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Author Topic: Magnetic Engine  (Read 31893 times)

Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2015, 03:05:00 PM »

I was still updating my post before your reply but in fact, the shields will repel themselves for a segment of the magnets due to the field traveling in the same direction through the shields.



It depends on the thickness of the shield used.   If you use very thick shield, both poles get totally neutralized and you don't see any magnetic effect at all!!!   

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2015, 03:05:00 PM »

Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2015, 08:23:35 PM »
Newton II:
A thick shield to totally redirect the field is what is required.
The shield will pull itself over the magnet and stop.
Then the shield must be moved further over the magnet to extend past the final edge of the magnet so all field is contained.
Moving the shield further onto the magnet takes little force.
Once two sets are then placed tight at the shields and the magnets are moved tight together, the shield will separate to expose repelling magnets.
If the repelling magnets move apart, the shields will pull themselves back over the magnets and must be latched at this point to prevent this action.
 
But in the end, the process appears to be a cycle.
I have done this experiment several times so I already know this is what happens.
I was only throwing it out there because it seems to be an exception that may be showing something useful.

Offline truesearch

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2015, 08:55:52 PM »
@lumen:


Can you give the measurements of both the shields and magnets that you experimented with for the effect in your diagram in post http://www.overunity.com/11994/magnetic-engine/msg440471/#msg440471


Thanks!


truesearch

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2015, 08:55:52 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2015, 09:25:17 PM »
@lumen:


Can you give the measurements of both the shields and magnets that you experimented with for the effect in your diagram in post http://www.overunity.com/11994/magnetic-engine/msg440471/#msg440471


Thanks!


truesearch

I know the magnets were 3/4" cube but I need to dig up the shield which I'm thinking was about .062 wall but I'll find them.
 

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2015, 07:51:18 AM »
 Video at :

http://youtu.be/kOQYEzIhTqU

You can see that when a roller is used below the shield, it can be easily moved over a uniform magnetic field causing 'ON' and 'OFF' of the flux w.r.t.  another repelling magnet.  I have used a big steel ball and gap is more but even if you use a smaller steel ball you will get the same result.

If you don't use a roller and just slide the shield on magnet, it causes tremendous loss of energy due magnetic attraction.

Using a roller (not wheel) below a moving body is a very interesting phenomenon.  Best example is Egyptians lifted very huge and heavy stones up the pyramid using rollers!

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2015, 07:51:18 AM »
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Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2015, 09:43:31 AM »
Steel ball and steel shield are in repulsion because flux flows through them in one direction from bottom magnet. That is the reason for free movement of shield on the steel ball.  Shield will be held to the ball because it experiences more attractive force from the bottom magnet than repulsive force from the ball.

So, if you make repulsive force between ball and shield equal to attractive force between shield and magnet, then you can move shield without experiencing any force!!! (infact some friction force is required to keep roller in  motion)



Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2015, 03:09:49 PM »
So, if you make repulsive force between ball and shield equal to attractive force between shield and magnet, then you can move shield without experiencing any force!!! (infact some friction force is required to keep roller in  motion)


That condition can be achieved just be arranging magnets without using roller itself.   Have a look at the attachment.

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2015, 03:09:49 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2015, 06:24:49 PM »
Steel ball and steel shield are in repulsion because flux flows through them in one direction from bottom magnet. That is the reason for free movement of shield on the steel ball.  Shield will be held to the ball because it experiences more attractive force from the bottom magnet than repulsive force from the ball.

This is not accurate.  What is shown here in that video, no matter how you orient the magnet, the fields will induce in the same direction.
causing Attraction, not repulsion.  follow

magnet [N : S ] -> [N(ball)S] -> [N(steel)S]  OR   magnet [S : N] -> [S(ball)N] -> [S(steel)N]

either way, you have N&s poles attracting each other.

the reasons there is a reduced force between them:
 is (1) because the lines ( or direction) of flux follows the shape of the materials.
The ball pulls the flux around itself back to the other side, center of magnetism is near the center of the ball.
   (not exactly at center, because its shifted towards the stronger field of the inducing magnet itself)

in the Steel - the poles are orientated in the same direction, however, the flux is pulled perpendicular to the tangent of the balls surface.
    this is because the steel is very thin, and long. the magnetism tries to travel the length of the steel.
       center of magnetism in the steel is the center of the thickness, but the outer edges of the loop are stretched down the length

also, the attraction point of magnetism in a sphere is a small point tangent to the surface. weaker magnets like the ceramic ferrite shown here,
do not attract the ball very much and it rolls rather freely. a neo will hold it a little stronger, but it still doesn't take much force to move the ball.
The strength of the (induced) field itself in the sphere, will depend on the mass of the magnetizing material, and the strength of the inducing field (magnet).
    However, the attraction force, is only a fraction of that at or near the contact-point, as a result of tangential surface area.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2015, 07:22:52 PM »

Magnetic Engine using permanent magnets
I have experimented with something similar a few years ago.


First off: A uniform magnetic field does not attract or repel anything.
Second: If the magnets is repelling eachother, it is harder to remove the iron plate than put it in place when the small magnet is not present.


Some how, the energy you gain by sync. the shielding, will be taken back by removing the iron plate. It's true. I have tried.

Edit: I have already replied to this Feb. 10.th...  :o

Vidar

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2015, 07:22:52 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2015, 07:35:37 PM »
Basic rule for magnetic field redirection (shielding)
1: Magnets in repulsion = Strong attraction to shield
2: Magnets in attraction = Little attraction to shield
 
 
 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2015, 08:18:13 PM »
Here are some consideration you should note:
1- use a shield like mumetal not steel.  Steel in close proximity to a magnet becomes a magnet itself.
2- the shield surface area or size should extend to cover the magnetic field of the magnet to be shielded not the magnet itself.  Meaning the shield should be at least 6 times or more bigger than the magnet to be shielded. 
3- use polymer wheels not steel.  Reduce the attraction to the magnet (Less work).
4- use mechanical gears to synchronize the movement of shield and piston.  Timing is everything.
Goodluck
1. Mumetal is good. It does not as much as iron become magnetized, but it will not make any practical outcome of the experiment.
2. Is 6 times larger something you have experimentet with, or is it just an example of the shields size?
3. Agree. At least something non magnetic.
4. Gears are better than belt transmission - even if the belt has teeth. Less friction with gears, but the timing part will not change the outcome of the system.


Vidar

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2015, 08:18:13 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2015, 01:24:59 AM »
6 times may be a useful estimate, using certain magnets, but "field size", and field strength are two entirely different concepts.

Using only one test material of magnets, you may find a relationship between the size of the field and the strength of the magnets to be
somewhat proportional, for instance, a stronger magnet of the same type will produce a "larger" field.

But, different materials have completely different effects.
for instance, when you compare a ceramic ferrite magnet, to let's say a neo.
the ceramic ferrite will have a much larger "field size" than the neo, but much lower "strength".

The magnetic equations predict the relationship of field strength with the square of the distance from the magnet. This holds true in most cases, as the field itself is in fact infinite in size, ever-reducing in strength. What the equations are actually referring to is an EMF, not a magnetized material.

But in practice, we examine what is called the "effective field", and this is what is usually referred to as its "size"
    meaning the spatial area (volume) consumed by the field at a strength at which it "affects" the materials we are experimenting with.
    i.e. attraction or repulsion.

The field domains are much tighter in a stronger neo magnet, therefore the "effective field" will be much more compact.
  While in a ceramic ferrite, the field domains are loose, and the "effective field" will cover a larger volume of space.


It is also important to note, that when shielding a magnetic field, you greatly alter its shape and effective size. This is caused by the field domains entering into the shield material. Sometimes this can produce stray magnetic domains projected far outside the test area, or reduce the domains to far inside the expected volume of space. And often does so in a non-symmetrical manner.


Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2015, 03:33:09 AM »
This is not accurate.  What is shown here in that video, no matter how you orient the magnet, the fields will induce in the same direction.
causing Attraction, not repulsion.  follow

magnet [N : S ] -> [N(ball)S] -> [N(steel)S]  OR   magnet [S : N] -> [S(ball)N] -> [S(steel)N]



May be you are right.   But what I feel is,  when you keep a steel ball on a magnet, same type of flux coming from bottom magnet covers entire surface of ball inducing one type of pole on the entire surface of ball and opposite pole will be concentrated at the inside mass centre of the ball.  In this case the concentrated pole at the centre will be stronger than pole on the entire surface which is distributed over larger surface area!!!  (not sure)




Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2015, 03:49:11 AM »

May be you are right.   But what I feel is,  when you keep a steel ball on a magnet, same type of flux coming from bottom magnet covers entire surface of ball inducing one type of pole on the entire surface of ball and opposite pole will be concentrated at the inside mass centre of the ball.  In this case the concentrated pole at the centre will be stronger than pole on the entire surface which is distributed over larger surface area!!!  (not sure)

IF that were the case, than making a "monopole" would be that simple, unfortunately it is not.
here is a drawing to visualize what actually takes place when you stick a steel ball onto a magnet.
you can see this by bringing another magnet near the other side of the ball and experimenting with the attraction and repulsion forces of the two poles. When you roll the ball around, the pole orientation stays pretty much the same, changing the internal flux through the ball material.

Offline CANGAS

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2015, 05:13:48 AM »
1. Mumetal is good. It does not as much as iron become magnetized, but it will not make any practical outcome of the experiment.
2. Is 6 times larger something you have experimentet with, or is it just an example of the shields size?
3. Agree. At least something non magnetic.
4. Gears are better than belt transmission - even if the belt has teeth. Less friction with gears, but the timing part will not change the outcome of the system.


Vidar



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_%28mechanical%29

The mechanical engineering rule of thumb is that:

A gear drives loses 10% of input power to friction each time that one gear meshes with another.

A film belt drive loses 2% in each case of one belt connecting two pulleys.

A flat belt drive loses 2% in each case of one belt connecting two pulleys.

A toothed timing belt drive loses 2% in each case of one belt connecting two pulleys.

A v belt drive...Fugget about it.

A chain drive loses 1% to 10% in each case of one chain connecting two sprockets, depending of course on the condition of the setup.


You are welcome
CANGAS 145

 

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