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Author Topic: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.  (Read 760745 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1740 on: April 06, 2012, 03:59:45 AM »
@picowatt
The max Id of the IRFPG50 drops to 3.9 Amps at 100 degrees C, a normal operating temp _when properly heatsunk_.

Below, in the single mosfet version, one may view the heatsink of the lone mosfet. It's still there in the 5 transistor version but can't be seen as well.

(ETA: I see that Fuzzy has posted an even better picture of this. Isn't that a cute little heatsink for a mosfet that can dissipate 190 Watts? They got much more realistic on the Gang of Four.... I wonder why.)

I have both failure modes in the 830a, one each. One is shorted all around, and the other is open drain-source and shorted gate-source and of course won't switch. The open came when I had the thermal runaway before I was well-heatsunk, IIRC, and the other came from a short ... I think I applied full battery voltage to the gate or something, I'm not really sure. I've thrown them away already so I can't do any further checking.

You are "preaching to the choir" about failures in mosfets... believe me, I understand how mosfets can fail, having literally blown apart a double handful while developing the TinselKoil. Usually I could find most of the pieces ..... but I'll never know what the landlord must have thought when those "gunshot" like sounds were coming from the basement....."BANG dammit......"

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Offline picowatt

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1741 on: April 06, 2012, 04:13:38 AM »
Rosemary,

I see that in your text describing Test 1 that you do state that you set the FG output to its full negative offset in order to prevent Q1 from turning on.  However, the FIG 3 for Test 1 does not indicate this.

Do you agree that the FIG 3 gate drive signal indicates +12.5 volts being applied to Q1 during the FG's positive portion of the duty cycle and that at that level, Q1 must turn on?

Assuming that the FG output did indeed not go positive during Test 1, is it possible that the FIG 3 is not the correct scope shot for that test?  Possiby the wrong save was pulled from the scope's memory...?

I'll look at the other tests, just trying to get past this discrepancy...

PW


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1742 on: April 06, 2012, 04:15:40 AM »
@picowatt:

Here's Fig 6 from Test 3.

It looks to me like there is some current flowing during the non-oscillating portions. It's really too bad we don't have the common drain trace, which would give a lot more information. The CVR trace is set to 2 v/div and is showing about half a minor division up from zero during the non-osc phase, so that would be around 0.2 volts positive drop.

Recalling that the CVR is 0.25 ohms, that means around 800 mA flowing, I suppose.

Certainly the gate drive signal does not correspond to the description in the paper or Rosemary's present description, going as it does from zero (with oscillations) to around 10 Volts.

Figure 7 again appears to show no voltage drop in the CVR trace, yet the gate signal, once again, is from zero to about 10 volts positive. And of course the claim is that the load heated strongly in this mode.

But that's not what was shown LIVE in the video. These are stored traces obtained at different times with cryptic filenames. What is the chance that the descriptions that we are given do not match the traces we are shown? Considering the history, I mean.....

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1742 on: April 06, 2012, 04:15:40 AM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1743 on: April 06, 2012, 04:19:09 AM »
TK,

Did not mean to "preach"

Hey, were you not dealing with an H bridge on that coil?  I would think the most comon cause of failure would have been simultaneous turn on of the "upper and lower", and then BANG indeed...

Typically, in electronics, were to need goggles for flying wire lead ends when clipped with diagonals, not pieces of package material flying about!

It's all good...

PW

PW

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1744 on: April 06, 2012, 04:19:39 AM »
Rosemary,

I see that in your text describing Test 1 that you do state that you set the FG output to its full negative offset in order to prevent Q1 from turning on.  However, the FIG 3 for Test 1 does not indicate this.

Do you agree that the FIG 3 gate drive signal indicates +12.5 volts being applied to Q1 during the FG's positive portion of the duty cycle and that at that level, Q1 must turn on?

Assuming that the FG output did indeed not go positive during Test 1, is it possible that the FIG 3 is not the correct scope shot for that test?  Possiby the wrong save was pulled from the scope's memory...?

I'll look at the other tests, just trying to get past this discrepancy...

PW

Picowatt - I am well aware of the level of the applied voltage from the signal.  It does not, however, correspond to the actual applied voltage which is somehow overridden by the offset function. 

We could apply this same 'offset' to our 555 tests but not at the same scale of proficiency.  And we only ever applied it to restrict the flow from the battery and to enhance the over all efficiencies.

And I can assure you that it is NOT related to the degradation of any part of our MOSFETS.

Regards,
Rosemary

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1744 on: April 06, 2012, 04:19:39 AM »
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Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1745 on: April 06, 2012, 04:27:31 AM »
@picowatt:

Here's Fig 6 from Test 3.

It looks to me like there is some current flowing during the non-oscillating portions. It's really too bad we don't have the common drain trace, which would give a lot more information. The CVR trace is set to 2 v/div and is showing about half a minor division up from zero during the non-osc phase, so that would be around 0.2 volts positive drop.

Recalling that the CVR is 0.25 ohms, that means around 800 mA flowing, I suppose.
Guys, again, TK is trying very hard to imply that there's 50 watts or thereby being delivered.  Unfortunately he's not factored in the impedance resulting from that applied frequency.  That changes the picture ENTIRELY.

Regards,
Rosemary

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1746 on: April 06, 2012, 04:28:48 AM »
The gate drive signal is picked up by a scope probe hooked up to the board. It is showing what the FG is putting out and what the circuit is seeing. No amount of wishful fantasy about how an offset control functions can change this fact.

Fuzzy.... you have uncovered another SMOKING GUN !! The scope shots were saved DAYS, even WEEKS before the Single mosfet photo was presented to us as the device CURRENTLY being tested at that time. And it's clear that the one in the picture has NOT YET had the Gang of Four added.

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1746 on: April 06, 2012, 04:28:48 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1747 on: April 06, 2012, 04:33:00 AM »
Guys, again, TK is trying very hard to imply that there's 50 watts or thereby being delivered.  Unfortunately he's not factored in the impedance resulting from that applied frequency.  That changes the picture ENTIRELY.

Regards,
Rosemary

Rosemary, the power dissipated in a resistance is given by P=I^2 R. In this case we have 800 mA flowing through 11.11 ohms at the load. By Ohm's Law, we then have P=(. 8) (. 8) (11.11) = a little over seven Watts, not 50.

And you know nothing of impedance, obviously.

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1748 on: April 06, 2012, 04:33:24 AM »
The gate drive signal is picked up by a scope probe hooked up to the board. It is showing what the FG is putting out and what the circuit is seeing. No amount of wishful fantasy about how an offset control functions can change this fact.

Fuzzy.... you have uncovered another SMOKING GUN !! The scope shots were saved DAYS, even WEEKS before the Single mosfet photo was presented to us as the device CURRENTLY being tested at that time. And it's clear that the one in the picture has NOT YET had the Gang of Four added.

TinselKoala your attempts at implying that our results are misrepresented are really somewhat pitiful.  The 'single mosfet' as you put it - photo - was the VERY FIRST PHOTOGRAPH OF THE VERY FIRST CIRCUIT AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF OUR SOJOURN INTO THESE NEW TESTS.  What a sad little effort to imply falsification of data.  Your efforts are getting transparently absurd.  You need to do better.

Rosie Pose

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1748 on: April 06, 2012, 04:33:24 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1749 on: April 06, 2012, 04:36:15 AM »
The dates of the photo and the scope shots do not support your argument. And we know already how many times you have argued strongly for a wrong position -- like the "50 watts" above -- , and later had to retract it in public. "Trust me on this".... and then you had to apologise to me AGAIN for being wrong and pig-headed about it.
I don't know what is the case here, I'm just going by Fuzzy's posts... but I certainly find him to be much more reliable than you.

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1750 on: April 06, 2012, 04:36:39 AM »
Rosemary, the power dissipated in a resistance is given by P=I^2 R. In this case we have 800 mA flowing through 11.11 ohms at the load. By Ohm's Law, we then have P=(. 8) (. 8) (11.11) = a little over seven Watts, not 50.

And you know nothing of impedance, obviously.

TK - I was referring the output from the battery.  Wattage delivered is most certainly closer to 7 watts.  And you know this perfectly well.  You're just hoping that our readers will overlook this.  And how you can argue that the impedance does not effect the resistance value of the shunt is beyond me.  Clearly I know considerably more than you do.

Rosie Posie

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1750 on: April 06, 2012, 04:36:39 AM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1751 on: April 06, 2012, 04:39:13 AM »
Rosemary,

Channel 3, trace D is indeed the voltage applied to the Q1 gate, correct?

This voltage, when positive, indicates to a fair degree, the actual ouput of the function generator, as the loading on the generator is minimal when its output is positive (Q2 is biased off and the gate of Q1 is a very high impedance once Ciss is charged).

Things change a bit when the FG goes negative, as the bias current for Q2 now causes a voltage drop across the function generator's internal 50 ohm resistor.  If we knew the open circuit voltage versus the closed circuit voltage of the function generator's output when its output is negative, we could calculate the bias current for Q2.  Without those figures, all replicators will have to approximate or guess at the bias current for Q2 based on IRFPG50 data sheets and trial and error of the negative going setting.

It is important at the least, that all the scope shots are correct and reflect the actual test described so that FG settings can be set as close as possible to your operating conditions.

PW

 

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1752 on: April 06, 2012, 04:41:50 AM »
The dates of the photo and the scope shots do not support your argument. And we know already how many times you have argued strongly for a wrong position -- like the "50 watts" above -- , and later had to retract it in public. "Trust me on this".... and then you had to apologise to me AGAIN for being wrong and pig-headed about it.
I don't know what is the case here, I'm just going by Fuzzy's posts... but I certainly find him to be much more reliable than you.

Guys let me make this absolutely clear.  Since I have learned so thoroughly how TK's mission is deny EVERYTHING he can, I have NEVER apologised to TK for anything at all.  Nor will I.  And I cannot dismantle the existing state of the apparatus if I wanted to.  I do not have the competence nor the eyesight.  That photograph was taken by me before it was modified to this Q-array circuit.  Why would I lie about that?

Rosemary

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1753 on: April 06, 2012, 04:50:12 AM »
Rosemary,

Channel 3, trace D is indeed the voltage applied to the Q1 gate, correct?

This voltage, when positive, indicates to a fair degree, the actual ouput of the function generator, as the loading on the generator is minimal when its output is positive (Q2 is biased off and the gate of Q1 is a very high impedance once Ciss is charged).

Things change a bit when the FG goes negative, as the bias current for Q2 now causes a voltage drop across the function generator's internal 50 ohm resistor.  If we knew the open circuit voltage versus the closed circuit voltage of the function generator's output when its output is negative, we could calculate the bias current for Q2.  Without those figures, all replicators will have to approximate or guess at the bias current for Q2 based on IRFPG50 data sheets and trial and error of the negative going setting.

It is important at the least, that all the scope shots are correct and reflect the actual test described so that FG settings can be set as close as possible to your operating conditions.

PW

Picowatt - are you saying that you're trying to replicate this?  In which case are you using a function generator?  Then if so, you'll be able to apply that 'offset' as required and you will see what it is that you'll get.  And the beauty of that little LeCroy is that there is no way it can do anything other than reflect the actual waveforms.  Well within it's competence.  And I certainly don't have the competence to alter any of the data that it shows.

If you read the text you'll see that our emphasis is absolutely to allow experts to evaluate the evidence.  And that evidence is easily replicated.  And I'm entirely satisfied we're not talking about vagaries in the function generator.  But again.  That's for you experts to determine.  And I certainly do not include TK in that list.

Regards again
Rosemary


Offline MileHigh

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Re: another small breakthrough on our NERD technology.
« Reply #1754 on: April 06, 2012, 04:59:21 AM »
Okay!  It's time for the really big shew!!!

Here is what I figured out:  The circuit started out with one MOSFET, Q1.  Then they added the big aluminum heatsink set with the Q2-Q5 MOSFETs.  When they did that they did the miswiring.

Look at the original diagram in the clip.  Q1's source connects to the shunt, all is seemingly normal.  But then when you add the wiring mistake when they added the Q2-Q5 setup you end up getting the Pegboard of Doom!

In negative oscillation mode you end up bypassing the current sensing resister!  Muhahahaha....

Muhahahahaaaaa! Muh-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaa....

 

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