Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.  (Read 939524 times)

Rosemary Ainslie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #330 on: January 25, 2012, 03:56:42 AM »
Rosemary:

I hate to interrupt, but I noticed your reply #273 directing people to your blog.  I read something on your blog that I could hardly believe.  From November 17, 2010:

"...This would certainly account for current flow.  But the problem is this.  Our scientists know the speed at which one valence electron would influence another valence electron.  And it would take up to half an hour  for it to travel through the average two meters of circuit wire before it would reach the light to light it or to reach the kettle to heat it.  There would be a required delay between the switching of the switch and the lighting of the light to get that process started...."

Do you believe that standard theory says a light bulb should take up to half an hour to turn on?  I have managed to live my whole life (up to now) without hearing that one.
Seriously, a half hour?

Bubba1

Yes Bubba.  The rate at which one valence electron would influence another valence electron takes a certain KNOWN quotient of time.  Therefore, IF current flow comprises the flow of VALENCE ELECTRONS - given some required length of wiring between the plug and the appliance - then it would take about twenty minutes before the light would light - or the kettle start to cook.  That's not my math Bubba.  That's standard physics.  I mention it because - I like you - find that when I switch on an electric appliance that current flow is also that dynamic that it's instantaneous.  Which means that it is possibly not entirely valid to claim that current flow is the transfer of energy via valence electrons - is my point.

Regards,
Rosemary

edited

Bubba1

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 80
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #331 on: January 25, 2012, 04:07:32 AM »
It is not standard physics.  There must be some misunderstanding.

Rosemary Ainslie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #332 on: January 25, 2012, 04:16:34 AM »
It is not standard physics.  There must be some misunderstanding.

Bubba - if you've read that much then read on.  There are many 'optional' proposals to account for the flow of current to be the flow of electrons.  But the one contradicts the other.  If you take the trouble to speak to a physicist as opposed to an engineer - then you'll find that the purists ONLY refer to current flow as the flow of charge.  The imposition of the 'electron' according to Dyson in his 'conceptual physics' was simply to model the concept for purposes of 'understanding' the transfer of energy.  But the concept has been used for so long now that everyone refers to the flow of current as the flow of electrons - assuming that it carries the FULL weight of scientific endorsement.  It does not.  There are huge gaps in our knowledge.  It's presumed that all is known.  Far from it.  And I assure you - that example is only one of MANY concepts that are intrinsically contradictory.  I've listed some of them.   

Regards,
Rosemary

poynt99

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 3582
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #333 on: January 25, 2012, 04:18:06 AM »
The oscilloscope probes are placed directly across the batteries that ground is at the source rail and the probe is at the drain rail.  Which is standard convention.  Then. During the period when the oscillation is greater than zero - in other words - when the battery is DISCHARGING - then it's voltage falls.  And it SERIOUSLY falls.  It goes from + 12 volts to + 0.5.  Given a  supply source of 6 batteries for example, then it goes from + 72 volts to + 3 volts.  At which point the oscillation reaches its peak positive voltage.  And this voltage increase is during the period when the applied signal at the gate of Q1, is negative.  WE KNOW that this FAR EXCEEDS THE BATTERY RATING.  In order for that battery to drop its voltage from + 12V to + 0.5V then it must have discharged A SERIOUS AMOUNT OF CURRENT.  Effectively it would have had to discharge virtually it's ENTIRE potential as this relates to its watt hour rating.  We EXPECT the battery voltage to fall during the discharge cycle.  But we CERTAINLY DO NOT expect it to fall to such a ridiculous level in such a small fraction of a moment AND SO REPEATEDLY - WITH EACH OSCILLATION.

The absolute worst case load that can be applied to the batteries is determined by the DC resistance of the load. This is because any AC present simply increases the over-all impedance. Therefore, with a load of 11 Ohms DC (this is the worst case), and a battery voltage (B+) of roughly 72VDC, the worst case (highest) current that can be drawn from the batteries is simply:

72VDC/11 Ohms = 6.5 Amperes.

With for example a 100 Amp-hour (A-h) battery, there would be roughly 15 hours of use available before the batteries were considered fully discharged. Out of interest, the power delivered by the batteries would amount to about 471 Watts.

So, if you were to take your load resistor and connect it directly to your battery array, this is approximately how long the batteries would last before they were considered "dead".

Your actual circuit however is one harboring a considerable amount of parasitic inductance throughout, especially in the long connecting wires to the battery array. As such, when the MOSFET bursts into its 1.5MHz oscillation, the circuit impedances become active and limit the net average current and power delivered to the load.

Taking this inductance and oscillation into consideration, it is not good practice to acquire battery voltage measurements at the "Drain Rail", because at this point there is an excessive inductive reactance between this point and the actual B+ terminal. As such, what will be observed is a large voltage swing, far in excess of the B+ voltage. Power measurements computed with this voltage measurement can only produce a "reactive" power result (Google "reactive power"). The unit for reactive power is "VAR", Volt-Amps-reactive.

I see this clearly in the simulations.

To obtain a "real" Battery power computation, the B+ must be measured directly between the battery posts, i.e. between B+ and B-. (Google "real power").

PhiChaser

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #334 on: January 25, 2012, 04:28:41 AM »
Hey guys, I seriously enjoy reading your discussions!!! My question would be why you don't have VOMs connected directly to the batteries while running your tests? Sorry to interrupt but it seems like if you're measuring batteries you would want some sort of meter bettween the + and - (B+ and B-?), or at the ends of the battery bank or whatever, especially if they are discharching so quickly. Would be fun to watch an analog VOM drop that fast eh? I'm a noob here so please forgive my intrusiveness...

PC

Rosemary Ainslie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #335 on: January 25, 2012, 04:34:10 AM »
I'll get back to you later Poynty.  I'm finally beginning to feel tired.  What a pleasure.  Maybe I'll get some sleep.

R

poynt99

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 3582
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #336 on: January 25, 2012, 04:35:20 AM »
PC,

Placing a DC meter or VOM directly across the battery terminals will not produce too much excitement I'm afraid. Why? Because the battery voltage (measured directly) doesn't actually dip that much. And for what little it does vary, the meter will average those small variations out and retain a fairly steady voltage reading.

PhiChaser

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #337 on: January 25, 2012, 05:55:06 AM »
PC,

Placing a DC meter or VOM directly across the battery terminals will not produce too much excitement I'm afraid. Why? Because the battery voltage (measured directly) doesn't actually dip that much. And for what little it does vary, the meter will average those small variations out and retain a fairly steady voltage reading.

A VOM wouldn't drop to 0.5v or is the 'recharge rate' really high or something?. I'm confused, I thought that was what the excitement was about!
PC
edit:changed frequency for recharge rate

Rosemary Ainslie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #338 on: January 25, 2012, 06:54:12 AM »
A VOM wouldn't drop to 0.5v or is the 'recharge rate' really high or something?. I'm confused, I thought that was what the excitement was about!
PC
edit:changed frequency for recharge rate

Hi PhiChaser -
Nice to see your post.  Actually I think it's a really good proposal.  We actually tried this but the problem is that they only operate at slower frequencies.  I can't remember what was stipulated.  What it probably DOES manage is to oscillate from current from grid supplies.  So it's frequency tolerance is possibly 50 Hertz or thereby.  (Sorry.  I wrote 220H - probably thinking of the supply voltage.  I'm getting seriously old) But at the range of frequencies that we apply it just sits tight - full center - with nowhere to go.  Just can't respond quick enough.  But I agree.  They're a neat means of actually seeing that current reversal number - as a rule.  Otherwise our only proof is our scope displays.

And you're right of course.  We're trying to explain that rather drunk swing of the voltage from an oscillation that during one half of the cycle falls to 0.5v's per battery and on the other half - climbs to a little under 24 volts.  In fact.  The upswing can be more than double.  And we've got record of the down swing that falls below zero.  So the peaks at each half of each oscillation go  WAY past the battery's capacity and rating.  And to argue that amount of discharge - recharge - we'd need to find CONSIDERABLY more power than is reasonable - and from somewhere that's NOT from that battery supply.

Anyway.  Welcome to the discussion. And feel free to ask questions.  We all need to.  It's the healthiest possible way to learn anything at all.  God knows.  I've got a fair share of my own.
 ::)

Kindest regards,
Rosemary
edited for emphasis
SORRY.  I deleted the first as I took the wrong download.  This one may be clearer.  There's a 48 volt supply.  And the PINK trace is the battery voltage.  Channel 2.  Note that the battery voltage is nearly 3 x's the supply.  The mean battery average should be there in the display.  Sorry I forgot to check.  Anyway.  About 48 volts or thereby
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 09:54:34 AM by Rosemary Ainslie »

Rosemary Ainslie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #339 on: January 25, 2012, 09:13:56 AM »
OK Poynty - I think I've understood what you're saying here.

The absolute worst case load that can be applied to the batteries is determined by the DC resistance of the load. This is because any AC present simply increases the over-all impedance. Therefore, with a load of 11 Ohms DC (this is the worst case), and a battery voltage (B+) of roughly 72VDC, the worst case (highest) current that can be drawn from the batteries is simply:

72VDC/11 Ohms = 6.5 Amperes.
Indeed.  No problem with this.  Except I'll reserve comment related to 'This is because any AC present simply increases the over-all impedance.'  I take it that this increase to the impedance is related to the applied frequency.  I'm not sure that there's much difference in the computed AC amperage flow from energy applied from our grids to the energy applied from a battery with the load simply placed in series with that supply.  Much of a muchness.  It's at those higher frequencies that there's a reduced current flow due to higher impedance.  Which would, unquestionably increase the amount of relative resistance and REDUCE the rate of current flow - correspondingly. 

With for example a 100 Amp-hour (A-h) battery, there would be roughly 15 hours of use available before the batteries were considered fully discharged. Out of interest, the power delivered by the batteries would amount to about 471 Watts.

So, if you were to take your load resistor and connect it directly to your battery array, this is approximately how long the batteries would last before they were considered "dead".
So.  This is still in line with that standard model. 

Your actual circuit however is one harboring a considerable amount of parasitic inductance throughout, especially in the long connecting wires to the battery array. As such, when the MOSFET bursts into its 1.5MHz oscillation, the circuit impedances become active and limit the net average current and power delivered to the load.
Absolutely.

Taking this inductance and oscillation into consideration, it is not good practice to acquire battery voltage measurements at the "Drain Rail", because at this point there is an excessive inductive reactance between this point and the actual B+ terminal. As such, what will be observed is a large voltage swing, far in excess of the B+ voltage. Power measurements computed with this voltage measurement can only produce a "reactive" power result (Google "reactive power"). The unit for reactive power is "VAR", Volt-Amps-reactive.
Not actually.  That rather MONSTROUS voltage swing is never apparent on a standard switching circuit.  All that one sees there is the very high spiking that is managed at each switch.  The Spike itself - may exceed the battery supply voltage - but the battery voltage stays on track - more or less.

To obtain a "real" Battery power computation, the B+ must be measured directly between the battery posts, i.e. between B+ and B-. (Google "real power").
I keep telling you this.  We have done this ENTIRE TEST with a FULL OSCILLATION with the scope probe directly ON the positive battery terminal and the probe ground directly ON the negative terminal.  You asked us to do this.  NO INFLUENCE WHATSOEVER from those leads.  THAT SWING IS ALWAYS EVIDENT.

I am reasonably satisfied that there is absolutely no way that the measured voltage over any of the circuit components is ever WRONG.  If the scope shows 12 volts then indeed it's measuring 12 volts.  If the scope shows 0.5 volts then it's measuring 0.5 volts.  24 volts and it's measuring 24 - and so on.  That voltage measurement is SPOT ON.  ALWAYS.  That's our guarantee from the oscilloscope manufacturers.  And those rather zut instruments that we are privileged to access, can read those voltages in real time EASILY.  It is well able to adjust to the applied frequency.  What MAY vary is the current to be determined by that voltage reading.  That can vary if there's a phase shift - which is NOT applicable in our own waveforms.  Or it can vary in line with the impedance.  But that simply needs to be factored in.  It most certainly does NOT make that voltage reading across the battery incorrect.  Indeed, the scopes that we use are PRECISELY ACCURATE to within the smallest and most irrelevant margin of error.  So.  IF it is giving a measurement - you can take that measurement to the bank.  It is PRECISELY CORRECT.  Which also means that IF it is measuring 0.5 volts then THAT'S WHAT IT IS FOLKS.  The LeCroy and the Tektronix manufacturers have staked their reputations on it.  They give us all kinds of guarantees to this effect.

It may be advisable to check that there's no phase shifts.  And it would be advisable in the computation of the AMPERAGE DELIVERED - that one also factors in the impedance.  But that has NOTHING to do with the voltage reading across the battery.  It's SPOT ON. 

Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Changed I to It

Rosemary Ainslie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #340 on: January 25, 2012, 09:29:19 AM »
Poynty.  Unless you can contradict what I've written can we put this argument to bed?  That argument that the battery voltage is wrong?  Otherwise it's going to dog this discussion into infinity.  Your point is correct BUT it is ONLY correct AS IT APPLIES to the computation of current flow.  Which has NOTHING to do with the battery voltage itself.  The voltage reading done by those oscilloscopes is measuring ONLY the amount of potential difference available across whatever those probes are measuring.  Whatever potential difference it's measuring is also what's there.  It's a  MEASUREMENT THAT IS GUARANTEED.

GRANTED - that IF we measure the rate of current flow resulting from that applied potential difference - then we must also acknowledge that regardless of the voltage reading itself - we needs must factor in a higher resistance WHEN AND IF the oscillation is going lickerty split.  BECAUSE that faster oscillation will certainly reduce the rate at which the potential difference across the battery is delivered as current.  But it makes not ONE IOTA of difference to the battery voltage. 

You've been mentioning this argument off and on - since this thread's inception.  It is basically simply NOT correct.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary

edited.  I think I limited the accuracies of the scopes to the voltages across the batteries. It applies to whatever potential difference it is able to read relative to its probe and ground.  Hopefully it's now clearer.

poynt99

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 3582
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #341 on: January 25, 2012, 02:08:08 PM »
A VOM wouldn't drop to 0.5v or is the 'recharge rate' really high or something?. I'm confused, I thought that was what the excitement was about!
PC

It's virtually impossible to pull down a single somewhat charged 12V battery to 0.5V, much less 6 batteries in series!

The voltage measurement is not taken on the battery posts, which is the reason the scope shows a large voltage swing, and this is due to the impedance of the wire between the load and the batteries.

poynt99

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 3582
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #342 on: January 25, 2012, 02:22:15 PM »
Rosemary,

The battery voltage measurement is essentially the "meat of the matter" for my argument against the validity of your power measurements. If you will not argue this, then it would seem we have very little left to discuss.

Rosemary Ainslie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #343 on: January 25, 2012, 02:32:35 PM »
Rosemary,

The battery voltage measurement is essentially the "meat of the matter" for my argument against the validity of your power measurements. If you will not argue this, then it would seem we have very little left to discuss.

I NEVER SAID THAT I WON'T ARGUE IT.  I said that you really need to stop saying that the scopes are picking up the wrong voltage.  OF COURSE I need to argue why that voltage swings.  I have argued it.  I'll try it again.  But right now - what I AM saying is that the scope meter is not wrong.  Those measurements are NOT ERRONEOUS.  IF THEY WERE I'd have cause to quarrel with LeCroy - and that would be RIDICULOUS.

I'll try that argument again.  Meanwhile could I impose on you to JUST READ what I've already tried by way of an explanation?  If it's not understandable then tell me where?  That might help.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary


Rosemary Ainslie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #344 on: January 25, 2012, 02:50:51 PM »
Here's another shot at it.

Put your scope probes at the positive terminal of your battery.  IT CANNOT READ THE VOLTAGE - that potential difference - UNLESS its ground is connected to the NEGATIVE TERMINAL. 

When we apply a positive signal at the gate - of Q1 - in order to CLOSE THE CIRCUIT - then it is able to read the battery voltage.  NO PROBLEM.  If we entirely disconnected the battery from the circuit it would read the battery voltage.  NO PROBLEM. 

THEN.  We apply a negative signal at the gate of Q1.  At the same time we're applying a POSITIVE SIGNAL to the SOURCE LEG OF Q2.  NOT TO THE NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL.  ONLY DIRECTLY TO THE TRANSISTOR Q2.  This positive signal is NOT ON THE CIRCUIT.  It is specifically and ONLY applied to that TRANSISTOR.  To it's source leg.  Q2S.

Do you agree this far?

Kindest as ever,
R
added