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Author Topic: What magnetism tests have been done?  (Read 11750 times)

Offline Fester

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What magnetism tests have been done?
« on: January 20, 2012, 03:51:19 PM »
I did some experimentation recently. I rigged up magnets with some duct tape to try and get an idea of force required for  separation  of magnets attracted at the face.
I used 1/4" by 1/8" disc magnets I purchased at Hobby Lobby. By using a sport drink bottle and water, 2 magnets attracted together required approx 20 oz of water to separate them. Next i tried the same fixed magnet but this time taped 2 magnets together in attraction to test for separation force. 2 magnets vs 1 magnet came out to 30 oz of water.
Now 20 oz of water is 591.58 grams and 30 oz is 887.22 grams. The sports drink bottle with tape is 40 grams. So 1 magnets was 639.58 grams and 2 magnets was 927.22 grams.

Now in effect by doubling the magnets the force required to escape did not double. 927.22 - 639.58 = 287.64. with a second magnet i added less than half of the original weight it needed to break a 1 on 1 magnet hold. My kitchen sink rig will not support a 3 magnet set up. I will actually need to construct something for the purposes of charting the mass needed to break the pull. i am hoping the diminishing return effect continues, to the point where a device could be build to abuse this property. The downside is using water when the system breaks free, it tends to slosh around while attempting to catch the container. If this continues I will have to measure them in an offset manner( like a staircase) as well, trying to get same side polarity to stick out for a chain pull. And then measure end forces.

3 variables are key to any design. Mass, Velocity, and breaking force. the kenetic energy equation has all of these built in. E sub k= 1/2 (M x Vsquared). And trying to get E sub k greater than the breaking force. If the magnets have diminishing returns, then the longer the track the more velocity and at somepoint velocity should eclipse the barrier in linear motion.

Does anyone else out there have raw data like this? Or maybe point me to a websitre that has the data?




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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 05:10:26 PM »
It sorta makes sense, the second magnet has a larger distance to the opposing one. Or, perhaps more accurate, the heart of the 2-stacked magnets is further away than it was with one.
 
If you'd use one wide magnet on one side, and mulpiple small ones side by side against it, your mileage might vary.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2012, 05:39:55 PM »
I might assert that you have to measure from the center of the magnetic masses rather than the faces... since the 1/r^2 falloff is technically from the center of (mass/charge/magnetic moment)?
And while you're at it, if you can confirm/deny that magnetic attraction is stronger than repulsion ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sUpFc-0yg0 ) would be great :)

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2012, 05:39:55 PM »
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Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2012, 06:41:45 PM »
Lets not jump too far ahead:D Attraction and repulsion is actually acceleration and deceleration. As a magnet approaches opposite pole, it goes from a weaker field to a stronger one and accelerates. Then it hits the sticky spot and decelerates as the opposed poles try to attract the object moving past. Most OU builds are done this way with attraction faces coming together. The difference is they actually dont touch as my testing is doing. So the force required to break the hold is actually less. So my 640 grams for a single magnet contacted with another magnet, using gravity, is quite a bit of joules when calculated. But non touching is less force. So with the same 640 gram mass ( if the magnets can pull it), would require less velocity, since the breaking force is lowered. In reality trying to get a stator to speed up to 9.8 m/second^2 is not an easy feat to match the same velocity of gravity.

As for measuring from center I have 24 -1/4 by 1/8 inch magnets if you line that many up in one big stack and put a magnet in the center(on the side of the cylinder), it takes almost no force to separate the magnet at the center compared to the ends. After i do all my end tests, I can try the same set up but breaking the center of the stack.
 I would have to theorize the diminishing return of weight is actually due to the fact the magnets are not 1 magnet. The faces being attracted to each other are actually reducing the over all force of the ends. Basically it takes some energy from the overall system to keep the stack together. the only application i could see resulting from my tests is a stack that attaches and then releases because  it could not support its own weight once energy it lost from the contact in forming a "new system". And I fear what such a device would actually do to the magnet since attaching is very close to impacting. And we all know how bad that is for magnets. Mind you this is all speculative till I get some more numbers done.

As for testing repulsion. The only rig I can think of would be a tube with a magnet( tube sitting vertically). And another tube introduced inside the first. With a magnet in repulsion inside of it. Both being fixed to their respective tube. the second tube could have a large container, for adding wet sand for example. Piling it up till the magnets contact. then measure the volume of its sand and calculate its weight. This would act much like compressing a spring.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2012, 07:50:00 PM »
Okay then the other bit of trivia I can add... (and ya I'm probably missing the ballpark entirely if where you're actually at)
 
while playing with the green magnetic field paper, there is a 'bubble' at the ends of the magnets, and if your magnets are smaller than this bubble, then adding more magnets will increase that strength, but more internally are diminishing returns...   Hmm I don't have great illustrations of this but
 
This is a 1"diamget by 1/4"high cylinder magnet on its edge
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=219204778100955&set=a.210482342306532.52736.100000343030096&type=3
This is the field on it which extends about the same as the radius of the magnet, if I therefore stack 5 together then they really stop contributing to the end field...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=219204634767636&set=a.210482342306532.52736.100000343030096&type=3
 
 

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2012, 07:50:00 PM »
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Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2012, 08:10:54 PM »
yeah the catch 22 of all this is every magnet is different. I dont have a magnetic viewer. But I would be curious to see a single cylinder field next to the same size cylinder comprised of smaller magnets, especially the lines it makes from end to center mass. But with every magnet being different, you solid magnet could be charged with 1.2 lbs of pulling force and the individual smaller ones might not have the same force . its something hard to prove given the randomness of the magnets creation. This is why I m doing weight tests.

the difference comes from the fact a single magnet is one piece everything about the magnet on the molecular level gives it its properties. Iron does not have a field untill you touch it to a magnet. then it becomes apart of the magnet. it gets its field impressed onto it. I dont think stacked magnets are that representation. They do not impress their fields on one other. They divert and contort the field. but in the end they are 2 fields stuck by attraction and the ends not touching have field diverted and contorted to them . Part of the field must be sapped to maintain the attraction. So the overall field should be getting smaller, with the end being boosted diminishing as more field is used to hold more magnets together. If my tests show a diminishing weight, Im still not certain if  it is proof of my theory as to why it happens.

Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 08:12:32 PM »
I cant really see anything in your pictures :X

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 08:12:32 PM »
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Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 02:37:27 PM »
After rereading what You and I have posted(Dex), I wanted to take a minute to re- explain the course I am going down. I never recognized your comment on the reduction of force from center mass of the magnet. I didnt mean to ignore that fact, it does play a part. But as I stated, a stack of magnets has to use energy from its field to stay together, otherwise they "should" fall apart. So in effect distance plus sapping field to maintain a stack will lead to a very strong end, as well as the minimal force to break the stack. You are in the ball park area of my thinking. If a stack of magnets has such a large force to pull, and very little force required to break it in half, could one not pull with the full force of the large stack. Now the only way to break that force is to use some of the momentum gained to break the center of the large stack. This would occur as the moving magnet approaches the sticky spot. I imagine some kind of hinged sleeve on the stack, Now force used to break the stack is now less because with a hinge we are using leverage. So now we have distance, overall field sapping, and leverage which should reduce the amount of energy to break the stack quite nicely. Once the stack is broken , the new lesser pull is decelerating the moving object much less than the original full strength pull used to accelerate. In a nutshell trying to conserve momentum. So imagine a track that is the initial velocity, and these large hinged magnets that attempt to boost acceleration as well as an attempt to conserve momentum at the same time. I hope I explained this well enough. I did not just want to go all willy nilly buying stuff and trying to make it happen. With the shear amount of magnets, I figured it was best to gather some data.

Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 07:57:38 PM »
I believe i stated a way I want to try and manipulate magnetic fields and the numerical effects shown in weight or a force. That is a magnetism test.

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 07:57:38 PM »
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Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2012, 11:12:39 PM »
@ microcontroller: If you actually read the posts, mass and weight are being used to test the maximum field strength of magnets in certain physical positions. Unless you know of some secret mystical way to test the strength of a magnetic field, there isnt another way. It is true a magnetic field technically is not apart of the magnet. but the field would not exist without the sub-atomic and the atomic structure of the magnet that created the field.  How do you get magnetism without a mass or a magnet?  My tests using weight( mass and gravity as a constant) are to find the limitations of the magnetic field.  I am a layman, and knit picking over a definition label, will really get you know where with me. Your 2 posts have brought nothing fruitful like Dex's posts have. 

Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 01:16:19 AM »
Yes magnetic field do exist on the atomic level etc etc. But 99% of them are balanced or atleast the pair up and form molecules. Magnetism in the form of a magnet is a moleculue that forms a magnetic field around it. The molecule is the mass. Hence a magnet.  A magnetic field just doesnt pop out of thin air. If it did the overunity mystery would be over.  You say a magnetic field exists without a mass. A magnetic field cant exist w/o some mass supporting it.   If you have the plans to create a magnetic field out of thin air with no mass, please do share it.. Every magnetic field I can buy at a store will have a mass attached to it.

Please go somewhere else your blithering drivel and lack of factual or even logical support, or lack of even a link to show some multi billion dollar experiment to support your claim. Trolling is not wanted in this topic.
If it bothers you that much about a term being used wrong get a moderator to change the header. But I am willing to bet they give less of a hoot than I do.

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 01:16:19 AM »
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Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 02:34:07 AM »
I suppose next you have a bridge to sell me, but you lost the deed to it too. Like I said previously I cant by a mass-less magnetic field. When I can, your blathering will have a point. But thus you say alot and have nothing to show for it thus far. Your mass less magnetic field is completely irrelevant, since it is not easily attainable to be used for the little overunity devices. You may be correct( giving you credit even though lack of proof), but still irrelevant. It doesnt matter what I believe or not, this is irrelevant also. I have what I can get to work with, and they all have mass. Your point is taken but mute as it is irrelevant. Now please go troll somewhere else.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 03:33:47 AM »
@ fester
 
If the magnetic material is exposed, and in direct contact with one another
  -- such is the case with ceramic ferrites, iron and soft iron magnets
The magnets act as one, and the results are much closer to the expected doubling in field strength.
 
In the case of coated magnets, like neodymium, and certain ceramics, or plastic coated magnets
 
There is no physical connection between the interface. and there lies a gap between each magnet that has to be taken into account in this type of experimentation.
 
 

Offline Fester

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2012, 03:36:36 AM »
I absolutely agree smokey. Would you also agree the field strength is lost from field being used to keep the stack attracted together?

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: What magnetism tests have been done?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2012, 04:09:53 AM »
I absolutely agree smokey. Would you also agree the field strength is lost from field being used to keep the stack attracted together?

In the case of coated magnets - Absolutely yes.
 
with magnets, where the magnetic material is in direct contact, then generally no, the field-lines through the interface transmit unrestricted and not much energy is lost at the interface.
 
 
 

 

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