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Author Topic: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells  (Read 676506 times)

Offline triffid

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #390 on: February 08, 2012, 01:43:26 AM »
PC, none of my first cells worked due to using the wrong salt sub(NU-SALT).This salt sub had no fumaric acid in it.Now Morton salt sub does!
Maybe elmers school glue would work if the right salt sub was used.But wait!I do recall IB2 saying that the elmers school glue will not work and hes been using the right salt sub all along.So lets go with that and not use it anymore.Maybe normal table salt with added FUMARIC ACID  might work?I would have to get some pure fumaric acid powder from somewhere to experiment with.I have not used carbon yet in my experiments So I cant say anything about it.triffid

Offline ibpointless2

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #391 on: February 08, 2012, 01:46:14 AM »
@triffid


Its funny you mention radioactivity. I got the idea to use salt sub because it contain potassium which was radioactive, I was trying to make a beta battery and not a crystal cell. 









@Phi


If the cell is made correct the crystal glue cell will hold it voltage above 1.300 volts when it dries out but it will have little to no amps. If the cell is not made correctly it will loose voltage over time as it dries out. I some cells that are over 8 months hold and still hold above 1.300 volts and no water is ever added to them. So yes a crystal glue cell will maintain its voltage even when dry.

Offline ibpointless2

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #392 on: February 08, 2012, 01:53:43 AM »
PC, none of my first cells worked due to using the wrong salt sub(NU-SALT).This salt sub had no fumaric acid in it.Now Morton salt sub does!
Maybe elmers school glue would work if the right salt sub was used.But wait!I do recall IB2 saying that the elmers school glue will not work and hes been using the right salt sub all along.So lets go with that and not use it anymore.Maybe normal table salt with added FUMARIC ACID  might work?I would have to get some pure fumaric acid powder from somewhere to experiment with.I have not used carbon yet in my experiments So I cant say anything about it.triffid


no no no, normal table salt is bad. very bad! If any salt substitute contains sodium in it then don't use it, sodium is bad.  Morton's salt sub works the best. I have made cells using table salt and they don't work, when they dry out they loose all their voltage.


The only thing special about Elmer's glue is that it contains water. The water allows the salt substitute and Epsom salt to dissolve into a new salt. The new salt is what you want. I tell people to use Elmer's glue because once it dries it act like a barrier to keep water out.  You must do exact as i say if you want to make a crystal glue cell. Use Elmer's glue-all, morton's salt substitute, and Epsom salt. Insert magnesium ribbon and copper wire into it and allow to dry over night.

Offline triffid

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #393 on: February 08, 2012, 01:54:54 AM »
IB2,Maybe you can still make that beta cell? Using  Fiesta-Ware saucers getting 50,000 counts per minute?


PC, I have a problem with the cells that need mixing so I'm going towards a no mixing approach.
My tin can lid/mg cells required no mixing.Just one layer at a time.




Have a great day  triffid

Offline PhiChaser

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #394 on: February 08, 2012, 05:21:12 AM »
Thanks for the tips guys!
I got home tonight and measured my moist salt substitute aluminum carbon and was at about a volt. Pretty cool, then I decided to try and add some voltage via 6v batteries. Wow!!! Amazing you can add voltage to potassium chloride and water. Unfortunately, this makes chlorine gas right? My little plastic cup smelled like a swimming pool but I measured a bit over 2.75v which dropped steadily as I measured on the 20v scale. It goes down slower on the 2000m scale (due to cells discharging into the smaller resistors I'm guessing?).
Since Plengo is working on copper-magnesium batteries, I think I will start with carbon (which doesn't break down I think?) and aluminum because it is cheap and easily machineable, obtainable, whatever...
Epsom salt and potassium chloride (and fumeric acid?) seem the like main ingredients to work around (so far right?) for the electrolyte. What about adding a little borax? Alum? I'm thinking if you add carbon then you 'ground out' when using carbon for one of the electrodes. A LOT of combinations to try but it shouldn't take forever to figure out what is going to work better for a 'one mix' cell. I will try to start with around two dozen (20ish) and see where it goes, space/money/time permitting of course...

My experiments to be evaluated in identical multiple small plastic containers;
Each dated container will contain the same measured length of carbon and aluminum 'imbedded' into each 'mixture' and made accessable to alligator clips for measurements.
A measured portion of the aforementioned ingredients in different combinations will all be moistened with the same amout of water and allowed to 'dry'. (Measurements taken at the creation of the cell of course!)
One mix, measure lightly, repeat as necessary...
During the drying period I will take regular measurements (hopefully heh heh) of these test mixtures and record these measurements in a log.
After a certain time period (as yet to be determined) I will evaluate my results and persue the most logical 'recipe' direction(s). I may also try some other ingredients (as yet to be determined).
I think that degradation of the aluminum and outgassing will be the most important factors to look at (after voltage/amperage that is).
You get the idea. Not sure how much I will actually accomplish, but making small cells and connecting them in series with capacitors to hold the charge WORKS!!! That means you pay for it ONCE and then it is FREE!!!
Is there a limit to how small you can make a cell? Realistically, how many crystals (of what size?) are really needed to get the maximum voltage from each cell? If only one 'crystal' structure is needed per 'volt' (so-to-speak) then you could make a 'bed' of tiny cells and grow them!!!! WOOT!!! How cool would that be?!?
SOOOOO many questions (possibilities)!!
I also really like the idea of impregnating cardboard with different 'salts' and layering them with what amounts to garbage (tin can lids) triffid. That is really taking the term recycle to the next level. REALLY a mind-blowing thing (to me anyways!).
I will try out some of my better 'recipe' combinations with the Elmer's Glue All (great idea there BTW!) as well as some other epoxys etc. eventually... Nice to see immediate results from adding water, even if they lose power as they dry out. It rains a bit where I live, and the relative humidity doesn't ever get below 10% (maybe) so these kinds of batteries would work pretty well (I'm guessing anyways...).
Fun stuff! Science is neat!!! Gonna read a bit about 'loading' up these things. Pretty amazing...
Will share results here as this 'project' progresses. ;)
PC
P.S. Any input regarding addition/improvement to my particular 'scientific method' is welcome, thanks!
P.P.S. Wow, I type way too much... Time to go do something productive heh heh...

Offline ibpointless2

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #395 on: February 08, 2012, 12:47:56 PM »
Thanks for the tips guys!
I got home tonight and measured my moist salt substitute aluminum carbon and was at about a volt. Pretty cool, then I decided to try and add some voltage via 6v batteries. Wow!!! Amazing you can add voltage to potassium chloride and water. Unfortunately, this makes chlorine gas right? My little plastic cup smelled like a swimming pool but I measured a bit over 2.75v which dropped steadily as I measured on the 20v scale. It goes down slower on the 2000m scale (due to cells discharging into the smaller resistors I'm guessing?).
Since Plengo is working on copper-magnesium batteries, I think I will start with carbon (which doesn't break down I think?) and aluminum because it is cheap and easily machineable, obtainable, whatever...
Epsom salt and potassium chloride (and fumeric acid?) seem the like main ingredients to work around (so far right?) for the electrolyte. What about adding a little borax? Alum? I'm thinking if you add carbon then you 'ground out' when using carbon for one of the electrodes. A LOT of combinations to try but it shouldn't take forever to figure out what is going to work better for a 'one mix' cell. I will try to start with around two dozen (20ish) and see where it goes, space/money/time permitting of course...

My experiments to be evaluated in identical multiple small plastic containers;
Each dated container will contain the same measured length of carbon and aluminum 'imbedded' into each 'mixture' and made accessable to alligator clips for measurements.
A measured portion of the aforementioned ingredients in different combinations will all be moistened with the same amout of water and allowed to 'dry'. (Measurements taken at the creation of the cell of course!)
One mix, measure lightly, repeat as necessary...
During the drying period I will take regular measurements (hopefully heh heh) of these test mixtures and record these measurements in a log.
After a certain time period (as yet to be determined) I will evaluate my results and persue the most logical 'recipe' direction(s). I may also try some other ingredients (as yet to be determined).
I think that degradation of the aluminum and outgassing will be the most important factors to look at (after voltage/amperage that is).
You get the idea. Not sure how much I will actually accomplish, but making small cells and connecting them in series with capacitors to hold the charge WORKS!!! That means you pay for it ONCE and then it is FREE!!!
Is there a limit to how small you can make a cell? Realistically, how many crystals (of what size?) are really needed to get the maximum voltage from each cell? If only one 'crystal' structure is needed per 'volt' (so-to-speak) then you could make a 'bed' of tiny cells and grow them!!!! WOOT!!! How cool would that be?!?
SOOOOO many questions (possibilities)!!
I also really like the idea of impregnating cardboard with different 'salts' and layering them with what amounts to garbage (tin can lids) triffid. That is really taking the term recycle to the next level. REALLY a mind-blowing thing (to me anyways!).
I will try out some of my better 'recipe' combinations with the Elmer's Glue All (great idea there BTW!) as well as some other epoxys etc. eventually... Nice to see immediate results from adding water, even if they lose power as they dry out. It rains a bit where I live, and the relative humidity doesn't ever get below 10% (maybe) so these kinds of batteries would work pretty well (I'm guessing anyways...).
Fun stuff! Science is neat!!! Gonna read a bit about 'loading' up these things. Pretty amazing...
Will share results here as this 'project' progresses. ;)
PC
P.S. Any input regarding addition/improvement to my particular 'scientific method' is welcome, thanks!
P.P.S. Wow, I type way too much... Time to go do something productive heh heh...




Phi there is many types of crystal cell that have been made. I made one called the crystal glue cell that uses Elmer's glue, salt substitute and Epsom salt. I also made a stove top cell which contains Borax, Alum, Salt substitute. And I also just created a pressure crystal cell that uses only salt substitute. Some people use ZnO. John Bedini uses sodium silicate and alum for some cell. a lot of types of cells exist. You can do a YouTube search and find just about any cell ever made. We have wet cell, dry cells and semi-dry cells.


Also yes you were making chlorine gas.

Offline PhiChaser

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #396 on: February 08, 2012, 03:37:01 PM »
Thanks IB,
I know there are lots of different cells out there which is why I would like to start in the carbon aluminum direction... We know Mg Cu works, and Plengo has shown that borax can treat the MG so it doesn't corrode like untreated Mg does, so that direction is already well underway. If aluminum works for a battery 'case' then empty soda cans may be able to serve the purpose (lots of ifs there, I know!).
Last night I tried just a glue all and salt sub and had around 0.9volts this morning with carbon and aluminum electrodes.
That was done in a plastic bottle cap but badly mixed so I'm sure a better job would have better results. I was just curious, not really after a test result other than a positive voltage (which I expected).
I'm sure my fiancee is just gonna love seeing all those little cups full of mixtures... :) I need to get one of those big analog reflection style meters to measure stuff with, my VOM is okay but I would like another measuring device (just to confirm readings if anything else). A scope would be nice too heh heh...
Science is fun! Play safe eh?
PC
P.S. The ring crystal battery was really cool IB, so were the little crystals on a stick. Keep 'em coming!

Offline NickZ

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #397 on: February 08, 2012, 03:43:29 PM »
  It appears that carbon is used in the cells that have shown the highest voltages.  I just wanted to comment that even my aluminum capacitor cans cells which are filled with wood carbon are showing signs of dropping of the original voltages levels.
So, for those using carbon, I would still suggest treating the aluminum, or the magnesium, as well as any copper used. As even totally dry cells are losing their output over time due to possible oxidation of the metals used, or by the contamination of the electrolyte, or both.
   

Offline triffid

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #398 on: February 08, 2012, 04:35:11 PM »
PC ,if your fiancee ever complains.tell her its not another woman and you are always home at nite.Nick Z,I did have to hook a fourth cell in series to keep the LED burning but I left it on all night.My tin can lid/mg cells produced more voltage when it was raining outside.Less now that its not not raining so greater humdity produced greater voltages.My cells went from .98 volts to 1.03 volts during the rain.And dropped back down  after the rain. I have cells sitting all over this house.I made new ones last night with no cardboard.I really do think some types of cardboard is not good for your cells.I used aluminum pie plates and copper plated zinc disks.I used boric acid,normal table salt with morton salt sub(ie,fumaric acid)and aspirin.I made all three cells with elmers glue-all,mortons salt sub,epson salts and more morton salt sub and added a different substance to each one.This morning 12 hours later each is producing .6 volts.Not bad for table salt that I was told would not work.The fumaric acid is the key here and no cardboard.I dumped about a quarter teaspoon of mortons iodized salt into the cell with the usual sprinkle of morton salt sub.Today that one cell is producing .6 volts 12 hours later.I get the small aluminum pie plates from mrs.Sullivan's 2 pecan pies.I get a box of two from the family dollar store for a dollar.triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #399 on: February 08, 2012, 04:37:41 PM »
IB2,If my normal table salt cell fails I will report it.All in the interest of science.I just had to see for myself.triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #400 on: February 08, 2012, 04:50:22 PM »
I have a good friend in oklahoma whose motto was" take junk and make it work"! When I was training to be a chemist in college we were taught to try to find the cheapest way to do something.I try to use aluminum foil,tin can lids(cant use all of them).The magnesium metal strips I had to buy.The mortons salt sub I had to go 30 miles out of my way to buy that.That made my cells work.So potassium chloride by itself will not work.It takes fumaric acid (most likely about 1 percent)If I had to guess and I am guessing.So maybe two percent fumaric acid will double the power???triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #401 on: February 08, 2012, 05:11:23 PM »
So I do not confuse anybody the fumaric acid is already inside the morton salt sub.So if you buy the morton salt sub.You are getting the fumaric acid too.triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #402 on: February 08, 2012, 11:54:41 PM »
My table salt cell is still producing .6 volts 24 hours later.So is the cell with asprin in it.The boric acid cell is producing  only .5 volts at this time.So it looks like the boric acid has a slight negative effect at this time.I have the same four cells hooked up in series powering the same LED since last night.These are the tin can lid /mg cells from the second panel I put together.I decided to put my third panel into a box for easy display.Since I think the jar I had picked out is not big enough.I went to radio shack today and bought an assortment of electrolytic capacitors(20) for about $5.00.triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #403 on: February 08, 2012, 11:57:38 PM »
I plan to see how charging up some small capacitors turn out.triffid

Offline PhiChaser

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #404 on: February 09, 2012, 03:41:20 PM »
Lots of things to test out it sounds like!
I got some epsom salt yesterday (pretty cheap stuff!) and gave it a little water to see what it does. So far not as much voltage as the Morton's salt substitute.
The potassium chloride fumaric acid (salt sub) and water seems like it gives a steady 0.9v, not much water left in it.
I was thinking about making a couple glue batteries only using elmers wood putty instead of glue all. It dries hard and can be shaped easily... Copper wire inside my carbon tubes conducted just as well as the carbon so I'm thinking the Al will be the challenge (but not as challenging as trying to prevent Mg from corroding!)...
I agree Nick, the aluminum needs to be treated somehow. If carbon and aluminum corrode less than Mg and Cu then it seems like a good direction to go. I really like the idea of impregnating paper or cardboard with electrolyte. Maybe it will help the crystal structure somehow? I think porosity might be important here, like paper towels work better than typing paper? Maybe try gauze?
Anyone have any fumaric acid laying around to try and see if you can get higher voltages from potassium chloride?!? Seems logical that it would do 'something' anyways...
The borax mixture I made a little of a few days ago is still VERY wet. Wow, that water softener is insane...
Another one of those 'pinch' or 'dash' type things maybe (like the fumaric acid).
I wonder if fruit acids will work?
Gotta dash, have fun, thanks for the comments!!
PC