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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: sergdo on December 05, 2011, 03:32:59 PM
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read tekst infa
https://sites.google.com/site/dobrojanskij/soobseniebezzagolovka-2 (https://sites.google.com/site/dobrojanskij/soobseniebezzagolovka-2)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FCNnk-yAzq8/ToAEwp4wF5I/AAAAAAAAAUE/KdSa6dTq8G8/s640/sxemakachalki.jpg (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FCNnk-yAzq8/ToAEwp4wF5I/AAAAAAAAAUE/KdSa6dTq8G8/s640/sxemakachalki.jpg)
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xA3gEpVVs_s/TsNm9Gpv4gI/AAAAAAAAAY0/OumezWQwyTY/s640/DSC01834.JPG (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xA3gEpVVs_s/TsNm9Gpv4gI/AAAAAAAAAY0/OumezWQwyTY/s640/DSC01834.JPG)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-V6TgA9qrv1o/TsikCEEiq1I/AAAAAAAAAaU/i5rBfC2JOZ4/s720/bifmagus.jpg (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-V6TgA9qrv1o/TsikCEEiq1I/AAAAAAAAAaU/i5rBfC2JOZ4/s720/bifmagus.jpg)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z5YSx67l12M/TfII3IlLX5I/AAAAAAAAAMk/tFrcBEaytWw/s720/iptpn.jpg (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z5YSx67l12M/TfII3IlLX5I/AAAAAAAAAMk/tFrcBEaytWw/s720/iptpn.jpg)
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Ðлектролиз начинаетÑÑ
при 1,7 вольта
и Ñилы тока 1,6 Ð
что равно 2,72 ватт
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXWtyqttPgk
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Thanks Sergei. I'm going to have to try this.
With a double resonance coils from your secondary, you could drive a HH0 cell just like Daniel Dingle. Adjust the spark gap to tune the frequency going into the cell.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/46241193/Danie-gel
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Hi Sergdo
Thank's very much for your input. :)
I tried a replication and it seems to work very fine
bravo and i will follow your progress
good luck and Spassiba
Laurent
http://youtu.be/ZGSz_a3tTrk
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Woopy, congratulations on your replication.
@ Sergei, I was looking at your schematic - I don't read Russian, but it seems that the lower 2 coils on the toroid are counter clockwise in the diagram, and the 2 top coils are clockwise. Is the direction of windings important?
Bob
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Thanks for bumping this thread Laurent and your replication vid. Sergei's latest vid with a is also very interesting.
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It's really a joule thief :) Not having the coils interleaved doesn't really matter. The two pickup coils end up having a priority I noticed; partially because it's a unipolar oscillator I think, if they're not connected, one will get power before the other, and probably (only hypothetical...) One would get a larger spike in voltage and overall will be a more gradual decay on the induced voltage, than if they were interleaved biflilar. not trying to rain on the parade :)
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It's really a joule thief :) Not having the coils interleaved doesn't really matter. The two pickup coils end up having a priority I noticed; partially because it's a unipolar oscillator I think, if they're not connected, one will get power before the other, and probably (only hypothetical...) One would get a larger spike in voltage and overall will be a more gradual decay on the induced voltage, than if they were interleaved biflilar. not trying to rain on the parade :)
Haven't seen anyone melt steel yet with a joule thief :)
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here's my effort http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbUwst77Jgw
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here's my effort http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbUwst77Jgw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbUwst77Jgw)
Hi Jim
super, it seems to work with not so much turns and one single transistor at 9 volts :o
did you count the turns of the secondary on your toroid ? and what is your variable resistor value ?
well done and now lets try to melt steel yeepeee 8)
Laurent
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Hi Sergdo
Thank's very much for your input. :)
I tried a replication and it seems to work very fine
bravo and i will follow your progress
good luck and Spassiba
Laurent
http://youtu.be/ZGSz_a3tTrk (http://youtu.be/ZGSz_a3tTrk)
Hi Laurent,
Thanks for showing the nice replication. Please tell if the scope shot you show is taken when the output is unloaded or loaded with the LED lamp? I gues it shows an unloaded output, if yes please check it when loaded, it is important how high the output voltage is. Your scope shot in the video shows a 350V peak to peak voltage amplitude if I saw it correctly?
I am thinking perhaps a mobile phone charger which can run from 50/60Hz AC input of 90V to 240V could be used here for a possible looping? Because most present day and small phone chargers have a switch mode power supply and their output is a stabilized DC, they have a normal half wave or full wave diode rectifier at their mains input so probably the 2.7 kHz output from your setup would not be much problem, however the 350Vpp would be an overvoltage for them, so you could reduce the 2 x 500 turns to say 2 x 300 turns or make a tap on one of the output coils. Just thinking lol.
Here is a phone charger possible inside circuit: http://www.onsemi.cn/pub_link/Collateral/DN06009-D.PDF (http://www.onsemi.cn/pub_link/Collateral/DN06009-D.PDF) of course no guarantee you happen to have such but if you have a small plug-in type and its weight is also small then no chance it includes a normal mains transformer which does not likely work at 2-3kHz instead of the 50/60 Hz mains.
Thanks Gyula
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Great work guys,
very interesting, full brightness for such little power, if you have a small solar cell try feeding the light back into the circuit and see how close you get to self-sustaining, the first time this was tried on this forum was a few years ago on the Joule thief thread, But they never seem to be able to get their LEDs to full brightness.
Good luck
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here's my effort http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbUwst77Jgw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbUwst77Jgw)
Hi Jim,
Very good and please try to estimate output-input power relation when you have some time.
Gyula
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Hi Laurent,
Thanks for showing the nice replication. Please tell if the scope shot you show is taken when the output is unloaded or loaded with the LED lamp? I gues it shows an unloaded output, if yes please check it when loaded, it is important how high the output voltage is. Your scope shot in the video shows a 350V peak to peak voltage amplitude if I saw it correctly?
I am thinking perhaps a mobile phone charger which can run from 50/60Hz AC input of 90V to 240V could be used here for a possible looping? Because most present day and small phone chargers have a switch mode power supply and their output is a stabilized DC, they have a normal half wave or full wave diode rectifier at their mains input so probably the 2.7 kHz output from your setup would not be much problem, however the 350Vpp would be an overvoltage for them, so you could reduce the 2 x 500 turns to say 2 x 300 turns or make a tap on one of the output coils. Just thinking lol.
Here is a phone charger possible inside circuit: http://www.onsemi.cn/pub_link/Collateral/DN06009-D.PDF (http://www.onsemi.cn/pub_link/Collateral/DN06009-D.PDF) of course no guarantee you happen to have such but if you have a small plug-in type and its weight is also small then no chance it includes a normal mains transformer which does not likely work at 2-3kHz instead of the 50/60 Hz mains.
Thanks Gyula
Hi Gyula
yes the trace you see on my first video is the trace on load at about 3.36 volt input, and is positive about 200 volt and negative 150 volt so peak to peak 350 volt. I don't know why there is not the same up and down, Perhaps because one coil is 6.2 ohms and the other is 7 ohms. I don't know the inductance because i fried my LCR metter with my other high voltage experiment :-\
Thanks for the idea of looping, it remind me something named Romero. ::)
But Sergdo is right we can melt steel withthis device at about 10 watts :o
good luck at all ;D
Laurent
http://youtu.be/nBD3_7VbrIQ
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Hi Laurent,
I really did not mean to have you some nasty visitors of course I only wish to learn more precisely about the output-input power relation... 8) :D
Thanks, Gyula
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Question for you all.
I do not have a ferrite toroid core that large. I do however have a transformer core that is a roll of metal of I assume lamination core type. Would this work as well as the ferrite for this project?
If anyone has used this for this purpose I appreciate the feedback. My guess is that it would work.
Thank you for fielding this.
Very Best Regards,
jehdds aka diveflyfish
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Hi diveflyfish,
If your core has a normal 4% Si content like many normal mains transformers or motors do than it is not sure it can operate efficiently like a ferrite would at the some kHz frequency range this circuit works. IF you have a Hypersil type core then it can go up some hundred Hz with good efficiency, maybe up to some kHz with reduced efficiency. IF your core was meant originally to serve for coupling audio power in audio amplifiers then you have a good core material for the kHz range.
Gyula
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Hi diveflyfish,
If your core has a normal 4% Si content like many normal mains transformers or motors do than it is not sure it can operate efficiently like a ferrite would at the some kHz frequency range this circuit works. IF you have a Hypersil type core then it can go up some hundred Hz with good efficiency, maybe up to some kHz with reduced efficiency. IF your core was meant originally to serve for coupling audio power in audio amplifiers then you have a good core material for the kHz range.
Gyula
Could it be wound with many more turns to lower the freq of operation?
Mags
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Hi Mags,
Yes I believe so, though I have not pondered on what constitutes the oscillation frequency in this specific circuit, in a normal blocking oscillator the base-emitter capacitance and the series R do influences it. The L value of the coil in the collector does not have a crucial effect on the frequency, the base-emitter capacitance has the biggest effect I had found with blocking oscillators years ago. And this circuit does seem to resemble a blocking oscillator. Perhaps the Joule thief builder guys have some opinion too.
Gyula
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Hey Gyula
So the freq of operation is in the transistor circuit?
The coil that is connected to the base of the transistor, does it turn off the transistor due to influence of the driver coil or do the secondaries? Would be interesting to know. ;]
If the driver coil affects the base coil then the freq happening is not necessarily the freq that the secondaries work best at. So maybe just use one input coil and drive it from an outside source to see if input/output could be better.
Mags
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Hi Mags,
To be more precise from my part, and to correct a bit my rusty memories, the coil's L inductance in directly series with the collector electrode which is basically 'responsible' for the frequency, together with its transformed L towards the base electrode where the R bias resistor is, they constitute the L/R time constant. And the core saturating characteristics is also involved, please study this page http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/36e.htm at mainly the bottom part, though the one transistor oscillator circuit is not exactly the same like the one shown here, still the operation must be very similar. And there you can read the last sentence: "From T1 to T2 (figure 3-34), transistor Q1 is held at cutoff by C1 discharging through R1 (figure 3-33). The transistor is now said to be "blocked." As C1 gradually loses its charge, the voltage on the base of Q1 returns to a forward-bias condition. At T2, the voltage on the base has become sufficiently positive to forward bias Q1, and the cycle is repeated."
So while the ON time of the oscillator mainly depends on L/R and the core, the OFF time is controlled by C1 which is not present in a component form in the present 'welding' oscillator circuit like in my link, however this is where the base-emitter capacitance comes into the picture. I recall when I tinkered with such blocking oscillators, I placed a 22pF capacitor in parallel with the base-emitter and this changed the frequency from the 20-30kHz range down to the 10-20kHz range (a huge change in this low frequency oscillator circuits) because I dramatically changed (increased) the few pF base-emitter capacitance.
Now your questions may be answered, the secondary coils do not normally change too much the frequency (unless the load forces the core into saturation, this would influence L/R, but then this is not a normal operation), and when you were to control the base from an outside source, the circuit switching properties would be dictated mainly by the rise and fall times of the input pulse and its duty cycle. Probably the latter choice sounds better bringing in more flexibility but this should be tested of course.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi Jim,
Very good and please try to estimate output-input power relation when you have some time.
Gyula
Will do some scope shots tonight and put an ampmeter on. The dmm was unable to measure output. Same issues as when on slayer exciters. High freq?
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The oscillation happens because of the sensing coil to the base; the frequency is most dependant on number of windings form power to collector and power to base; a shorter wire to base gives shorter pulses, a shorter wire to collector gives faster pulses (when dealing with few windings). the transistor will affect the switch time of the pulse; which determines how much of a spike you can generate to pick up on the pickup coils. there's a thread 'joule thief 101' which does good covering this sort of circuit. you can have just a few windings, the minimal windings is one through the toroid to the base and one through the toroid to the collector, this is also the highest frequency. The size of resistor between the base and it's coil also determines the slope of the spike. More than 0Ohm is good, the 101 thread says it should be 4.7K; I find with my smaller transistors that 50-100ohms works best, otherwise the slopes become more gradual and you can't get the same peek out... but I think for higher current transistors that probably a higher resistance will be better...
metglas site had some DC reactor ideas; their toroids, when, saturated start working like a diode, I think part of this is what happens in the joule thief idea; once the toroid saturates with a field, it stops conducting. I dunno there's a different explaination in the first few messages of that joule thief 101 thread...
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Will do some scope shots tonight and put an ampmeter on. The dmm was unable to measure output. Same issues as when on slayer exciters. High freq?
Well, it is not high frequency but for a DMM designed and calibrated for 50/60 Hz AC it is high. Woopy had 2.7kHz frequency and Sergdo had around 10kHz oscillator frequency.
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This circuit reminds me of
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aPCjW6I-9-c/TnMk95PlPpI/AAAAAAAAAS8/F5_qKZpbYho/s720/000f2eqf.jpg
Barret - Tesla's nonlinear oscillator-shuttle circuit
http://www.scribd.com/doc/248237/Barret-Teslas-nonlinear-oscillatorshuttle-circuit-OSC-theory
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THANKS .....
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Hi Gyula
i tried to hook a NOKIA handphone charger without standard transformer but i could get about nothing. The voltmeter indicated 6.07 volt, than i conected a 10 000 uf 100 volt cap and the charging was a bad dizzling noise and i had to constantly regulate the voltage input to increase the voltage in the cap, Than when the cap was at 6.07 volts the dizzling noise stop and the scope shows a normal fonction ( as per no cap charging)
than i conected a lamp (rated 4 volt DC ) accross the cap and i got a short and brillant ligthing.
So i think that this phone charger (nokia ) is not able to do what i am looking for 8) 8) 8) or any idea ?
but just for fun
http://youtu.be/FqGjkqaTC7Y
good uck at all
Laurent
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@Woopy
I used an old TV yoke cut in half for my toroid and noticed my led lamp gets brighter when I apply more pressure on my 2 halves, maybe if its in one piece we will get better results or more efficient results...
I was also able to melt 23awg wire with 9 volts input, output voltage unloaded was off the scale, tried with a 10X probe but couldn't fit the entire peak to peak wave form. Playing with the vertical position on the scope I could only estimate it was about 3 times the height of my scope screen which would be something over 3000volts !! don't wanna fry my scope either.
I will wind a new (not broken) toroid and do more tests.
BTW excellent videos Woopy.
Cheers Michel
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Hi Hitman
bravo
i wondered if a TV yoke would work and you say it is possible.
Yes i think also that a one piece torroid should be better, but what a hell to wind :-X
If you look at Sergdo video , his toroid do not dizzle at all, the diizzle appears only at the welding arc.
My broken torroid dizzle a lot, and i also noticed that when i press the 2 parts the dizzling decrease but not desappears.
Can you say more on the dimension of your yoke and turns of primary and secondary, because i think at this stage of developpement we have to test a lot of different ferrite toroid and winding, to improve our knowledge.
By the way i wonder if a NANOPERM toroid would be better ???
Many thank's :)
Laurent
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@Woopy
I used an old TV yoke cut in half for my toroid and noticed my led lamp gets brighter when I apply more pressure on my 2 halves, maybe if its in one piece we will get better results or more efficient results...
I was also able to melt 23awg wire with 9 volts input, output voltage unloaded was off the scale, tried with a 10X probe but couldn't fit the entire peak to peak wave form. Playing with the vertical position on the scope I could only estimate it was about 3 times the height of my scope screen which would be something over 3000volts !! don't wanna fry my scope either.
I will wind a new (not broken) toroid and do more tests.
BTW excellent videos Woopy.
Cheers Michel
Hey Michel I don't suppose you have a vid? I'm winding my yoke now. Did you use the clips that came with yoke to join it back together? Great work.
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Would be much better to have a solid toroid with no break.
To make winding faster and easier make a simple jig, wind all of the wire to be used onto something thin, like a pencil, then you can hand wind the toroid by just passing the pencil through over and over.
Melting steel with ten watts, crazy !
Perhaps there's something similar to inductive heating going on here ?
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Hi Laurent,
I hope your Nokia charger remained operational from the normal mains voltage?
I guess you meant the 6.07V at the output of the charger when you connected its AC input to your coil's AC output? And I would not recommend hooking a 10 000uF cap to the output of the Nokia charger because it is a huge load for it and may change the inside working of the built-in switch mode circuit.
What would be interesting to know is how low the AC voltage goes down at your AC coil output the moment you connect the Nokia charger to it, first without any load across the charger DC output. I think the dizzling noise was heard under the time the 10 000uF cap was being charged up to 6V, agree with this?
So when you measured the 6.07V at the charger output, what was the AC input of the Sergdo circuit to the charger, can you check it with your scope? You wrote elsewhere you rewound the output coils with less than 500 turns, what is the output peak to peak voltage now?
And it would be also good you load the DC output of the charger by a normal resistor when it is hooked to your Sergdo circuit, the resistor value would be in the range from 33 to 82 to 120 Ohm and see if the 6V DC output is changing or remains stable as you increase the load towards the lower values. Maybe you can check its behaviour when plugged into the normal mains and you load the 6V DC output?
Thanks, Gyula
Hi Gyula
i tried to hook a NOKIA handphone charger without standard transformer but i could get about nothing. The voltmeter indicated 6.07 volt, than i conected a 10 000 uf 100 volt cap and the charging was a bad dizzling noise and i had to constantly regulate the voltage input to increase the voltage in the cap, Than when the cap was at 6.07 volts the dizzling noise stop and the scope shows a normal fonction ( as per no cap charging)
than i conected a lamp (rated 4 volt DC ) accross the cap and i got a short and brillant ligthing.
So i think that this phone charger (nokia ) is not able to do what i am looking for 8) 8) 8) or any idea ?
but just for fun
http://youtu.be/FqGjkqaTC7Y (http://youtu.be/FqGjkqaTC7Y)
good uck at all
Laurent
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Hi Hitman
bravo
i wondered if a TV yoke would work and you say it is possible.
Yes i think also that a one piece torroid should be better, but what a hell to wind :-X
If you look at Sergdo video , his toroid do not dizzle at all, the diizzle appears only at the welding arc.
My broken torroid dizzle a lot, and i also noticed that when i press the 2 parts the dizzling decrease but not desappears.
Can you say more on the dimension of your yoke and turns of primary and secondary, because i think at this stage of developpement we have to test a lot of different ferrite toroid and winding, to improve our knowledge.
By the way i wonder if a NANOPERM toroid would be better ???
Many thank's :)
Laurent
The yoke is about 2 in high by 3.5 in diameter, looks like the one Arunas used, it came out of a very old TV.
primary was 30 turns each of 26awg magnet wire and sec was 131 turns each of 23awg magnet wire.
transistor was a 2N3055
I wound another smaller and newer yoke today using the same guages of wire but increased secondary to 200 turns each, I still was able to light my 120V 2watt bulb but it was not strong enough to melt steel. Also I noticed I couldn't reach the lower frequency's like I did with the first yoke.
will try to find my camera and make a quick vid :)
Cheers Michel
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Update !
I am now lighting two 120volt 2Watt led bulbs connected in series at just under 2 watts.
I used a solar cell to measure how much voltage the led bulb would produce on the cell when connected to the mains power (.41volts), I then adjusted frequency of the (I don't know what to call it) thingamabob to match the .41 measurement and then took voltage and amp readings with 1 bulb then 2 in series.
1 bulb connected to mains: 114volts @ .016amps = 1.82watts, bulb intensity = .41volts
1 bulb connected to toroid: 12.65volts @ .187amps = 2.36watts bulb intensity = .41volts
2 series bulbs connected to toroid: 12.52volts @ .162amps = 2.02watts bulb intensity = (much higher)
Now I'm not sure but wouldn't the 2 lights in series suppose to give you a total of 4 watts ?
Here are some pics and a video as requested.
http://youtu.be/MNFgWYUzYOg
Cheers Michel (aka Hitman :)
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@Woopy
I used an old TV yoke cut in half for my toroid and noticed my led lamp gets brighter when I apply more pressure on my 2 halves, maybe if its in one piece we will get better results or more efficient results...
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Hi Michel,
Thanks for showing your replication, very good. You surely know that applying more pressure on the two halfs of the toroid decreases the airgap between the facing ferrit surfaces, hence the inductance of all the coils surely increases and more energy can circulate inside the core versus the higher airgap case. Yes a fully closed big core would be better but there are two reasons:
very hard to wind the some hundred turns and there is some danger for the core to get close to saturation.
I used a solar cell to measure how much voltage the led bulb would produce on the cell when connected to the mains power (.41volts), I then adjusted frequency of the (I don't know what to call it) thingamabob to match the .41 measurement and then took voltage and amp readings with 1 bulb then 2 in series.
Hopefully you used a shading material (black cloth or whatever) to close out ambient light when you took the calibration and the solar cell received light from the LED lamp only? And this shading material was used in the same way when your LED was run from the Sergdo circuit? Even so, this comparison (may it sound good) includes the lack of the light spectra difference (if any) between the some kHz and the 60Hz mains frequency drive. IT would be good to know the LED inner circuit, if it includes full wave diode bridge at its mains input and a puffer capacitor then the difference may be less.
However I would like to learn how you adjusted the frequency of the 'thingamabob' :) to arrive at the .41V?
1 bulb connected to mains: 114volts @ .016amps = 1.82watts, bulb intensity = .41volts
1 bulb connected to toroid: 12.65volts @ .187amps = 2.36watts bulb intensity = .41volts
2 series bulbs connected to toroid: 12.52volts @ .162amps = 2.02watts bulb intensity = (much higher)
Now I'm not sure but wouldn't the 2 lights in series suppose to give you a total of 4 watts ?
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Theoretically I would agree, the two LEDs in series would consume 2 x 2W but you surely noticed that the circuit consumed less input power when the load was 2 LEDs in series, meaning the LEDs are nonlinear devices and very sensitive voltagewise. Here again it would be good to know the inner circuit of such LEDs do they include any voltage stabilizing circuits. Perhaps first a voltage-current curve or tabelle could be made from the mains voltage by a Variac transformator to explore their behavior.
IT may be also useful to connect the two LEDs in parallel, not in series to see the same .41V or around that from both and then observe the circuit input power.
Thanks, Gyula
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Hopefully you used a shading material (black cloth or whatever) to close out ambient light when you took the calibration and the solar cell received light from the LED lamp only? And this shading material was used in the same way when your LED was run from the Sergdo circuit? Even so, this comparison (may it sound good) includes the lack of the light spectra difference (if any) between the some kHz and the 60Hz mains frequency drive. IT would be good to know the LED inner circuit, if it includes full wave diode bridge at its mains input and a puffer capacitor then the difference may be less.
However I would like to learn how you adjusted the frequency of the 'thingamabob' :) to arrive at the .41V?
If you look at my 1st pic, you can see the solar cell glued to a round piece of cardboard which was taped to the steel housing of the lamp so there was no ambient light getting in and same was done for both mains pwr and serdgo circuit.
When you adjust the variable resistor the intensity of the bulb varies and this is how I able to adjust the bulb intensity (.41volts on the cell) to equal the mains power. This was not done on the 2 bulbs in series but I could clearly see the intensity of the lights were much higher then on mains.
Theoretically I would agree, the two LEDs in series would consume 2 x 2W but you surely noticed that the circuit consumed less input power when the load was 2 LEDs in series, meaning the LEDs are nonlinear devices and very sensitive voltagewise. Here again it would be good to know the inner circuit of such LEDs do they include any voltage stabilizing circuits. Perhaps first a voltage-current curve or tabelle could be made from the mains voltage by a Variac transformator to explore their behavior.
IT may be also useful to connect the two LEDs in parallel, not in series to see the same .41V or around that from both and then observe the circuit input power.
Thanks, Gyula
Sorry I don't have a variac to try what you suggest but maybe someone who does could test it out, also I will try connecting them in parallel then I will dismantle 1 of my bulbs and take a look at the circuitry, I just hate breaking apart a 10$ light bulb :(
Thanks for the suggestions
Cheers Michel
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Hi Hitman
go on man good work
i also tried to wind a TV yoke and i get good results at low voltage but much less at higher power. (could get very low melting, nothing in comparison with the torroid ferrite core ) ???
I will try to wind the Joulethief part on one halfe of the yoke and the 2 secondaries on the other half of the yoke to see if there is a difference.
Hi Gyula
thank's for all very interesting input as usual
I include a pix and ask you your idea on the fact that if use 2 same electrodes on the output of the secondaries, and make some distance between them , in order to install a plasma arc (about 1 cm ) why is the left end of the plasma arc seemly "cold " and why is the right end seamly "hot" and melting the steel. Is it possipble that the 2 secondaries are dealing with different nature of energy?? :o
thank's
Laurent
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Hi Laurent,
I assume you use the two HV diodes at the output of the secondaries?
EDIT: If you use the HV diodes, the "hot" or the "cold" wire end is connected to the common points of the diodes?
Gyula
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Hi Gyula
No.. sorry
It is a direct conection from the 2 secondaries output leads to both electrodes . (as per the Sergdo windings ) with no diode at all.
And if i invert the 2 wires of the secondary leads , i get the "hot" point end on the left and the "cold " point end on the right
fascinating to me at this point!!
thank's
Laurent
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Hi Laurent,
Before I forget: you may wish to WEAR PROTECTIVE GLASSES to watch the arc, maybe an UV protected sunglasses as a minimum precaution to your eyesight, think about this!
IS it possible that the moment you touch the two wires, a hot spot developes on one of the wire-ends and then as you pull them gently apart, the hot spot stays on its place (but do not ask me now why it would stay, :o )
Although this paper deals with DC arc, maybe a good reading on this topic:
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1963AuJPh..16..228E&defaultprint=YES&filetype=.pdf (http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1963AuJPh..16..228E&defaultprint=YES&filetype=.pdf)
Have you known that in general an electric arc has a negative resistance characteristic in its voltage/current curve? IT means that when current increases in the arc, the voltage reduces between the electrodes or vice versa, within certain voltage values, this is shown in the above paper but here is an interesting circuit from a book, go to this link http://books.google.com/ (http://books.google.com/) and enter this title: [ The science of radio: with MATLAB and Electronics Workbench demonstrations ] and click on the book address (the first one in the appearing list, then in the book roll down to page 80 and 81. Very interesting, a series LC is shown across the electrodes, it remembers me to replace the L in it with a transformer primary coil... So the energy coming from your secondaries maintains the arc, the arc has a negative part in its voltage - current curve and it means it could keep an LC circuit in oscillation... we have to think about this.
EDIT: Try to use the HV diodes for testing how the hot or cold ends may change and for the book example where a DC arc is involved, not AC arc.
rgds, Gyula
PS: Please when you have some time tomorrow, try answering my questions in my Reply#31 above, I am curious :)
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double post
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Hi Laurent,
I noticed Caroll's post on the other forum and indeed as she wrote, with DC arc the electrons 'travel' towards the positive wire end, causing more and more 'hot particles' there while they leave the negative wire end, quasy 'cooling' it by moving away from it.
Last night I though of this and this is why I asked about the diodes and you wrote you did not use any so you must have had AC pulse, with alternating polarity, so this could not explain the temperature difference.
This morning it occured to me however that you had an asymmetry in the output AC pulse when you showed the 350V waveform across the LED lamps with the 500 turns secondary coils, (200V peak positive above the zero crossing and 150V negative peak below zero crossing) so there was a quasy 50V DC shift, a DC polarity 'advantage' at one of the electrodes. OF course I do not know if your new output coils with the 200 turn (or whatever) windings have a similar amplitude asymmetry around the zero crossing but if you simply made the two output coils onto the different half cores again, chances are there is now again asymmetry between the positive and negative amplitudes.
rgds, Gyula
PS You mentioned you use steel wire where one of the ends is hotter in temperature, I wonder if your steel wire is ferromagnetic? i.e. a permanent magnet attracts it?
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More testing,
lamps = 120V @ 2Watts each.
1 lamp on mains 101.5VAC @ 16ma input = 1.62Watts
2 lamps in series 6.65VDC @ 199ma input = 1.32Watts
2 lamps in parallel 7.25VDC @ 158ma input = 1.08Watts
Here's a scope shot with no load
Cheers Michel
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Hi Michel,
I am curious... :)
Where is the zero line on your scope shot above? And does the amplitude of the pos and neg part of the output pulse changes when you connect the LED lamps?
IF you dismantled already your setup, then it is ok of course.
Thanks, Gyula
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Hi all
Hi Michel and Gyula
and of course SERGDO if you wish to try to come in the discussion it would be great even in russian thank's !
just my next experiment, really interesting
http://youtu.be/LA3wDUjYhqE
and some scope shot of the importance of the diode's organisation for a good melting process
I hope you can see it correctly, or do not hesitate to ask for better pix
to resume , on the left part , the 2 serial diodes are working and on the right part , i supressed the "shorting diode ". so only 1 diode bank is working.
so it seems that i get a really better result with the 2 opposing diode banks.
So i wonder if we are not dealing with a shorting coil experiment here ??? Gyula what do you think ;)
Good luck at all
Laurent
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Hi Michel,
I am curious... :)
Where is the zero line on your scope shot above? And does the amplitude of the pos and neg part of the output pulse changes when you connect the LED lamps?
IF you dismantled already your setup, then it is ok of course.
Thanks, Gyula
Hi Gyula,
The zero line would be at the top in the center of where the oscillations starts, looks huge like negative spikes (my setup did not permit readings any higher then this and power input was only .25 of max.)
I've dismantled but kept the yoke as is in-case I can't get the same results with another. The wave form changes from what u see in the scope shot to a normal square wave when the load is applied.
@woopy
Tap water actually conducts pretty well because of all the crap thats put in it, you should try it with distilled water.
Cheers Michel
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Hi Michel
Aggree with you that tap water is surely totally corrupted and polluted with all we can think so it will get some conductiv properties without any doubt
.
But if i use the same water as a conductor between a battery and a motor for instance, i will get no chance to power it or ???
And of course i tried just now a distilled water test and i got a not so strong sparkling melting but a almost incandescent light at the end of the electrode. (but perhaps my distilled water is not perfectly distilled )
Michel what puzzle me here is not the fact that the water is distilled or not,.
The fact is that i do not see a graet difference between the melting i get , when i put the electrode in NEAR contact with the other steel electrode and the same electrode in the tap water
wich in other words is , that a "plunging electrode" in my "robinet " tap water should get a so conductiv efficiency as that of a steel tubing
youup trying to be clear but not sure
please try it yourself
Laurent
So a very poor conductiv water can act as a very good steel conductor in this expperiment do you see what i mean ??
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Hi Laurent
I think that trying to power a motor with a battery using water as your conductors is like edison did trying to send DC across 2 miles of copper wire, but if you use AC it will work no problem. You said you tried with contaminated distilled water and the melting was less ? hummmmm.
Watching your video I actually thought you had something with the electrolysis "YAY" but no, I've been working along time with HHO and still have unsatisfactory results.
I'll try it this evening after the hockey game :)
Cheers Michel
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Hi Laurent,
Thanks for the spectacular video, very good. Yes, normal drinking water conducts electricity (this is why so many lethal accident happens when using hairdryer in a bath-tub and it falls in water...) and it is difficult to make water pure to decrease its conductivity (here is a link on this http://www.lenntech.com/applications/ultrapure/conductivity/water-conductivity.htm and conductivity is measured in Siemens, the reciprocal value of Ohm.) In the link the drinking water is shown as having a 20 to 200 Ohm resistance, this is already too high to pass your DC motor current from the battery you mentioned (voltage drop was too high across the water resistance) but in case of wire melting your peak voltages are in the several hundred volts range (and this HV pulse has some kHz frequency).
IT is sure that the moment you touch the water with the wire you make an electrolysis and oxigen and hidrogen are created which also burns the moment they are created. This burning surely helps the melting of the wire as it also melts in the open air. So this is what could explain the melting in water, oxigen is present in both cases, (with hidrogen also in the water case).
Re on your question with the diodes: I wrote on the other forum I found it strange from Sergdo why he used the two diodes as he showed it in his video because when the two wire piece were open circuit (no melting) then no current could flow in the secondary coils or in the diodes and when he shorted out one of the diodes by connecting the two wires to get melting then he had a normal single diode rectifier (half wave rectification). This is why I wrote earlier to test melting by using a full wave diode bridge across the secondary coils (together with a 3-4kV rated some hundred nF puffer capacitor).
First I tried to explain for myself Sergdo's unusual two diode output circuit as follows: the diode (which is in parallel with the two wire pieces to be closed for melting) helps blocking the opposing voltage spike which is created in the secondary coils the moment the contact between the wires is interrupted or current value suddenly changes in the secondary while the wire tips are arcing BUT then there is the other diode with just its reverse polarity for these event to prevent current so indeed no need for the diode in parallel with the steel wires.
HOWEVER, your scope shots seems to favor the use of two diodes and the explanation I think is in the HV diode itself: it must have at least some hundred picoFarad self-capacitance in the reverse direction and it works as a puffer capacitor to store some of the output energy and this output is what you can see voltage-wise in the upper left hand side scope shot CH2 when you have open circuit with two diodes. AND in the upper right hand side shot when this reverse capacitance is missing (because the diode is missing) and if you connected your 10:1 scope probe it has about 15pF self capacitance only, hence the output pulse is much smaller voltage-wise when there is open circuit. TO TEST this, you could use a HV capacitor in place of the diode which is in parallel with the two steel wires. (you can make such HV cap with some ten to hundred pF value by taking a PVC insulated piece of wire, say 20cm long and you make a 'coil' onto this PVC insulation from enamelled copper wire, the capacitor is created between any one end of the inner wire of the PVC and any one end of the outer 'coil' wire, the number of turns controls the pF value.)
You mentioned coil shorting: yes I think this happens even if it is created by arc and probably the fluctuating 'plasma' and this is why a full wave bridge with a HV puffer cap could be used because the didode bridge can 'steer' any spike created across the secondaries into the capacitor.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi Gyula
thank's very much for all your info
Today i have tried a lot of different config and included some HV cap and FWB rectifier as per your proposals, which give me some other ideas
That's how i think a forum must go, a share of different ideas and practical usefull or theorical relevant propsals.
Not able tonight to make a summary
have to go on the experiments to clear up my mind :P
but anyway , this Sergdo toroid is really puzzling
good night at all :)
laurent
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Sergei, Thank you for this very interesting thread.
Please anyone can you translate what is going on here:
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Hi all,
I try to make this circuit but I can read AC or DC voltage in the output of this. What transistor must I use? I used the BU 508A darlincton transistor Also I test it with 2N1711 with MOSFET IRF 634A. firts, I usd in the output coils very smaller wire from transformer 264 turns and the input coils 16 turns I have build with 1mm wire.In the second effort I used coil from utp , telephone wire, the two output coils is about 45 turns and the two input coils is about 15 turns.