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Author Topic: Flynn PP Motor Idea  (Read 29009 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2006, 04:18:46 PM »
Only "doubled" ?
Snif,I am very sad !

V. Cassar:closed-magnet-cycle-amplifyer,Factor 15X
Kroll:(EM+PM)XHZ
Galey:75gr Neo/ 2KW
Kunel:2 KW/Factor 10X

I think it will be of interest to contact Mr.Hatakeyama,
the patent attourney of Asaoka Keiichiro !

S
  dL

p.s.:I did not exspect that my introduce of Mr.Keiichiros work would
      get such an "net-audience"!



Hi Lanca,

I have been aware of Asaoka's patent for about 2 years now, I did not get it from your communication here. I did not mention this patent to Guido or at other forums simple because it was not a topic at all between me and Guido, so your frustration on mentioning Asaoka' work is not justified and there is no any "net-audince" on his work!  Guido mentioned Asaoka's work probably because he is ALSO aware of his patent, and i do not think any need for turning to Asaoka's patent attorney either! Anybody can tinker with any patent as long as he or she does not market/sell the product.

From Guido letter what Jake kindly republished here from the Yahoo group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pes_flynn_pp/  it may turn out that he is not aware of Cassar, Kroll, Galey or Kunel patents and his playing in FEMM with noticing the flux doubling should not make you sad!
Guido will certainly improve on it because he is also a practical fellow.

I hope these 'explanations' are ok with you, in fact I felt obliged to shed some lights on misunderstood things here.

Muito obrigado!

Gyula

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2006, 04:18:46 PM »

Offline Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2006, 06:07:02 PM »
gn0stik,

Quote
Nice motor design drak!

  Thank you! :)

Quote
I wouldn't use a reed switch, as the timing of reed switching is... problematic, at best. Reed switches are better for detecting the absense of a magnetic field than the presense of one, there are normally open, or normally closed ones. The normally open ones are the ones they use for alarm systems, to detect when a door or window has been opened. Those types of applications are what they are best at.
 

  Noted. I will stick with light sensers. Thanks

Quote
Hall effect sensors are powered sensors, however they are far more reliable at proximity switching than reed switches are. I don't know much about mosfets myself, and would probably just use a relay for polarity switching.

  I was going to use a relay because that was the only thing I knew how to hook up. I wonder if it would be able to keep up with the speed. Will probably try the mosfet thing out.

Quote
The MOST critical part of the construction of this device, will be permanent magnet positioning, and switching. All of your output power hinges on those two factors. Other factors would include permanent magnet size.

If you design your rotor with specific large magnets in mind, you can cut holes for them in the rotor so that one pole faces inside and the other faces outside, you can use the inside pole for motive force and the outside pole for inductance in coils, turning it into a motor/generator.

  Im not sure what you mean here. There won't be any magnents on the rotor because that would cause a pull back once the Flynn device has switched polarities and sent the magnetic flux to the other wheel. Thereby letting the piece of metal on the side of the Flynn device with no magnetic flux just coast on by. If there was a magnent there it would not be able to coast on by.

Quote
For pure motor function you could just remove the coil assembly and allow the shaft to do work.

  Again, I'm not sure I'm following you here.

Quote
I forgot to ask, what did you do your model in?

  A friend let me use their 3d Studio Max.


jake,

Quote
Your idea is being discussed favorably on the peswiki flynn pp yahoo discussion group.

  Thats pretty awesome. I hope alot of people see it. Because if someone builds it before me and it works then I will skip the wood process and go straight to aluminum.


longwolf,

Quote
Beautiful animation.

  Thank you! :)

Quote
The way you have the FPP's arranged the metal pieces in the rotor will only be attracted to the first finger they encounter.

The easiest solution would be to rotate your FPP's by 90 degrees so that the metal pieces are attracted to both fingers at the same time.

  I thought of that but can't remember the reason I flipped them back. I think it was because of the speed of switching the Flynn device back and forth, could it handle it? That and that makes for alot more metal pieces. Would the metal pieces being closer together be effected by the Flynn device? The more I think about it after you said that, it would be better for them to be that way. I will redo the animation tonight and flip them by 90. Thank you.

Quote
Another way would be to arrange the 'fingers' so that they stratal the rotor.
That way you would reduce or eliminate the warpage of the rotor because each side of the metal piece would be pulled in opposite directions.

  In order to stratal the rotor I would need the two wheels laying flat and tie them together with a chain. I didn't think of strataling the rotor, but my original idea was to use the chain. Then somebody said the chain would cause more friction. I think it was jake. Without two wheels, when reversing the polarity on the Flynn device to let the metal coast by it would waste half the energy if the other side of the Flynn device wasn't being utilized.


gyulasun,

Quote
But if you already have got laminates in your junk box or you have easy (and cheap) access to them, of course you are encouraged to use laminates! Laminates are indeed easy to work with (ferrites are rigid and break easily.)

   Cool, I will use laminents then.

Quote
See for instance this basic link on a H bridge but you can find many other circuits:

http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/Robotics/tutorial/h-bridge/bjt-circuit.html

If you have already got some solid state relays i think you can also use them.

  Cool, Thank you very much for the info. I think that is exactly what I want to use.

Quote
I fully agree with longwolf: your metal pieces should be rotated 90 degrees to position and embed them radially in the rotor and the PP legs are also to be rotated 90 degree accordingly, so that the two poles at the end of the legs should attract the metal (rather laminate) plates at the same time.

   See above. Thanks.

Quote
Drak, it was me who mentioned your video link at a Yahoo mail group I am also a member where Joe Flynn's parallel path topics are also discussed, the membership in that group is only 66 at the moment, here the membership is 2729 at the moment. Maybe i should have asked for your permission for posting it first, sorry for this, I was with good intents and was inspired to communicate.

  No, No problem at all. The more people that can improve on it the better. If you have read any of my previous posts you will know that I don't care. The animation is hosted on my website and I think I get 10gig bandwidth a month so it's no big deal. If that gets used up (which I doubt), then I will just buy more.

Offline Liberty

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2006, 06:50:46 PM »
Quote from Drak,

"There won't be any magnents on the rotor because that would cause a pull back once the Flynn device has switched polarities and sent the magnetic flux to the other wheel. Thereby letting the piece of metal on the side of the Flynn device with no magnetic flux just coast on by. If there was a magnent there it would not be able to coast on by."

Not only that, but the Flynn device would no longer be able to switch the flux if external magnets were used.  Magnets upset the balance within the Flynn device, causing the flux to flow when you don't want it to, and where you don't want it to.

JackH's valve device is a better choice of device to use for your motor, (if what I am thinking of, is his device).  It may be less work to wait for JackH's valve to be available for a better performing motor and less power usage.

Drak you have made a very nice annimation of the motor.  Looks very nice.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2006, 06:50:46 PM »
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gn0stik

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2006, 07:03:49 PM »
Im not sure what you mean here. There won't be any magnents on the rotor because that would cause a pull back once the Flynn device has switched polarities and sent the magnetic flux to the other wheel. Thereby letting the piece of metal on the side of the Flynn device with no magnetic flux just coast on by. If there was a magnent there it would not be able to coast on by.

The pull back wouldn't be as large a problem as you think, as the flux on the other side, once switched would be 4x as great as the pull on the side with the pullback.. Of course if you used steel there, the pull would be less, but not completely negated. And if those are steel plates they will become magnetized over time anyway, under such an intense field, and you will be fighting the same problem, however less intense it might be if you were using magnets..

My bad, however, I assumed those were magnets on the rotor, I misinterpreted "magnetically attractive", as meaning magnets instead of simply ferrous. The design is clear to me now. Those are the armatures on the rotor.

Regards.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 07:52:46 PM by gn0stik »

Offline Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2006, 09:32:10 PM »
Liberty


Quote
JackH's valve device is a better choice of device to use for your motor, (if what I am thinking of, is his device).  It may be less work to wait for JackH's valve to be available for a better performing motor and less power usage.

  No offence to JackH or you. I hope Jack gets his valves out there and gets patents on them. That would be great! I just don't feel I want to wait around untill it is available. I might be waiting around till I'm 70 myself. Not because of Jack, but because of the system. Flynn has patents, but I can't go to the store yet and buy one of his motors.

Quote
Drak you have made a very nice annimation of the motor.  Looks very nice.

  Thank you kindly, I should have another one up tonight or tommorow.


gn0stik,

Quote
My bad, however, I assumed those were magnets on the rotor, I misinterpreted "magnetically attractive", as meaning magnets instead of simply ferrous. The design is clear to me now. Those are the armatures on the rotor.


  Not a problem. I tried to make them look like steel but I'm not to good with this modeler.



 Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2006, 09:32:10 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2006, 10:09:36 PM »
Quote from Drak:

"No offence to JackH or you. I hope Jack gets his valves out there and gets patents on them. That would be great! I just don't feel I want to wait around untill it is available. I might be waiting around till I'm 70 myself. Not because of Jack, but because of the system. Flynn has patents, but I can't go to the store yet and buy one of his motors."

I understand what you mean.  I would tell you the device that I am thinking of, but I am concerned that it may be the same as JackH's valve device and I don't want to reveal it out of common respect for the inventor just in case.   Wish you the best on your motor.

Liberty

Online lancaIV

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2006, 02:45:00 AM »
Hello and ola gyula,
Asaokas attourney will only be the "gate" to Asaoka himself,
and it is clear that we can work in HU or POR and other countries
except US,DE,JP privately or in commercial manner with his
invention objects !
But we would have to invest more "time" into the trial/error !!!
When he,Asaoka, wrote that his device can be realized with
"low cost" conditions,why should we not ask him what he
understands as "low cost" ?
What he exspects as honoration for an eventual team-work.
His -only JP- publication of an AC-amplifier is from my view
the "nonplusultra",the concept is easier than
Menzer(commutation difficulty !) !!!

Sincerely
            de Lanca

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2006, 02:45:00 AM »
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Offline Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2006, 07:50:58 PM »
  Ok, I have the other animation done with the device and pieces of metal turned 90 degrees. I don't like the way it looks. I believe the 90 degrees is alot better but I think the metal pieces need to be tapazoid in shape. Will do another animation with the trapazoid shape and upload them both at the same time.



 Drak

Offline Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 02:58:52 AM »
  Ok, here is the animation with the trapazoid shapes. Hope the link works. http://www.darktruths.com/flynnidea3.avi

  Thoughts?



 Drak

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 02:58:52 AM »
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Offline longwolf

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2006, 04:35:16 AM »
Lookin Good!

Check here if you'd like an idea of how a U shaped device would look.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Flynn_Parallel_Path_OEM_motor

The last 2 images on the page only show one arm of each FPP.
The second arm would be placed above the disk made for holding the attractive metal pieces.

Mike seems to have stopped trying to make this motor.
It seems that cutting the laminates wrecked the annealing.

But it's possible to buy pre made U or C shaped laminates.

I also think that your trapezoid metal pieces may work better than his disks.


Offline Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2006, 04:45:13 AM »
longwolf,

Quote
Check here if you'd like an idea of how a U shaped device would look.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Flynn_Parallel_Path_OEM_motor

The last 2 images on the page only show one arm of each FPP.
The second arm would be placed above the disk made for holding the attractive metal pieces.

  I seen that earlier today, I'm trying to figure out where the magnents go. Isn't the whole purpose of the FPP is to stear magnents? Looks like he has a pretty interesting design.


Quote
It seems that cutting the laminates wrecked the annealing.

  It did? I wonder how, because laminates would need to be cut on this motor too. Hmmm....


 Drak

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2006, 04:45:13 AM »
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Offline longwolf

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2006, 05:13:14 AM »
With the short U's that Mike used, the magnets would go on the 'corners' of the U's one each side of the coil.
Then the second stack of laminates is placed on top of those magnets, sandwiching the rotor.

I believe you could use the ready made U's without cutting them.
Just find some that are close enough to the right size already.

The ready-made laminates have mounting wholes in those corners
But longer arms would allow you to move the magnets closer to the ends of the arms and off of the mounting holes.

Here are links to a few sites that sell laminates:
http://members.aol.com/indintl/puistlmeta.htm
http://www.tempel.com/products/tld/UI/UI5075.html
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/motor-laminations-43021005-1.htmlhttp://www.th\omasnet.com/products/motor-laminations-43021005-1.html
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 06:38:32 AM by longwolf »

jake

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2006, 06:30:27 PM »
I don't think Mike was happy with the results of that motor.

I think the peswiki group is working on another design that they expect to work better.

(bottom line - I wouldn't copy the design without talking to Mike about it.  I think he would steer you away from it.)

jake

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2006, 03:05:55 AM »
Quote
Mike seems to have stopped trying to make this motor.
It seems that cutting the laminates wrecked the annealing.

I think waterjet cutting would be a good way to cut lams if you have access to it.  You need to back up the steel with something like plastic because it is so thin the waterjet will try to curl the edges.  You can of course stack numerous layers on a waterjet if you can hold them together.

Laser cutting supposedly works well too, but I would worry more about the heat of laser cutting affecting the lams.  I don't think it has the curling problem.

Offline JackH

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2006, 04:08:55 AM »
Hello jake,

Cutting laminents will only effect the annealing of the lam very close to the cut.  In most casses this will not hurt them.

Later,,,,JackH

 

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