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Author Topic: downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive  (Read 14231 times)

Offline hammuraby

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downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive
« on: December 08, 2011, 01:05:57 PM »
Hi all
I am trying to make an ultra efficent energy (elettro-hydraulic) accumulator for store the energy caming back from car elettric motor when it is braking....
basicly concept is like this :
but, much many time simpliest.

It act as a motorcicle fork, whit two stage work- "twin-system";
The first stage (as battery) where is working a big coil, that support heavy charge
Hi capacity but low reactivity.
and the second stage (as hydro) where is working a little dump for absorbing a street hole
low capacity but Hi-reactivity.

This pemermit to regenerate a 90% of braking energy, not heat a battery giving a long life..
Use a Pb bactery in place a NiH or LIi,  because the mass coust in starting, but give back in braking.
i will show how an usual (old) car can became hydrid, pure elettric w1/3 batt.pack, 4WD,
OR use a gallon for 120 mile! ! Need some help (or time) for translate...

Other ex. for a same basic compcet work(ing)

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Offline CompuTutor

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Re: downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2011, 04:21:08 AM »
I came back to note that I understood the post to indicate an EV

Quote: "elettro-hydraulic"

If I misunderstood, I'll correct it next post...


Your on the right track at least,
the most wasted energy during transportation is braking,
the second most is acceleration contrary to popular views.

The EV motor may be, say, 80% efficient as a reference,
but braking is 100% loss of available stored energy (momentum) !

One of the most efficient braking recovery systems tried
involved simple mechanical advantage storage, with a latch.

I'll use an analogy to make this simpler for the imagination.

Just like when you slowly release a standard's clutch to increase the coupling
from a source of energy (engine) to what needs energy applied to it (wheels),
think of a clutch from the source of energy (vehicle's momentum via wheels)
that is coupled to a series of induction gears to increase RPM output for storage.

Now take that higher RPM source of input of energy to be stored for re-use,
and wind up a large rotation-count spring storage medium (like a watch spring).

but unlike "Flywheel" ideas tried in commuter busses (which worked reasonably well...),
you "latch" said spring via an accumulation ratchet to store the energy indefinitely instead.

You paid into the system by recovering the momentum via braking-to-spring storage,
but the real trick is to not release it until you actually need to accelerate again instead.

Upon resuming acceleration (after a stop light, traffic, etc.) you release the stored energy
into a low-RPM/high-output generation device that augments the acceleration requirements.

This sounds to simple to be a serious implementation, but sadly, it really is...

energy stored, is energy available, minus conversion losses total.

But momentum  >to>  mechanical storage  >to>  electrical generation works fairly well.

With the previous affirmation of usefullness of concept,
an reworking this into your idea presented as an opener,
there is only weight and tension (spring) as reasonable choices.

Weight is eliminated due to this not being a stationary application,
direct generation to electricity is less efficient than mechanical storage,
so hydraulic to tension (spring) seems a very good starting framework.

I am intrigued about eliminating the gear induction phase above
by replacing it with mechanical advantage via hydraulic ratio conversion.

a "Pump" of a small output-to-RPM ratio connected to a larger linear ram
compressing an already available component like a coiled suspension spring,
would provide less loss during the energy recovery conversion process
than an old fashioned mechanical induction gearset to a windable spring.

Then only a hydraulic "Valve" needs to be actuated to recover stored energy
into an efficient motion to current generation system of some kind.

Interesting idea...

But the one thing that stood out to my, reminded me of a (youthfull) project.

It was a four-post chopper suspension concept that included the two-stage concept.

Except that while the fact that the lighter limited travel spring set kept the ride smooth,
the transition at the end of the limited travel to the heavier springs was a harsh transition.

I implemented a third "medium" set of springs at (both) the bottom and top of
the limited travel light spring set to transition to the heavy full travel springs.

Problem solved....

With those "three step" (as opposed to your two step) process of energy absorption,
the entire dynamic of the available energy to be dealt with was addressed.

That design's upgrade necessity points out an initial concept flaw
that also applies to this real-world concept you are persuing.

Like the bus flywheel idea that worked real well when NO traffic was in the way of it,
the real-world tests failed because the bus's were not allowed to come from full speed,
to a stopped condition allowing full storage of the available momentum available to it.

To be clear, braking conditions are not a static source without variables sadly.

So to finalize, a variable drive to the hydraulic input mechanism is required
to store real-world braking conditions that occur in most driving scenarios.

or a slipped-clutch concept to the hydraulic prime mover that is spec'd
to absorb the full force of a full braking situation, while maintaining viability.

Hope this helps you to visualize better ideas next.

Offline hammuraby

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Re: downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 09:41:17 AM »
Hi, in my exp, i had forget an IMPORTANT need for maximize the energy carryed to the regenerative system.
the clouth have to be open in the same time that the cut-off in incaming,
Leaving the veichle go free of resistence from motor ...... COASTING

How you can see, we are working on a refuse little truck (15-35ql) OLD STYLE, whit posterior traction, 5GEAR, but usefull for project a post market app..
I have some problem to translate all. But i promise the next, will be the logic used, whit sensor and actuator ...

« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 11:29:48 AM by hammuraby »

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Re: downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 09:41:17 AM »
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Offline hammuraby

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Re: downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2011, 05:01:41 PM »
The hydraulic regenerative need electric battery or other input, it facilitates the introduction of a base load electric system can be much smaller than That of Current hybrid electric vehicles. Electric batteries are excellent for storing large amounts of energy, but less fit for handling the large power peaks That Occur When Accelerating orbraking. Batteries need to be bigger than Necessary, just to handle Such power peaks. Also the high power loads reduces the lifetime . Hydraulic accumulators are a lowcost and effective solution . They Can Easily store large power peaks, and at a very high efficiency at very low costs. When a hydraulic accumulator takes care of the intermitting Power Demands of a vehicle, this means-Also-That the power input can downsize a lot . This Means a small 5 to 11 kW input can power a veichle as a usual 100kW motor,  and turning whit more regolarity.

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 09:56:04 PM »
While regeneration of energy seems needed in transport, I think the issue lies a level higher. Making this a patch-on technology rather than a prime one.

Most wasted in transport is in fact heat. Heat created from rolling resistance, air drag, engine overhead and evven noise. I could be wrong.
In transport system, braking should not be necessary. If you know where you're going, you should follow a low route there, ending in an uphill cancelling out all accumulated kinetic energy (at cruis speed). NOT following the low route from A to B makes transport inefficient by a factor of infinite.
A maglev railtrack inside a vacume tunnel system, will transport a carriage from say, Davos, CH (1560m) to any place at similar altitude (example route for minimal digging and breaking) at a cruise speed of 629kph. Expended energy: none. Build once, use forever.
It's like a house with a huge heater, that's actually decently efficient. It will always be beaten for heating energy input by a house that's insulated better. Insulation tech exists, just everyone is too scootchy for it, and loving big clear windows. Google aerogels insulation.

The best energy collector in my mind was always a giro. What you need is it to run in a friction-free environment, be giro-neutral if possible, and have friction-free power transfer and gearing. Vacume chamber, 3-axes gyros, magnetical no-touch bearing assembly, and magnet wheels for gears. This all exists. Even fake magnet motors use magnet wheels that interlink, where they could just have used a chain to prove their point.
I believe that, well engineered, a gyro-neutral gyro can be created that has no run down, max rpm only limited by structural intregrity of the weights themselves as they spin (CF ripping them apart), and the power transfer can be all with either coils or magnetic interacting cog wheels. Magnets for teeth. Magnets pose a traction limitation, but high revs might overcome that actually.
There's even a theory (not mine, forgot the source) that a design as I just described would offer anti-grivity properties. From the 3 cancelling gyros all taking up the same space. I once same a design of 3 rings of similar sizes, inside another, exis X, Y and Z respectively, different materials making for equal mass between them. I'd just vary thinkness and width, but OK.
Rodin coil technology could play a huge role in making such kenetic collector happen. It can pin-point magnetic field when properly wound and energized.

Imagine a fist sized box, inside all the above tech. You'd have it on your bike. Available for gyro's : a couple hundred grams, spin radius 3 cms. But, rpms towards megahertz range. It could pack oh so much kinetic energy, sealed from outside because of being self-cancelling. Stick the box in a cavity of a matching windmill overnight, collect in the morning, stick on your bicycle and your commute will be wind-powered. And yes, your braking would be 99% effficiently be stored. Because the box is driven by a magnet cog on your bike's wheel.
If you live on a mountain and your commute is to the valley, if you don't waste too much downhill energy on air drag, you could easily pedal back uphill after work. What's without loading the box up while at work for 9 hours. Everything that has an output of a spinning shaft, could load it up.

This is hard to build. But not much harder than Finnsrud's PPM. It's today's technology the way I see it. I am only unsure and sceptical about the anti-gravity aspect.

Sorry if this was off-topic for you. At least it's open source now if elsewhere forgotten.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 09:56:04 PM »
Sponsored links:

Offline hammuraby

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Re: downsizing 80% w/else the eng source: for automotive
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 06:09:44 PM »
May be you are right, sure your item is all intresting, but...
what is the reason for waste an 80% of energy in a urban circuit?
my be some FE Device can not will be miniaturized for give energy as a gasoline in a carbody as today..
then if the size can be a 80% less, this means an opportunity for reach befoure a car marcket....the richest in a energy conversion. And for sure the first that need an step to future improvement.

Then if you stay in theme not ot, you cas seee something very very intresting, usefull for your old fournace (heat producing) car.....;)