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Author Topic: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage  (Read 41537 times)

Offline jehdds

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2012, 04:23:26 PM »
Question for you all.
I do not have a ferrite toroid core that large.  I do however have a transformer core that is a roll of metal of I assume lamination core type.  Would this work as well as the ferrite for this project?
If anyone has used this for this purpose I appreciate the feedback.  My guess is that it would work.
Thank you for fielding this.
Very Best Regards,
jehdds aka diveflyfish

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Offline gyulasun

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2012, 10:16:13 PM »
Hi diveflyfish,
 
 If your core has a normal 4% Si content like many normal mains transformers or motors do than it is not sure it can operate efficiently like a ferrite would at the some kHz frequency range this circuit works.  IF you have a Hypersil type core then it can go up some hundred Hz with good efficiency, maybe up to some kHz with reduced efficiency.  IF your core was meant originally to serve for coupling audio power in audio amplifiers then you have a good core material for the kHz range.
 
 Gyula
 

Offline Magluvin

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2012, 10:26:49 PM »
Hi diveflyfish,
 
 If your core has a normal 4% Si content like many normal mains transformers or motors do than it is not sure it can operate efficiently like a ferrite would at the some kHz frequency range this circuit works.  IF you have a Hypersil type core then it can go up some hundred Hz with good efficiency, maybe up to some kHz with reduced efficiency.  IF your core was meant originally to serve for coupling audio power in audio amplifiers then you have a good core material for the kHz range.
 
 Gyula

Could it be wound with many more turns to lower the freq of operation?

Mags

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2012, 10:26:49 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 10:35:58 PM »
Hi Mags,

Yes I believe so,  though I have not pondered on what constitutes the oscillation frequency in this specific circuit,  in a normal blocking oscillator the base-emitter capacitance and the series R do influences it. The L value of the coil in the collector does not have a crucial effect on the frequency, the base-emitter capacitance has the biggest effect I had found with blocking oscillators years ago.  And this circuit does seem to resemble a blocking oscillator.  Perhaps the Joule thief builder guys have some opinion too.

Gyula

Offline Magluvin

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 10:53:07 PM »
Hey Gyula

So the freq of operation is in the transistor circuit? 

The coil that is connected to the base of the transistor, does it turn off the transistor due to influence of the driver coil or do the secondaries?  Would be interesting to know. ;]

If the driver coil affects the base coil then the freq happening is not necessarily the freq that the secondaries work best at.  So maybe just use one input coil and drive it from an outside source to see if input/output could be better.

Mags

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 10:53:07 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2012, 12:20:08 AM »
Hi Mags,

To be more precise from my part, and to correct a bit my rusty memories, the coil's L inductance in directly series with the collector electrode which is basically 'responsible' for the frequency, together with its transformed L towards the base electrode where the R bias resistor is, they constitute the L/R time constant.   And the core saturating characteristics is also involved, please study this page http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/36e.htm  at mainly the bottom part, though the one transistor oscillator circuit is not exactly the same like the one shown here,  still the operation must be very similar. And there you can read the last sentence: "From T1 to T2 (figure 3-34), transistor Q1 is held at cutoff by C1 discharging through R1 (figure 3-33). The transistor is now said to be "blocked." As C1 gradually loses its charge, the voltage on the base of Q1 returns to a forward-bias condition. At T2, the voltage on the base has become sufficiently positive to forward bias Q1, and the cycle is repeated."

So while the ON time of the oscillator mainly depends on L/R and the core, the OFF time is controlled by C1 which is not present in a component form in the present 'welding' oscillator circuit like in my link, however  this is where the base-emitter capacitance comes into the picture.  I recall when I tinkered with such blocking oscillators, I placed a 22pF capacitor in parallel with the base-emitter  and this changed the frequency from the 20-30kHz range down to the 10-20kHz range (a huge change in this low frequency oscillator circuits)  because I dramatically changed (increased) the few pF base-emitter capacitance. 

Now your questions may be answered,  the secondary coils do not normally change too much the frequency (unless the load forces the core into saturation, this would influence L/R, but then this is not a normal operation),  and when you were to control the base from an outside source, the circuit switching properties would be dictated mainly by the rise and fall times of the input pulse and its duty cycle.  Probably the latter choice sounds better bringing in more flexibility but this should be tested of course.

rgds, Gyula

Offline Jimboot

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2012, 12:20:32 AM »
Hi Jim, 

Very good and please try to estimate output-input power relation when you have some time.

Gyula
Will do some scope shots tonight and put an ampmeter on. The dmm was unable to measure output. Same issues as when on slayer exciters. High freq?

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2012, 12:20:32 AM »
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Offline d3x0r

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2012, 12:20:42 AM »
The oscillation happens because of the sensing coil to the base; the frequency is most dependant on number of windings form power to collector and power to base; a shorter wire to base gives shorter pulses, a shorter wire to collector gives faster pulses (when dealing with few windings).  the transistor will affect the switch time of the pulse; which determines how much of a spike you can generate to pick up on the pickup coils.  there's a thread 'joule thief 101' which does good covering this sort of circuit.  you can have just a few windings, the minimal windings is one through the toroid to the base and one through the toroid to the collector, this is also the highest frequency.  The size of resistor between the base and it's coil also determines the slope of the spike.  More than 0Ohm is good, the 101 thread says it should be 4.7K; I find with my smaller transistors that 50-100ohms works best, otherwise the slopes become more gradual and you can't get the same peek out... but I think for higher current transistors that probably a higher resistance will be better...


metglas site had some DC reactor ideas; their toroids, when, saturated start working like a diode, I think part of this is what happens in the joule thief idea; once the toroid saturates with a field, it stops conducting.  I dunno there's a different explaination in the first few messages of that joule thief 101 thread...

Offline gyulasun

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 12:34:50 AM »
Will do some scope shots tonight and put an ampmeter on. The dmm was unable to measure output. Same issues as when on slayer exciters. High freq?

Well, it is not high frequency  but for a DMM designed and calibrated for 50/60 Hz AC it is high.  Woopy had 2.7kHz frequency and Sergdo had around 10kHz oscillator frequency.

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 12:34:50 AM »
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Offline enron-r-crooks

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Offline FreeEnergyInfo

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2012, 06:48:43 PM »
THANKS .....

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2012, 06:48:43 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2012, 11:50:08 PM »
Hi Gyula

i tried to hook a NOKIA  handphone charger without standard transformer but i could get about nothing. The voltmeter indicated 6.07 volt, than i conected a 10 000 uf 100 volt cap and the charging was a bad dizzling noise and i had to constantly regulate the voltage input to increase the voltage in the cap, Than when the cap was at 6.07 volts the dizzling noise stop and the scope shows a normal fonction ( as per no cap charging)

than i conected a lamp (rated 4 volt DC ) accross the cap and i got a short and brillant ligthing.

So i think that this phone charger (nokia ) is not able to do what i am looking for  8) 8) 8) or any idea ?

but just for fun

http://youtu.be/FqGjkqaTC7Y

good uck at all

Laurent

Offline Hitman

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2012, 06:30:04 AM »
@Woopy
I used an old TV yoke cut in half for my toroid and noticed my led lamp gets brighter when I apply more pressure on my 2 halves, maybe if its in one piece we will get better results or more efficient results...

I was also able to melt 23awg wire with 9 volts input, output voltage unloaded was off the scale, tried with a 10X probe but couldn't fit the entire peak to peak wave form. Playing with the vertical position on the scope I could only estimate it was about 3 times the height of my scope screen which would be something over 3000volts !! don't wanna fry my scope either.

I will wind a new (not broken) toroid and do more tests.

BTW excellent videos Woopy.

Cheers Michel

Offline woopy

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2012, 10:17:24 AM »
Hi Hitman

bravo

i wondered if a TV yoke would work and you say it is possible.

Yes i think also that a one piece torroid should be better, but what a hell to wind :-X

If you look at Sergdo video , his toroid do not dizzle at all, the diizzle appears only at the welding arc.

My broken torroid dizzle a lot, and i also noticed that when i press the 2 parts the dizzling decrease but not desappears.

Can you say more on the dimension of your yoke and turns of primary and secondary, because i think at this stage of developpement we have to test a lot of different ferrite toroid and winding, to improve our knowledge.
By the way i wonder if a NANOPERM toroid would be better ???

Many thank's :)

Laurent

Offline Jimboot

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Re: very high and powerful voltazh voltage from a small voltage
« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2012, 12:20:04 PM »
@Woopy
I used an old TV yoke cut in half for my toroid and noticed my led lamp gets brighter when I apply more pressure on my 2 halves, maybe if its in one piece we will get better results or more efficient results...

I was also able to melt 23awg wire with 9 volts input, output voltage unloaded was off the scale, tried with a 10X probe but couldn't fit the entire peak to peak wave form. Playing with the vertical position on the scope I could only estimate it was about 3 times the height of my scope screen which would be something over 3000volts !! don't wanna fry my scope either.

I will wind a new (not broken) toroid and do more tests.

BTW excellent videos Woopy.

Cheers Michel





Hey Michel I don't suppose you have a vid? I'm winding my yoke now. Did you use the clips that came with yoke to join it back together? Great work.

 

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