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Author Topic: Flynn PP Motor Idea  (Read 28880 times)

Offline Drak

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Flynn PP Motor Idea
« on: June 19, 2006, 06:16:21 AM »
Ok here is my idea for a Flynn Parallel Path Motor:

http://www.darktruths.com/flynnidea.avi

  Any Ideas on how to improve on this?

  I'm sure you all know how the Flynn demo device works. I have tested the Flynn device and it does work as specified. The wheels are non magneticly attractive (wood). The metal pieces on the wheels however are magneticly attractive. As soon as a metal piece gets to the point of pull back on one wheel the polarity on the Flynn device is reversed and the metal piece on the other wheel is pulled in. Then the process is repeated.

  Adding more devices to the system (as in the animation) should do what? I'm asking because I don't know.

 Drak

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Flynn PP Motor Idea
« on: June 19, 2006, 06:16:21 AM »

jake

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2006, 02:13:30 PM »
Drak,

I really like the concept.  Excellent animation.  I think it would be a good concept to build on.

Adding more devices produces more torque, and potentially smoother torque.  Llike an 8 cylinder motor vs a 1 cylinder.  You have more points in the rotation where you are adding torque to the output shaft, which gives smoother power.

From a mechanical standpoint your concept would have to be altered to make it strong enough to hold up to the forces.  Your rotors as shown would just bend together and stick to the stator if the stator were spaced in close proximity.  Conceptually I like the idea.  I would consider it a worthy candidate to develop into a prototypeable design.

I think it is one of the more exciting concepts I have seen.

If you want help, let me know.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 03:47:04 PM »
Hi Drak,

Very good arrangement of making Parallel Path principle work as a motor and I also agree with Jake on the mechanical needs (though in the animation they do not matter of course).

Some thoughts on the practical side:

1) I would not use the metal pieces but (rectangular) ferrite pieces instead, to avoid eddy currents in the metal pieces. The ferrite pieces could be obtained from burnt-out line output transformers used in televisions or CRT PC monitors and maybe freely given away in repair services/shops. Or in the lack of ferrites, normal mains transformer laminations could be used.  These could also be embedded/glued into the rotor body.
2) To sense the moment when a polarity change is needed, a Hall sensor could be used that would be triggered by a small permanent magnet glued to the rotor at an appropiate place.
3) The polarity change could be done with the known H bridge, using either bipolar or MOSFET power transistors.

Of course many other practical issues can crop up and many solutions exist for them, the above three suggestions are the ones that suddenly occured to me as maybe important ones for a start.

rgds
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 03:47:04 PM »
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Offline Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2006, 01:06:03 AM »
 Jake,
Quote
I really like the concept.  Excellent animation.  I think it would be a good concept to build on.

  Thank you! :)

Quote
Adding more devices produces more torque, and potentially smoother torque.  Llike an 8 cylinder motor vs a 1 cylinder.  You have more points in the rotation where you are adding torque to the output shaft, which gives smoother power.

  (in theory) Do you think it would increase effeciency? Flynn PP is supposed to be 400% (I only see it at %200...anyhow). So adding another device make it 800% then another at 1200% ect.. Or would it just stabalize the %400? With one device I have 2 extra power from the P-Magnets. With another device I have 4 P-Magnets powering the device, then 8, then 16 etc..

Quote
From a mechanical standpoint your concept would have to be altered to make it strong enough to hold up to the forces.  Your rotors as shown would just bend together and stick to the stator if the stator were spaced in close proximity.


  Yes you are correct I have dealt with that problem before. I can't seem to find a metal stabalizer piece that I can bolt the wood wheel to (not sure what its called but I can see it clearly in my head). The only wooden way I can think of to fix this would be to use wooden pillers say 4 or 8 of them going from the inside of one wheel to the other "ECK!". Or a 2X4 and bolt each wheel to it and drill a hole in the center, lol.


 gyulasun,

Quote
Very good arrangement of making Parallel Path principle work as a motor and I also agree with Jake on the mechanical needs (though in the animation they do not matter of course).

  Thank you :)
  See jakes reply above.

Quote
1) I would not use the metal pieces but (rectangular) ferrite pieces instead, to avoid eddy currents in the metal pieces. The ferrite pieces could be obtained from burnt-out line output transformers used in televisions or CRT PC monitors and maybe freely given away in repair services/shops. Or in the lack of ferrites, normal mains transformer laminations could be used.  These could also be embedded/glued into the rotor body.

  Hmm, ferrite pieces? Can these things be ordered at a specific size? Do they have more, less, or the same attractive power as soft iron laminents? Laminents were my first choice because they are easy to work with. Is eddy currents the only advantage of ferrites? I never thought of ferrites.

Quote
2) To sense the moment when a polarity change is needed, a Hall sensor could be used that would be triggered by a small permanent magnet glued to the rotor at an appropiate place.

  Thought of using a reed switch, but wouldn't you need a magnet that is exactly the right sizie in order kick it on and off at the right time? I was thinking more along the lines of a light senser. Use another wheel with notches cut out in the right spots to allow the light to pass throught at the right time, kinda like the old mouse wheels used to work. Is a hall sensor the same as a reed switch? Anyhow a hall sensor or a light sensor would be better to reduce drag of a physical one.

Quote
3) The polarity change could be done with the known H bridge, using either bipolar or MOSFET power transistors.

  Ok now you are getting into the stuff I really need help on. I was just going to use a solid state relay because I don't know anything about MOSFET things. Well, at least wiring them up for a polarity change. I will google that and see if I can find a schematic of how to use that..Thanks :)


 Drak

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2006, 02:20:48 AM »
You will ever stay (C8-ceramic magnets related) in the
400% range !
But you can also change the output-power through
3x/4x...wheels use !

S
  dL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2006, 02:20:48 AM »
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Offline Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2006, 02:23:48 AM »
lancaIV


Quote
You will ever stay (C8-ceramic magnets related) in the
400% range !
But you can also change the output-power through
3x/4x...wheels use !

  You mean use bigger wheels? or more wheels?


 Drak

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2006, 02:51:38 AM »
A physically "provocating"question:
probably you will get with bigger wheels an extra-lever effect,
but my statement has been related to "more wheels use" !

S
  dL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2006, 02:51:38 AM »
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Offline Drak

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2006, 02:57:25 AM »
Quote
but my statement has been related to "more wheels use" !

  Ah, ok. What if I had two devices running independently. At (in theory) 400% each, would that be a total of 800%? If so then what is the difference of making two devices vs putting more Flynn devices on the same device. My head is spinning, lol


 Drak

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2006, 03:10:07 AM »
pure maths:

wheel-concept 1 input  1 unit,100%   = output 400%,4 units
wheel-concept 2 input  1 unit,100%   = output 400%,4 units

resume:2 units in-,8 units output

The use of more wheels will only get a higher power-density,
but the relation 100% in:400 % out will stay !

S
  dL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2006, 03:10:07 AM »
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gn0stik

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2006, 03:10:25 AM »


  Thought of using a reed switch, but wouldn't you need a magnet that is exactly the right sizie in order kick it on and off at the right time? I was thinking more along the lines of a light senser. Use another wheel with notches cut out in the right spots to allow the light to pass throught at the right time, kinda like the old mouse wheels used to work. Is a hall sensor the same as a reed switch? Anyhow a hall sensor or a light sensor would be better to reduce drag of a physical one.


Nice motor design drak!, I wouldn't use a reed switch, as the timing of reed switching is... problematic, at best. Reed switches are better for detecting the absense of a magnetic field than the presense of one, there are normally open, or normally closed ones. The normally open ones are the ones they use for alarm systems, to detect when a door or window has been opened. Those types of applications are what they are best at.

Hall effect sensors are powered sensors, however they are far more reliable at proximity switching than reed switches are. I don't know much about mosfets myself, and would probably just use a relay for polarity switching.

The MOST critical part of the construction of this device, will be permanent magnet positioning, and switching. All of your output power hinges on those two factors. Other factors would include permanent magnet size.

If you design your rotor with specific large magnets in mind, you can cut holes for them in the rotor so that one pole faces inside and the other faces outside, you can use the inside pole for motive force and the outside pole for inductance in coils, turning it into a motor/generator.

For pure motor function you could just remove the coil assembly and allow the shaft to do work.

jake

  • Guest
Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 03:15:08 AM »
Drak,
Your idea is being discussed favorably on the peswiki flynn pp yahoo discussion group.
Jake


Quote
Re: QuickField flux software

Hi Gyula,
that design looks very promising.
I'd like soon or later to try to experiment with some engine; I've
build some engine for my RC airplanes, they are from scratch and
made w/o late. Their efficiencies are around 70-75% at about 200W
but we know that even in the best winding scheme there always is
some windings in the stator working against the others, especially
in delta connections. The counter torque from back EMF is used by
the sensorless controller to understand the position of the rotor
relative to the stator. I remember some discussion on this issues in
forums dedicated to home made engines for RC models.
The longer I think about that the more I'm tempted to start building
something around Drak's idea.
Is someone already building something like that?


Meanwhile, I'm using Femm to simulate the idea described in the
Asaoka's patent and surprisingly it seems that the variation of the
flux in the central core (but w/o gaps) is doubled by the magnets
presence; I mean it is not only shifted, the delta amplitude of
flux,calculated for +i and -i in the coils, is doubled. This should
be easy to experiment using the same material of the PP device.
I'll post some results as soon as possible.

Ciao,
Guido

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 03:15:08 AM »
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Offline lancaIV

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2006, 03:30:42 AM »
Only "doubled" ?
Snif,I am very sad !

V. Cassar:closed-magnet-cycle-amplifyer,Factor 15X
Kroll:(EM+PM)XHZ
Galey:75gr Neo/ 2KW
Kunel:2 KW/Factor 10X

I think it will be of interest to contact Mr.Hatakeyama,
the patent attourney of Asaoka Keiichiro !

S
  dL

p.s.:I did not exspect that my introduce of Mr.Keiichiros work would
      get such an "net-audience"!


gn0stik

  • Guest
Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2006, 03:44:37 AM »
I forgot to ask, what did you do your model in?

Offline longwolf

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2006, 04:59:53 AM »

Beautiful animation.
Unfortunately the idea has some flaws.

Notice how each side of the FPP has two 'fingers'.
While one side of the FPP is energized it will have one N finger and one S finger.

The way you have the FPP's arranged the metal pieces in the rotor will only be attracted to the first finger they encounter.

The easiest solution would be to rotate your FPP's by 90 degrees so that the metal pieces are attracted to both fingers at the same time.

Another way would be to arrange the 'fingers' so that they stratal the rotor.
That way you would reduce or eliminate the warpage of the rotor because each side of the metal piece would be pulled in opposite directions.

Try this cheap experiment.
Take two magnets and two thin pieces of metal, I used razor blades.
Lay one blade on a table.
Now take the two magnets  and stick them to the other blade about 1/2 inch apart with one facing down and the other facing up.
Now slowly move the magnets toward the blade on the table.
Do it from several angles to get an idea of which orientation will give you the strongest pull.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Flynn PP Motor Idea
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2006, 03:17:01 PM »
Hi Drak,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
1) I would not use the metal pieces but (rectangular) ferrite pieces instead, to avoid eddy currents in the metal pieces. The ferrite pieces could be obtained from burnt-out line output transformers used in televisions or CRT PC monitors and maybe freely given away in repair services/shops. Or in the lack of ferrites, normal mains transformer laminations could be used.  These could also be embedded/glued into the rotor body.

  Hmm, ferrite pieces? Can these things be ordered at a specific size? Do they have more, less, or the same attractive power as soft iron laminents? Laminents were my first choice because they are easy to work with. Is eddy currents the only advantage of ferrites? I never thought of ferrites.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, my only reason of mentioning Ferrites is to get rid of eddy currents. You can use laminates with equal success, in this application I do not think Ferrites have any advantage. See some info on amidon ferrite plates (in fact they call it Antenna Plates, AP) at the bottom of this link:

http://www.amidoncorp.com/aai_ferriterods.htm   (Material #33 is ok for your motor.)

But if you already have got laminates in your junk box or you have easy (and cheap) access to them, of course you are encouraged to use laminates! Laminates are indeed easy to work with (ferrites are rigid and break easily.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
2) To sense the moment when a polarity change is needed, a Hall sensor could be used that would be triggered by a small permanent magnet glued to the rotor at an appropiate place.

  Thought of using a reed switch, but wouldn't you need a magnet that is exactly the right sizie in order kick it on and off at the right time? I was thinking more along the lines of a light senser. Use another wheel with notches cut out in the right spots to allow the light to pass throught at the right time, kinda like the old mouse wheels used to work. Is a hall sensor the same as a reed switch? Anyhow a hall sensor or a light sensor would be better to reduce drag of a physical one.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course you can use light sensors instead of Hall devices if you are more familiar with them, no problem. See gnOstik comments on this too. Reed switches are bulky and not as sensitive as Hall devices. Many manufacturers produce Hall devices, see this first link coming up in goggle.com:
http://www.anachip.com.tw/eng/product/sensor/index.php

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
3) The polarity change could be done with the known H bridge, using either bipolar or MOSFET power transistors.

  Ok now you are getting into the stuff I really need help on. I was just going to use a solid state relay because I don't know anything about MOSFET things. Well, at least wiring them up for a polarity change. I will google that and see if I can find a schematic of how to use that..Thanks :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See for instance this basic link on a H bridge but you can find many other circuits:

http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/Robotics/tutorial/h-bridge/bjt-circuit.html

If you have already got some solid state relays i think you can also use them.

I fully agree with longwolf: your metal pieces should be rotated 90 degrees to position and embed them radially in the rotor and the PP legs are also to be rotated 90 degree accordingly, so that the two poles at the end of the legs should attract the metal (rather laminate) plates at the same time.

Drak, it was me who mentioned your video link at a Yahoo mail group I am also a member where Joe Flynn's parallel path topics are also discussed, the membership in that group is only 66 at the moment, here the membership is 2729 at the moment. Maybe i should have asked for your permission for posting it first, sorry for this, I was with good intents and was inspired to communicate. This is what I wrote to Guido:
" Let me show you a very interesting animation on a PP motor I have seen today at Stefan Hartmann's www.overunity.com Forum from a member there, Drak:
http://www.darktruths.com/flynnidea.avi    and you can read his thoughts on it here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1172.msg9062/topicseen.html#msg9062 "

The only answer to this has come from Guido what Jake published here already. No other discussion yet.
The link to this Yahoo group is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pes_flynn_pp/


Thanks and good luck in tinkering!

Gyula

 

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