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Author Topic: Capillary Force Pump  (Read 20637 times)

Offline vineet_kiran

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Capillary Force Pump
« on: February 23, 2012, 11:19:27 AM »
 
Pumping water using capillary and centrifugal forces

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Capillary Force Pump
« on: February 23, 2012, 11:19:27 AM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 02:06:50 PM »

Pumping water using capillary and centrifugal forces
The capillary effect is also present at the outlets, resisting the water from flowing out of the outlets. The rotation will help, but Coriolis effect will also resist rotation. How much is depending on the mass flow.


Vidar

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2012, 07:25:18 AM »
The capillary effect is also present at the outlets, resisting the water from flowing out of the outlets. The rotation will help, but Coriolis effect will also resist rotation. How much is depending on the mass flow.


Vidar

@Vidar,
 
Capillary  force is a very  weak  force   and  centrifugal  force  is  strong  force  hence  water  will be ejected out  of  capillary  tube  at  lower  speeds.     The effect  of  coriolis  force  at lower speeds  is negligible.
If   you want  to  verify  this  experiment,      just   soak   a sponge  in water,   fix it  to  some shaft  or   stick  at center  and  rotate  the  sponge.     You can see  water  ejecting  out  of sponge  at lower  speeds.     Effect  of coriolis force  at  that  speed is negligible.
 
Vineet.K.
 
 

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2012, 07:25:18 AM »
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Offline synthesis

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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 12:03:53 PM »

@Vidar,
 
Capillary  force is a very  weak  force   and  centrifugal  force  is  strong  force  hence  water  will be ejected out  of  capillary  tube  at  lower  speeds.     The effect  of  coriolis  force  at lower speeds  is negligible.
If   you want  to  verify  this  experiment,      just   soak   a sponge  in water,   fix it  to  some shaft  or   stick  at center  and  rotate  the  sponge.     You can see  water  ejecting  out  of sponge  at lower  speeds.     Effect  of coriolis force  at  that  speed is negligible.
 
Vineet.K.
 
 
The same can be said about the capillary effect. It is negligble in both ends. So there is no point in using the capillary effect to anything useful. And you do not gain anything by putting the system into rotation.
The capillary effect will help fluids to enter the tube with a given force. The same force is preventing the fluids to exit. The rotation will make this device into a solely centrifugal pump. These pumps can move fluid with energy input. The energy is used to pump fluids upwards. If the pump is able to move a significant amount of fluid, the Coriolis effect will be as much significant.
No gain. Sorry.


Vidar

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 12:03:53 PM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2012, 04:39:18 PM »
The same can be said about the capillary effect. It is negligble in both ends. So there is no point in using the capillary effect to anything useful. And you do not gain anything by putting the system into rotation.
The capillary effect will help fluids to enter the tube with a given force. The same force is preventing the fluids to exit. The rotation will make this device into a solely centrifugal pump. These pumps can move fluid with energy input. The energy is used to pump fluids upwards. If the pump is able to move a significant amount of fluid, the Coriolis effect will be as much significant.
No gain. Sorry.
 

Mr.Vidar,
 
It is surprising  that you are unable  to  differentiate  between  a centrifugal  pump and pump which I have drawn.
The energy  equation of centrifugal  pump is as follows :
Total head   =  Suction  head  +  delivery  head  +  loss  of head due  friction,  bends etc.
In the pump  what I have drawn :
Suction head =  0       Because  water is lifted  by  capillary  force
Delivery  head  = 0     Because  water  is ejected  at  same height  of capillary  lift and  no additional  head  is added.
Loss of  head due to friction is negligible considering   the  length of tube.
 
Once   the  inertia  of tubes  is overcome, the  energy required to  keep it rotating  is negligible,   that’s  what  the energy  motor  consumes.
Even  this  system  can be made ‘gainful’    if you apply  your thought.
 
 
 


 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 11:30:05 AM »

Mr.Vidar,
 
It is surprising  that you are unable  to  differentiate  between  a centrifugal  pump and pump which I have drawn.
The energy  equation of centrifugal  pump is as follows :
Total head   =  Suction  head  +  delivery  head  +  loss  of head due  friction,  bends etc.
In the pump  what I have drawn :
Suction head =  0       Because  water is lifted  by  capillary  force
Delivery  head  = 0     Because  water  is ejected  at  same height  of capillary  lift and  no additional  head  is added.
Loss of  head due to friction is negligible considering   the  length of tube.
 
Once   the  inertia  of tubes  is overcome, the  energy required to  keep it rotating  is negligible,   that’s  what  the energy  motor  consumes.
Even  this  system  can be made ‘gainful’    if you apply  your thought.
 
I understand the concept, but I think you have overlooked something important.


Let me comment: The capillary effect will rise the fluids to the same level as the centrifuge. No problem this far. Let us say that the capillary effect rise 1kg water, 1 meter up. That will result in a 2 meter capillary tube with a cross section of 0.5cm^2 to raise the mass 1m in average. That would be 1J of "free" energy. The capillary tube will also, with the same effect, prevent the fluids from escaping the tube 2 meters up. You need at least 1J of input energy in order to reach the point where fluids starts to flow. Then you have gained nothing.
Next is to let the fluid flow. Then you have to add even more energy in order to start the mass flow. The Coriolis effect can be partially countered by tangential nozzles that points in opposite direction of rotation.


An imaginary experiment:
If the capillary tube is able to lift fluids 2 meters up. What happens if you cut the tube in half? Will the fluid start to poor out on the top and fall back into the tank? The answer is probably no.


Vidar

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 11:30:05 AM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 12:56:37 PM »
I understand the concept, but I think you have overlooked something important.


Let me comment: The capillary effect will rise the fluids to the same level as the centrifuge. No problem this far. Let us say that the capillary effect rise 1kg water, 1 meter up. That will result in a 2 meter capillary tube with a cross section of 0.5cm^2 to raise the mass 1m in average. That would be 1J of "free" energy. The capillary tube will also, with the same effect, prevent the fluids from escaping the tube 2 meters up. You need at least 1J of input energy in order to reach the point where fluids starts to flow. Then you have gained nothing.
Next is to let the fluid flow. Then you have to add even more energy in order to start the mass flow. The Coriolis effect can be partially countered by tangential nozzles that points in opposite direction of rotation.


An imaginary experiment:
If the capillary tube is able to lift fluids 2 meters up. What happens if you cut the tube in half? Will the fluid start to poor out on the top and fall back into the tank? The answer is probably no.


Vidar

 
@Vidar,
 
If  capillary  tube rises  water  to a height  of  1 meter,    it  has to be ejected  at  1 meter  height only.  ( I did not  understand  what  is 2 meters  height)
I  think  you are simply getting  confused  with  force  and  energy.       Water  is lifted  up  by  natural  capillary  force and  not  energy.     Same  force  prevents  water  from  falling  down  hence  no energy  transaction  is  involved.      The  potential  energy   of water raised  in  capillary  tube   is  zero.      Hence  you  need  just  another   force  (not   energy)   to  pull  this water out.        Centrifugal  force   is  a imaginary  or  pseudo  force  which  depends  mainly  on radius  of rotation  and not  on input energy to the  motor   and also  many  times  stronger   than  the  capillary  force.      Hence  centrifugal  force   ejects  the  water  out.      In  the total  process there will not  be  any energy  transaction.     Only  when  the  water  is  ejected out  of the  tube,   it (water)  gains  potential energy  with  respect  to  earth (ground)
 

The  equation  is  as simple  as this  :   Water  is lifted  by  a weak force  (not energy),   ejected out  by another  strong force  (not  energy)   and  gains  potential  energy  with respect to  a third  force  (gravity)  after  ejection.
 

Force  alone  is not  energy   but  difference  of force  (potential  difference)   is  equivalent  to  energy.
 

Vineet.K.
 

P.S.  :   I have  got  one doubt  :   How  does  a  tree  lift  water  to  a height  more  than 100 meters?
 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 07:08:27 PM »
I think you have a special idea. Try it out in practice, and see if theory corresponds with reality.


A tree is a living organism. Energy from the sun, surrounding moist, living cells, and extremely narrow capillary tubes are involved in the process of lifting water 100 meters up.


Vidar

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 07:08:27 PM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2012, 04:14:53 AM »
I think you have a special idea. Try it out in practice, and see if theory corresponds with reality.


A tree is a living organism. Energy from the sun, surrounding moist, living cells, and extremely narrow capillary tubes are involved in the process of lifting water 100 meters up.


Vidar

 
 
@Vidar,
 
I  have  already  tried that  experiment .    I  did not  get a 90 degree bent  capillary tube hence  I used  a  90 degree bent plastic tube  packed  with  cotton.     Water  did  eject  out  of the tube  but in less  quantity  because  cotton absorbs  water  slowly   in less quantities.    That  is the  reason  why I  have  mentioned that  the experiment  is not of  any practical use.
There  are trees  which  grow  up to   400mtrs height.    So far  no satisfactory  explanation has been given  as to  how  trees  lift  water to  such a height.    Solar  energy, capillary  forces cannot  lift water to such a height.
 
 Vineet.K.

Offline konduct

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 09:55:33 AM »
You are right...the tallest trees don't actually get their water from the roots and capillary system. They absorb it from the clouds that pass through their tall canopies. Just watched a tv program about these in the rain forests. They get their moisture from the air around the canopies...their may be some reverse capillary effect there though? Where the roots don't reach in the middle, the moisture from the leaves could travel "down" to? No idea if that's the actual case.

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 09:55:33 AM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 03:29:10 PM »

 No idea if that's the actual case.


@konduct
 
 
The following website has some information about it :
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylem
 
Vineet.K.
 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 03:58:47 PM »
I just imagined Vineet digging up a tree from the ground, and put it on a turntable. That had been quite a sight :-))

Vidar

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 05:37:36 AM »
 
 

@Vidar,
 
That is really  not  a joke.       Instead  of turning a tree on a table,  the   capillary force pump  (sketch which I have drawn)  itself  can be used  to lift  water to a considerable height  by  using  several  such capillary tube  arrangements  on  a lengthy  vertical shaft   with  collecting  trays  in between.    This  allows  water  to be lifted  in  several  stages.     Keeping  several  such arrangements  on a  single  shaft  will  make  the  system heavy  but  once  the  inertia of the  system  is overcome,   the energy  required  to keep the  system  rotating  will be very less.      Instead  of evaporation  process  as used  by tree  you will  be using  centrifugal  force to maintain  the  flow  of water.     The  idea  is very simple.   Capillary  forces neutralize  gravity  force  making  potential  energy of water  zero  even  at elevated heights   (in stages) so that it can be easily ejected out using another force.
I personally  feel   that  lifting  of  water  by tall  trees  is  a  straight forward  and  natural  case  of  over  unity.     
 
Vineet.K.
 
 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Capillary Force Pump
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2012, 10:49:13 AM »
 
 

@Vidar,
 
That is really  not  a joke.       Instead  of turning a tree on a table,  the   capillary force pump  (sketch which I have drawn)  itself  can be used  to lift  water to a considerable height  by  using  several  such capillary tube  arrangements  on  a lengthy  vertical shaft   with  collecting  trays  in between.    This  allows  water  to be lifted  in  several  stages.     Keeping  several  such arrangements  on a  single  shaft  will  make  the  system heavy  but  once  the  inertia of the  system  is overcome,   the energy  required  to keep the  system  rotating  will be very less.      Instead  of evaporation  process  as used  by tree  you will  be using  centrifugal  force to maintain  the  flow  of water.     The  idea  is very simple.   Capillary  forces neutralize  gravity  force  making  potential  energy of water  zero  even  at elevated heights   (in stages) so that it can be easily ejected out using another force.
I personally  feel   that  lifting  of  water  by tall  trees  is  a  straight forward  and  natural  case  of  over  unity.     
 
Vineet.K.
First of all. I hope you let the trees grow without digging them up :-). The energy from the sun plays an important role of what a tree is capable of when it regards lifting water more than 9.82 meters above ground. The cells that is indirectly (and probably also directly) powered by the energy from the sun, will make it happen. I "assume" that there is no overunity involved in a living tree. However, I do not fully understands the mechanisms in a living tree, so I take my assumtions with a pinch of salt.


Vidar

 

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