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Author Topic: Magnetic Engine  (Read 31894 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2012, 01:02:33 PM »

 
 
@gauschor,
 
All the above problems can be overcome by correctly timing,  machining of various parts, selecting correct thickness and weight of  the shield,  strength of magnets etc.
 
I conducted the above experiment by suspending the piston magnet like pendulam and allowed it to fall towards stationary magnet by gravity.   I  could move the shield without encountering  any of the problems you have stated above.   I  couldnot build a genuine model because I don't have proper machining / fabrication facilities.
 
 
Regards,
 
Vineet.K.
If you change the timing, you will also change the kinetic energy at that timing also. That change will have inpact on the rest of the system that will counteract the benefit of correct timing - so the machine will not work anyways.


Br.


Vidar

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2012, 01:02:33 PM »

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2012, 05:04:07 AM »
Nuclear power stations is using the potential energy inside an unstable isotop. The energy will reduce the isotops mass, but remember that 1gram of mass is enough to power 1500 average housholds for one year (given that there is no loss). Litterally a grape that is converted to pure energy will power your house for 1500 years. Nuclear reactions is different from magnetism.

 
Same thing is applicable to field also.   De-magnetisation only means dis-alignment of molecular magnets and not loss of magnetism.   Magnetism still exists in a demagnetised magnet  but magnetism of individual molecular magnets cancel off  one another due to dis-alignment.    When field is completely  converted into energy it should produce same effect as complete conversion of mass into energy because mass and field are real and equivalent.
Whether mass has jumped out of field or matter produces field is not known.  It is same as chicken & egg  case.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2012, 12:28:09 PM »

 
Same thing is applicable to field also.   De-magnetisation only means dis-alignment of molecular magnets and not loss of magnetism.   Magnetism still exists in a demagnetised magnet  but magnetism of individual molecular magnets cancel off  one another due to dis-alignment.    When field is completely  converted into energy it should produce same effect as complete conversion of mass into energy because mass and field are real and equivalent.
Whether mass has jumped out of field or matter produces field is not known.  It is same as chicken & egg  case.
No need to discuss this further I think. Permanent magnets cannot do more work than the energy applied to them when magnetized.



Vidar

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2012, 12:28:09 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 11:03:38 PM »
... Magnetism is a force, but nuclear reactions produce energy. Distinguish energy from force. Energy is a product that can do work. Force is not a product. Force alone cannot do work.

While the force of magnetism is often used to described the phenomena, as is force used to describe gravity.. This is not its only aspect.
This force exists along a gradient with the square of the distance from the magnetic source. This creates a well of potential energy.
Similar to the energy equation for gravitational potential (mgh), from a given "height" from the magnet, you have an amount of potential energy that exists.
Whether you are discussing attraction, or repulsion, at any given distance from a magnet, there exists a definable amount of potential energy, that can be used to perform "work". This is described in terms of Force, (N), in solitude. However, when this force is applied to a mass (m), the equation N * m = J(derived) = joules of energy. Of course, there are magnetic equations that describe the actual value of J, as a function of Gauss or Teslas, between the magnet and the object in it's field.

Force, alone, is not what a magnetic field "is". It's a potential well. Full of energy. This energy exists in a loop, which is why we have trouble accessing it. Action, and reaction, will add/take away the opposite to any affect we cause to the magnetic field, under most circumstances.
This is not always the case, but can be generalized as a rule of thumb. "What goes up, must come down...."

if you place an object in a magnetic field, there exists a potential energy, from that point in the field to, either:
 the magnet (attraction)   OR  a point far enough away that the field is diminished beyond effect (repulsion).

So, if you want to know how much "work" can be performed by a magnet, at a given distance from it::
you simply multiply the values for the magnetic moment and the field.
Each of these has their own equation to handle the discrete values, so it may not be as "simple" as it sounds,
but it is a value of energy, not merely a force as one would assume.


Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2015, 06:38:01 PM »
Through extensive shield testing there is an interesting effect I have seen that could warrant further testing.
Consider the pictures below.

In Frame
#1:  The shield will pull itself over the magnet and can be extended further past the magnet with little force.
#2: The magnets can move together with little force.
#3 The magnets and shields will stay in contact with the gap in magnets.
#4 Magnets can now be moved tight together with little force.
#5 *** Once the magnets are moved tight together, the shield will move itself apart when released.
#6 Magnets will repel each other away if shield is held in position to magnet.
 
Using what seems to be a self sustaining cycle from #1 to #5, is it possible to build a magnet motor?
This is the only process I know that may yield an energy gain using shields due to the fact that the shields will both pull themselves onto the magnets and move themselves off the magnets in a cycle.
 
 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 09:51:10 PM by lumen »

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2015, 06:38:01 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2015, 09:52:53 PM »
Through extensive shield testing there is an interesting effect I have seen that could warrant further testing.
Consider the pictures below.
The problem with this is that it is harder to slide away the shields at stage 5, after the magnets are pushed together in stage 4, than it takes to slide the same shields away when the magnets is already further apart - for example in stage 2.

Because when the magnets are together, more magnetic field is going through the shield.
When the magnets are apart, like in stage 2, the magnetic field is also traveling through air and not only through the shield.


Vidar

Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2015, 09:59:13 PM »
The problem with this is that it is harder to slide away the shields at stage 5, after the magnets are pushed together in stage 4, than it takes to slide the same shields away when the magnets is already further apart - for example in stage 2.

Because when the magnets are together, more magnetic field is going through the shield.
When the magnets are apart, like in stage 2, the magnetic field is also traveling through air and not only through the shield.


Vidar

Low-Q
I was still updating my post before your reply but in fact, the shields will repel themselves for a segment of the magnets due to the field traveling in the same direction through the shields.
If the shields are held at this point to the magnets, the magnets will then repel each other and once separated the shields will once again pull themselves over the magnets and the process can repeat.
 
I have done much testing with shields and understand what you are saying. That is why I say this was the only method I have seen that may be exploited for energy gain. (or not)
 
 

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2015, 09:59:13 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2015, 11:19:16 PM »
I suppose what this really means is the next logical experiment.
Because we know that the shields will repel and open due to like field repulsion that will in turn cause the magnets themselves to repel, that leads to the next test.
 
Suppose the shield is made of laminations that were separated from like field repulsion the same as a sheet spreader and of course would take some work to compress them together but in their compressed condition would form the "U" shield.
 
Now, when we move the magnets together and the field strength increases, the laminations would simply repel harder and not only that but once they separate on their own the magnet themselves will repel each other.
So not only is there an energy gain in the separating laminations, but also in the repelling of the magnets.
 

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2015, 11:21:57 PM »
I suppose what this really means is the next logical experiment.
Because we know that the shields will repel and open due to like field repulsion that will in turn cause the magnets themselves to repel, that leads to the next test.
 
Suppose the shield is made of laminations that were separated from like field repulsion and of course would take some work to compress them together but in their compressed condition would form the "U" shield.
 
Now, when we move the magnets together and the field strength increases, the laminations would simply repel harder and not only that but once they separate on their own the magnet themselves will repel each other.
So not only is there an energy gain in the separating laminations, but also in the repelling of the magnets.

Where does this energy gain come from?  The magnetic force?  Force is not energy.

Bill

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2015, 11:21:57 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2015, 11:30:21 PM »
Where does this energy gain come from?  The magnetic force?  Force is not energy.

Bill

Very true, but force over distance is energy.
 

Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2015, 12:17:03 AM »
Based on the principal of some self removing shield, one might consider an engine design something like this where the laminated shield could be compressed or expanded along the same axis as the magnet moves and tied to the same operating component so both forces work together in unison.
 
 

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2015, 12:17:03 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2015, 12:40:24 AM »
Or the design could be arranged in the direction where the forces in the laminated area of the shield are known to expand with enough force to separate the shield after the magnets are moved together.
 
The expanding laminated shield is a new untested design where a solid "U" shield is already known to work.
However, logically if the forces are sufficient to separate a solid shield, one might try to optimize the effect by laminating the shield.

Offline superhero

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2015, 06:18:31 PM »

Magnetic Engine using permanent magnets

Here are some consideration you should note:
1- use a shield like mumetal not steel.  Steel in close proximity to a magnet becomes a magnet itself.
2- the shield surface area or size should extend to cover the magnetic field of the magnet to be shielded not the magnet itself.  Meaning the shield should be at least 6 times or more bigger than the magnet to be shielded. 
3- use polymer wheels not steel.  Reduce the attraction to the magnet (Less work).
4- use mechanical gears to synchronize the movement of shield and piston.  Timing is everything.
Goodluck

Offline superhero

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2015, 06:32:07 PM »
K

Offline shylo

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2015, 12:24:05 AM »
use tapered steel to cause progressive motion, you can make magnets climb hills.
no force to overcome to enter the track ,and let gravity provide the force to exit.
artv

 

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