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Author Topic: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells  (Read 571152 times)

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #165 on: December 01, 2011, 04:44:00 AM »
 IB since I can't reply to your comment on the other forum I'll say it here.


An analogue meter is passive. Besides low coil resistance the meter is sensitive. I'm going analogue again also. You can see the flow of current better.

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #165 on: December 01, 2011, 04:44:00 AM »

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #166 on: December 02, 2011, 05:03:38 PM »



 Hey what if we used crushed up graphite and carbon? You know a blend of the two... We could use a pure graphite center electrode again with the aluminum or magnesium can.

Offline NickZ

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #167 on: December 02, 2011, 07:25:54 PM »
  The pulverized carbon can be combined with many things, like I do by adding layers of quartz along with it. Graphite powder combined with carbon may work better than just the carbon. It's worth trying. But the main thing is finding the best carbon to use, or no matter what you add to it, it will still be a weak cell.
   To answer your question about the AC readings on the cells: My last small carbon/aluminum cells output 94mV on DC, and 1.250 or so on the AC setting on my meter.  So, the AC setting shows a higher output than the DC output, sometimes almost twice as much. But, the leds will still only light to the same intensity regardless of what the meter reads.

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #167 on: December 02, 2011, 07:25:54 PM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #168 on: December 02, 2011, 07:53:55 PM »
  The pulverized carbon can be combined with many things, like I do by adding layers of quartz along with it. Graphite powder combined with carbon may work better than just the carbon. It's worth trying. But the main thing is finding the best carbon to use, or no matter what you add to it, it will still be a weak cell.
   To answer your question about the AC readings on the cells: My last small carbon/aluminum cells output 94mV on DC, and 1.250 or so on the AC setting on my meter.  So, the AC setting shows a higher output than the DC output, sometimes almost twice as much. But, the leds will still only light to the same intensity regardless of what the meter reads.


 The carbon cell I have made is very low level voltage .45 now but it seems that the pure carbon method is not gonna cut it. When I Look at the dc side it is.45 volts and the ac side say .4 so this doesn't make sense. But when I measure a crystal battery it reads like normal 1.26 volts dc and 1.9 ac??? It doesn't make sense...

 Also about different mixes. Adding any electrolyte to the carbon seems to make it eat the aluminum even though it is dry. I mixed carbon and potassium and it ate the aluminum.. Even without water. My alum and carbon got knocked over so I don't know the results of that. I also put a thick layer of silica beads over the carbon to dry it out further. This worked well but I think it is still wet a bit.
 The can still looks good so we will have to wait till I dissect the carbon out and check it's formations...

 *edit found the other mix and they both ate aluminum foil when mixed with carbon. Maybe we should mix in the borax into the carbon with potassium or alum..
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 12:40:56 AM by jbignes5 »

Offline b_rads

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #169 on: December 02, 2011, 10:52:52 PM »
Quote from: NickZ
B-rads- I believe that the correct direction or flow of current in our cells is opposite to the pipeline polarity. And is like the Wikipedia explanation that I linked to before, under their heading "Other anodes and cathodes" that have polarity like diodes, semiconductors, electrolytic capacitors, and such as our cells. Electrode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 @Nick
Sorry to respond to your questions here, but I simply am not comfortable discussing this stuff at ef. The reference cited is referring to primary galvanic cells. I agree that if it can ever be indisputably proven that Ib’s cells are not galvanic then I think your reference to anode and cathode is correct. If it is proven that they are galvanic then I believe the cited information would be correct. In galvanic, a sacrificial electrode is referred to as the anode. It takes much more knowledge than I have to prove Ib’s cells as galvanic or not, but that does not concern me as this has proven to be a very worthy cell regardless what it is.
 
Quote from: NickZ
Brad, what was not mentioned in your information is if the electrode oxidation can be also be avoided or at least controlled by a lack of Oxygen available, like in a hermetically sealed cell. Or not?
   This is a question I have pondered for a long time Nick. Many of the chemicals we have been using, not only in Ib’s cells, but others as well contain oxygen and hydrogen. Epsom Salt, Alum, Elmer’s Glue, and other chemicals as well contain oxygen, hydrogen, or both. The question is, does the chemical makeup of these materials when mixed or exposed to metals change and allow oxidation even while in a sealed environment or not. I would like to think that as long as the cell is not overstressed that the crystal structure does not break down allowing oxidation to occur at the electrodes. But once again, I think these cells have more than passed the smell test and deserve a place of honor.
 
Thanks,
Brad S

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #169 on: December 02, 2011, 10:52:52 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #170 on: December 02, 2011, 11:17:05 PM »
My last small carbon/aluminum cells output 94mV on DC, and 1.250 or so on the AC setting on my meter.  So, the AC setting shows a higher output than the DC output, sometimes almost twice as much. But, the leds will still only light to the same intensity regardless of what the meter reads.

Please check your meter.
It is probably broken on the DC settings...
It should at least show 0.5 to 0.7 Volts on the DC side !

Regards, Stefan.

Offline NickZ

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #171 on: December 03, 2011, 01:09:17 AM »
    Stefan:
   Thanks,  my mistake,  I should have said 0.94 volts DC,  and 1.250 or so, AC. 
    It's me that is a little broken...  my meter is fine.
    Glad someone is on their toes...
                                                            Nick

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #171 on: December 03, 2011, 01:09:17 AM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #172 on: December 03, 2011, 01:16:28 AM »
 I just tried the epsom salt potassium and borax with carbon and the cell initially hits 1.29 after creation but it still isn't cool all the way. That carbon seems to have increased the voltage output. I haven't tried the current yet. I'm gonna let it dry fully before testing it this time.

 In cooking it I had to use a tad bit of water to get the crystals to start melting once that is done you don't need anymore. When dealing with this stuff it would be better to melt it in a double boiler and mix it thoroughly. I might get a mixer with the blades on it like the blades on an end to an mixing shaft that is hand held. This might mix it more thoroughly then we could just pour it into a mold/case(Aluminum or Magnesium). I'm going aluminum because it is more available in every area. This way you can make an insert on the end of the center graphite lead to put put a plastic plug and insert that into a hold on the bottom of the can/case. But that is a bit off in the future. I'm still waiting for it to dry so... We will see...

 After 10 minutes cooling it is at 1.27 volts dc...

 The mix has a tar like look to it. A tad bit opaque almost candy like consistency.

 After 1 hour the voltage is 1.26 volts dc.

Offline NickZ

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #173 on: December 03, 2011, 02:07:06 AM »
   B_rads:
   Thanks for your reply.  Yes,  it would be very good to be able to prove that there is such a thing a non-galvanic cell.
   
   At least we need to give Ib some credit in doing his best to show what he has already shown in all his videos about his cells not catering to galvanics. He has put them through the ringer.
   It looks like the galvanic cells stop producing output when they dry out. So, I would ASSUME that if there is no water or liquids in the cell, or outside air available, and if a cell is still able to produce an output without physical deterioration present, then that would at least be a starting point towards a non-galvanic long lasting cell.  The trick is getting some higher voltages and current levels out of that type of cell.  That is what I have been trying to do. I may only get a few mAs and a volt or so from each dry cells,  using just carbon and aluminum, but they are likely to last a long time, and have costed me,  zilch.
  Now some of the guys are making cells with upwards of 300 to 400 mA, but ... will those cells last? 
                                            NickZ
   

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #173 on: December 03, 2011, 02:07:06 AM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #174 on: December 03, 2011, 02:32:00 AM »
   B_rads:
   Thanks for your reply.  Yes,  it would be very good to be able to prove that there is such a thing a non-galvanic cell.
   
   At least we need to give Ib some credit in doing his best to show what he has already shown in all his videos about his cells not catering to galvanics. He has put them through the ringer.
   It looks like the galvanic cells stop producing output when they dry out. So, I would ASSUME that if there is no water or liquids in the cell, or outside air available, and if a cell is still able to produce an output without physical deterioration present, then that would at least be a starting point towards a non-galvanic long lasting cell.  The trick is getting some higher voltages and current levels out of that type of cell.  That is what I have been trying to do. I may only get a few mAs and a volt or so from each dry cells,  using just carbon and aluminum, but they are likely to last a long time, and have costed me,  zilch.
  Now some of the guys are making cells with upwards of 300 to 400 mA, but ... will those cells last? 
                                            NickZ
 


 I don't think we should go over the metal absolute value spread in voltage. If the separation is 1.2 volts then anything over that has to be galvanic and or electrolysis. This is what I have been noticing. Making a battery like this will depend on the ability of the cell to maintain it's voltage separation. If it can't it is weak at current and will lower the voltage faster but if it does maintain that separation then it can push harder and the voltage will be sustained at the value of the metals separation. What causes this separation I'm not understanding fully. It has to do with the chemical geometry and content as to weather galvanics are involved. The IB cells have a self healing quality to them because the fix a flat is included in the chemistry. The borax fixes the exposed aluminum and lays a oxidized layer to protect it fully in that spot. You can think of this process like when we break a leg. The fix is actually stronger then the original material. Now it's just a question of activating the break in a controlled rate and let it heal with a stronger connection. Eventually the cell get really strong but I think this is gonna take some exact calculating for the mixes to work as planned and yes I think there needs to be a protective layer to separate it from the environment from a water and oxygen barrage after it has completed the growing cycle.


Offline NickZ

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #175 on: December 03, 2011, 04:57:36 AM »
  Guys:
  I received this from Sea Monkey at Heredical Builders, today, and I thought that you all would not mind me bringing it over to here:

Sea Monkey
    The ongoing discussion at EF has finally
gotten to the somewhat confusing issue
of what "Anode" and "Cathode" means with
respect to semiconductor devices and
electrolytic cells.

The WikiPedia article is correct.

Whether a given terminal on a device
functions as either an anode or a cathode
is dependent upon the direction of current
flow.

For conventional current flow the current
will always enter the anode of the device
and exit the cathode.

For electron current flow the current will
always enter the cathode of the device
and will exit the anode.

This holds true whether the device is a
rectifier or a voltaic cell.


For electron current flow:

When a secondary cell is being discharged
as a source of current the current exits
the cell at its negative terminal (anode)
and enters its positive terminal (cathode.)

When a secondary cell is being charged
the charging current enters the cell at its
negative terminal (cathode) and exits its
positive terminal (anode.)

The "anodes" and "cathodes" change positions
for discharge and charge as the current flow
changes directions. The DC polarity of the
cell remains unchanged.
__________________
Don't forget to do good deeds as you accumulate wealth.

    (Me now):
   I however have mentioned that I don't think that these cells are functioning as other batteries, or pipelines, or anything else. But, are more in line with and similar to electrolytic capacitors, diodes, semiconductors, etz... working like a one way check valve. 

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #175 on: December 03, 2011, 04:57:36 AM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #176 on: December 03, 2011, 03:17:44 PM »
 You would be correct Nick as much as the electron volts are concerned. Anything else being concerned only see these as a diode. This is because they are mostly dry or should be. even though the active element is outside and not in the center is only because the center electrode is only a channel and not the negative. This makes a potential dilemma. The outside is active and the inside is shielded but is active as a channel of the focused energy of the surrounding metal. The diode is biased by a steady direction of flow of the focus of energy. Much like an electrolytic capacitor. When we started using the can as a terminal we started to get weird results. This is because of static induction rules where the center is neutral and the inside of the metal facing inwards is one polarity and the outer skin is polar opposite or negative outside of the can. These are static rules and must be included in this process. The solid of the cell is merely a static connection and improves the polarity alignment. This comes from orienting the crystals via surface attraction rules. Since most of the crystals are pyramidal in shape this creates more surface area in one direction only well two in the double ended pyramids, those are mostly balanced connectors. This is where I suspect the diode like action is. It is a combination of aligned surface area. In one direction it flows into concentrated channels of surface area and in the other direction it gets dispersed 45 degrees away on one side totaling 90 degrees deflection per pair of faces. this also splits up the polarities negative and positive into two channels which are also 90 degrees apart with a 4 sided pyramid. 3 sided are much harder to explain but I believe 3 sided pyramids are the strongest and what forms the network of energy streams< like water streams.


 Hmmm...

 Salt seems to be this 3 sided version of the network. But it is how we defend our electrode that merits attention. Protect the electrode and the metal can survive unscathed. The borax does this. It facilitates repair of the layer of oxidized metal. Yes this eats a portion of the surface but that is how the pyramidal shape is created.

 I had the chance to play with a tin can that had Pineapple in it in little bits. I ate most of the pineapple and left a good amount of the juice in the can to react to the oxygen and about 10 pieces of the pineapple bits in the juice. After a few days I read about IB's idea about tin and it does have a rather cool looking metal structure. Well the can got oxidized on that lower portion. So The can didn't oxidize until the oxygen could get to the solution that was left. The funny thing is the oxidized walls are grey in color after a rinse and dry. GREY.

 This leads me to believe oxygen is the culprit in these cells. Although the oxygen is needed to form the protective layer that is still highly conductive but not reactive to waters solvent properties. So sealing these cells is the way to go after the right ingredients are attained it should be sealed off from oxygen.

 Two updates. One is about the carbon cell. It's at .55 volts and getting drier.
 The new cell made with IB's crystals and carbon pulled away from the aluminum and cracked so I need to put it in a container and after two days of drying It was still wet underneath the crystal mix. So drying times might go into weeks here before any use can be done *galvanics/electrolysis*.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 05:00:12 PM by jbignes5 »

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #177 on: December 03, 2011, 09:46:58 PM »

 I had a chance to make what I thought was a proper cell. I filled my glass jar with the new mix of carbon salts and borax. The thing puffed up like a muffin and I jammed the aluminum coil into the jar with the graphite lead as well. By examining the flat version I am seeing growth after it dries or in the drying process. The crystals forming are very clear and thin with a pointy end. The structure seems to grow after it starts evaporating water. It is literally building as I watch it. The mix still looks wet and I think that is because of the carbon. It swells from the water and where the water was it grows crystals in that evaporation process. I think the carbon is being ripped apart and the crystal is what is being build via flow and evaporation of the water from the epsom salts. I tried to take pictures but my camera sucks at close ups. The Carbon makes an excellent back ground for the crystalline structure to be enhanced visually. So it looks like the polarization of crystals are due to the surfaces. Each pointing away from that surface. One structure is conductive and the other is not. This is the diode like effect I am seeing in the flat version. The crystals eventually grow into each other and bond. With one being conductive and the other not you can see why this would be a diode like action. With the one being conductive it's tips are passing charges from the surface of each matter we use as the electrode. Aluminum\Graphite or MAgnesium/Graphite or Copper.


 I wonder is they are diamond like conductors seeing that it is using carbon ???

 In the IB flat version it would be easier to have the plates on either side then the crystal can grow more straight. I'll have to do some more work in that area Graphite written on paper should be sufficient for one electrode and aluminum foil for the other.

I also think baking hastens the crystal formation. Of course  slower more even heat would be best for crystal growth and this is what I have been seeing with my flat cell that got ruined. Round geometry would be best for this but it has to be in a aluminum can/graphite electrode or magnesium can and should use copper for the electrode.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 01:54:56 AM by jbignes5 »

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #178 on: December 04, 2011, 02:50:56 PM »
After Letting it run all night, yeah I know. I couldn't wait any longer, Sue me. Well after letting it run for a bit it seems to be stable at .37v stable while in circuit. I am thinking I got too much carbon in it. I'm gonna dissect this one and learn as much as I can about it. It seems to be not as much in the mix as I thought. My molten procedure is very simple. Double boil the mix and the steam helps melt it into a slurry. once in slurry add the carbon. My first attempt was about 1 cubic centimeter of carbon finely ground. The mix was slightly transparent but had a blackish oily hue to it. I should probably mix the carbon with water first so that it will not fluff up like my first attempt did. Getting the mix to the right consistency is key and that is temperature based. I put salt in the water of the bath so that it's boiling temperature was raised. That helps immensely. Since I have a jar of thick glass I use that to cook the mix. I also let it cool in the same jar and insert the electrodes into it.


 I have an anodized aluminum wire coil about 2mm thick and the center electrode is graphite held there with a closepin.


 So time for dissection.

 He IB whats the mix ratio of your cells.. I need to start making this via formula...

 The dissection of the cell confirmed my suspicion that I added to much carbon. It should not rise at all when cooking.

 Ok the process has been investigated and this is my conclusion. The formation of the crystal layers should be surface based. Each surface or electrode should be the same size and even the same mass weight. My process was not 100% but I did get a very good cell with more power then the round version.

 This is due to the the equal surface area of the electrodes 3"*3" square and not fully covered. The process is tricky to perfect because the layer of crystalline matterial should be very even and uniform for optimal crystal growth. Instantly after I added the new type of cell my led went up in power.  When compared with the old style jar cell. but there is an issue with the graphite paper not adhering to the crystal material. It's too slippery so slight compression is needed to keep the layers together. I think making a form out of old Popsicle stick should do for a frame then pour the crystalline matrix into the form and quickly put a graphite coated paper or some other graphite layer on top.

 Many many layers can be built in this way and increase it's voltage staying capabilities. Thickness of the crystalline matrix should be more then 1mm thick. Possibly 2-4 mm, this will be determined based on more experiments. My carbon battery is the weak link and is holding this setup back when the major component is carbon.

 The mix I used for this battery was 1 teaspoon of borax, 2 teaspoons of espom and a teaspoon of salt substitute(potassium) and 1 cubic centimeter of carbon finely ground. After an hours of time the fine crystals are appearing. They glint in the structure when illuminated with an led light. The first carbon crystal cell looks to have a good amount of these needle like crystals. They are very long and very thin. The second type of crystal has a 4 sided pyramid on it's tip with a fatter not as long trunk. It's weird but I see two directions of these crystals. Some tend to flourish in bush like outcroppings and tend to be needle like and others group around the other surface are fat with pyramidal tips. I so want to get a pc microscope.

 Time to make more of these batteries and see what their limit is.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 06:02:24 PM by jbignes5 »

Offline ibpointless2

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #179 on: December 04, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »
@Jbignes5


I don't have exact ratio's to my cells. a little bit of this and a little bit of that is what I do.


Are you tempting to build one of my cells? which one?

 

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