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Author Topic: Magnetic Engine  (Read 31790 times)

Offline vineet_kiran

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Magnetic Engine
« on: February 10, 2012, 02:34:41 PM »
 
Magnetic Engine using permanent magnets

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Magnetic Engine
« on: February 10, 2012, 02:34:41 PM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 07:48:39 PM »
It requires energy to remove the shield from the magnets. There is a connection between the forces and how they are distributed as you change the conditions during the loop. Forces are just "moved around" without actually doing any work.
The shield works well, but unfortunatly the shield is magnetic too and is a part of the system that works against what the piston is suppose to do.


Vidar

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 03:58:45 AM »
 
@Vidar
 
It is true that you have to apply energy to remove sheilds from the magnets.  But this comes into picture only when there is potential difference in the area of movement of shield.  A  shield tries to move from region of lesser flux density to a stronger region.   You can move a shield without spending energy (other than to overcome friction) in a uniform magnetic field which will not have  potential difference.   
 
In the system what I have drawn a potential differnece will still be created when small magnet(piston) comes closer to the  stationary magnet.  But the force you have to apply on the shield to overcome this P.D.  is less compared to repulsive force which piston experiences from stationary magnet which is product of strength of both poles ( H1*H2 / d square)
 
I am not quite sure of the above theory but while working with magnets I observed that a shield can be moved freely in a uniform magnetic field espesially using wheels or rollers.  Without rollers the system will not work.
 
 
Regards,
 
Vineet.K.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 03:31:51 PM by vineet_kiran »

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 03:58:45 AM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 06:23:22 AM »
there are ways to shield on one side, and not have a major impact on a magnetic field on the other side.
Such shielding takes place in microwaves and harddrives.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 11:04:18 PM »
Well, whatever one might do with magnets, they all have a fixed set of magnetic lines (just for imaginary reference). These lines will be the same in number all the time, but over time the numbers are distributed differently at any given conditions of the machine - densed there, and less dense over here. Through a shield, or repelled by another magnet - whatever condition, you've got the same number of magnetic lines. What you gain in one situation will be lost in another, just because the number of magnetic lines did not change over that period of time. You are given a conservative amount of magnetism, that's all you've got, and it's constant in any situation. How can it be possible to maken an all magnet motor that works under these conditions?


Vidar

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 11:04:18 PM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 05:42:08 AM »
Well, whatever one might do with magnets, they all have a fixed set of magnetic lines (just for imaginary reference). These lines will be the same in number all the time, but over time the numbers are distributed differently at any given conditions of the machine - densed there, and less dense over here. Through a shield, or repelled by another magnet - whatever condition, you've got the same number of magnetic lines. What you gain in one situation will be lost in another, just because the number of magnetic lines did not change over that period of time. You are given a conservative amount of magnetism, that's all you've got, and it's constant in any situation. How can it be possible to maken an all magnet motor that works under these conditions?


Vidar

 
@Vidar
 
 
 
That is applicable for everything in the universe.   Mass also remains constant throughout a given period of time.   It aquires energy due to its position, velocity,  difference of forces acting on it  etc.    Mass can also be converted into energy as per a famous equation.   When it is possible to convert mass into energy,  it should also be possible to convert field into energy since field is as real and universal as matter.     Can any scientist  explain what is matter and what is field?
 
Vineet.K. 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 06:39:31 PM »
when Vidar speaks of the number of "field lines", this an arbitrary value, observed only by the effects of the field on another object. (i.e. magnetic viewer, gaussometer, ect.) What this really is refering to,
is the strength of the field itself. The Magnetic Amplitude, of the combined, alligned atomic radiation.
This field does radiate, though it is not generally percievable through mechanical interactions with matter.
And as such,. from a classical perspective, the field is considered "stationary".
 
It is easy to close your Box at this point, and blind yourself to all the possibilities, because you refuse to change your perspective view of a particular situation. It is like a man peering out the window contrasting what he sees to that of a man looking down at the entire planet from space.
 
From the man in space, there is a round mass, with a smaler mass orbiting around it, in what appears to be a semi-perpetual structure of interacting forces.
 
But the guy looking out his bedroom window sees a thunderstorm, lightning, and all sorts of other things going on around him.
 
It is great to ask the question -  "how could this be done?"
 
    But if you then close your mind to the answer, and instead hang yourself up on what you think is "impossible",  It is at that point, that your knowledge and understanding stops growing....
 
 

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 06:39:31 PM »
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Offline gauschor

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 06:48:41 PM »
Interesting setup. I think the most tricky part is to synchronize the movement of the flywheel with that of the shielding plate. Btw. I guess the flywheel would lose energy while passing either by
1) the solid shield - holding the moving magnet back resulting in cogging
2) the repelling pole - which the moving magnet needs to overcome first before it profits from the "push"

I don't think it's possible to get at a point where the pole of one magnet is at a position where only a repulsion accelerating the moving magnet in the "right direction" will take place (so says the experience unfortunately).

cyber19

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 07:32:48 PM »
Start with a multi piston radial inside a flywheel with magnets extending over the top of the piston. The 1st 30 degree section of magnets is opposite poles to pull the piston UP then a gap very close to the piston Top Dead Center then a 30 degree section of LIKE poles to push the piston down. Adjust the position of the flywheel for timing the magnets to the piston position.

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 07:32:48 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 11:21:41 PM »

 
@Vidar
 
 
 
That is applicable for everything in the universe.   Mass also remains constant throughout a given period of time.   It aquires energy due to its position, velocity,  difference of forces acting on it  etc.    Mass can also be converted into energy as per a famous equation.   When it is possible to convert mass into energy,  it should also be possible to convert field into energy since field is as real and universal as matter.     Can any scientist  explain what is matter and what is field?
 
Vineet.K.
Yes, mass can be converted into energy, but that also means that mass is loosed. You can get energy out of a magnet, but that means the cost is to loose magnetism. What use do you have of a non magnetic magnet which has released all its potential energy into work?


Vidar

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 12:29:24 PM »
Interesting setup. I think the most tricky part is to synchronize the movement of the flywheel with that of the shielding plate. Btw. I guess the flywheel would lose energy while passing either by
1) the solid shield - holding the moving magnet back resulting in cogging
2) the repelling pole - which the moving magnet needs to overcome first before it profits from the "push"

I don't think it's possible to get at a point where the pole of one magnet is at a position where only a repulsion accelerating the moving magnet in the "right direction" will take place (so says the experience unfortunately).

 
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@gauschor
 
Synchronization  can be achieved  easily  by using  a  90 degree cam.     Example  of such a cam is available  in the  following   website.       
 http://www.technologystudent.com/cams/camdex.htm
When piston comes back  ( when moves towards  stationary magnet)   it will not experience  any force  because  the cam  lifts  the shield  which in turn absorbs  the  flux  of  stationary  magnet   eliminating  repulsion.         When   piston magnet  comes   close to the  stationary magnet,       the  shield falls   due to 90 degree  fall  in the cam   exposing   the  repulsive  face of the  stationary  magnet   which  suddenly  repels  piston  magnet  with huge force.
 
If  you build  the engine  based  on this design,  you may  have  to  attach  non-magnetic  weights  on the rear  sides  of  the shield   which  makes  it  to fall  at 90 degree position of the cam.       The  energy gained  by flywheel  during  repulsion will  be  enough  to  lift the  shield  slowly again,   when  piston magnet  moves  away  from the    stationary   magnet.
Synchronisation   can also  be achieved   by  connecting    the shield  to  a quick  return  mechanism.    In that  case  you need   not  use  weights   on the shield.
 
Regards
 
Vineet.K.
 
 
 
 

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 12:29:24 PM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 12:34:25 PM »
Yes, mass can be converted into energy, but that also means that mass is loosed. You can get energy out of a magnet, but that means the cost is to loose magnetism. What use do you have of a non magnetic magnet which has released all its potential energy into work?


Vidar

 
What  is the use of  Nuclear Power Stations in which  mass is lost?
 
 
 

Offline gauschor

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2012, 06:00:26 PM »
@vineet_kiran: ah thanks for the hint, now I understand the setup completely. Nevertheless I think the problem remains:
First: the flywheel will lose energy by the transmission of the axis using the cam.
Second: The cam needs a considerable force to move the plate because the plate needs a counterweight to be pushed down.
Third: The cam needs even more power because the shield will be attracted to the solid magnets trying to hold the shields to its pole
Fourth: You still won't be able to get a point where the shield is only pushing the moving magnet in its direction: why?
Either the shield moves down too early => then the moving magnet is facing the same pole and you need to overcome the force of the opposing magnet first, before gaining a "push" in the right direction
Or the shield moves down too late, in which case the moving magnet will lose energy because he is getting attracted to the shield

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2012, 11:08:15 PM »

 
What  is the use of  Nuclear Power Stations in which  mass is lost?
Nuclear power stations is using the potential energy inside an unstable isotop. The energy will reduce the isotops mass, but remember that 1gram of mass is enough to power 1500 average housholds for one year (given that there is no loss). Litterally a grape that is converted to pure energy will power your house for 1500 years. Nuclear reactions is different from magnetism. Magnetism is a force, but nuclear reactions produce energy. Distinguish energy from force. Energy is a product that can do work. Force is not a product. Force alone cannot do work.


Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 05:22:08 AM »
@vineet_kiran: ah thanks for the hint, now I understand the setup completely. Nevertheless I think the problem remains:
First: the flywheel will lose energy by the transmission of the axis using the cam.
Second: The cam needs a considerable force to move the plate because the plate needs a counterweight to be pushed down.
Third: The cam needs even more power because the shield will be attracted to the solid magnets trying to hold the shields to its pole
Fourth: You still won't be able to get a point where the shield is only pushing the moving magnet in its direction: why?
Either the shield moves down too early => then the moving magnet is facing the same pole and you need to overcome the force of the opposing magnet first, before gaining a "push" in the right direction
Or the shield moves down too late, in which case the moving magnet will lose energy because he is getting attracted to the shield

 
 
@gauschor,
 
All the above problems can be overcome by correctly timing,  machining of various parts, selecting correct thickness and weight of  the shield,  strength of magnets etc.
 
I conducted the above experiment by suspending the piston magnet like pendulam and allowed it to fall towards stationary magnet by gravity.   I  could move the shield without encountering  any of the problems you have stated above.   I  couldnot build a genuine model because I don't have proper machining / fabrication facilities.
 
 
Regards,
 
Vineet.K.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

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