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Author Topic: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells  (Read 548778 times)

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #120 on: November 22, 2011, 05:35:32 PM »
 Ok, I wish I had a better camera for the results of one of my Modified IB cells. My version was of a folded heavy aluminum foil in the shape of a open ended tray. So I could cook the stuff in a pan and then add the graphite lead into the mix after it had cooked for a bit. The two electrodes were the Aluminum tray and graphite lead. They started out well until there was little water in the cell to do the galvanic reaction.


 I just dissected the cell to find a very strange occurring galvanic reaction had happened there. Instead of the usual black galvanic response the aluminum seemed to be eaten and consumed but not burnt. Etched might be a better word for it. The spots that were touching the aluminum looks to have been incorporated into the crystal structure that was being made at the closest connection between the aluminum and the crystal structure mix. The crystals that are forming seem to have this aluminum inside of their structure and have a grey tint to them.


 I'll try to get a photo of this but my camera hates close ups.

 *edit* Upon further looking at this process we just might want a galvanic reaction here. It seems to be doping the crystalline structure and a much different crystal is forming both physically and electrically. I am thinking in the beginning we want a galvanic reaction to disassemble the aluminum and incorporate it into it's structure. Maybe aluminum powder mixed into the mix might facilitate better growth into the crystals that form.

 Is the salt substitute responsible for the galvanic response or the alum ??? I am thinking of making a cell that has many many layers of aluminum + the salt substitute and alum with some borax thrown in for structure building. If I could get a more even response from the galvanic portion I might get a better mix of the aluminum into the crystals that are forming.

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #120 on: November 22, 2011, 05:35:32 PM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #121 on: November 22, 2011, 06:06:16 PM »
Hi
jbignes5.

what is exactly your salt mix ?

Maybe before you use this aluminium foil,
just treat it in an electrolysis bath as the plus pole
( so it gets oxygen) and builds up a good protective oxide layer.
Then use only very few salt mix, so the distance between
graphite rod surface and the alufoil is under 1 mm.

Also you could try to dope the salt mix with additional graphite or lampblack powder
to make it more conductive.

A battery is like an electron pump, so the electrons have to move also from one electrode to the other internally
inside the battery, so you need also electrical  conduction for this !

Regards, Stefan.

Offline ibpointless2

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #122 on: November 22, 2011, 06:18:01 PM »
@hartiberlin


Have you been able to make the crystal glue cell? Its simple to make. All you need is Elmer's glue, salt substitute, and Epsom salt. Allow the mix to fully dry then either spray paint it or use liquid plastic that B-rads shows in his video so that the cell can be protected. Here's a video on how to make a cell, Its best to use copper and magnesium for the electrodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ngFfU1hHyM


This cell can recharge itself back to original voltage, this is very unique effect to see. It is very important that the cell fully dries out and once fully dry it must be encased so it can be protected from the environment.

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #122 on: November 22, 2011, 06:18:01 PM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #123 on: November 22, 2011, 06:46:17 PM »
Hi
jbignes5.

what is exactly your salt mix ?

Maybe before you use this aluminium foil,
just treat it in an electrolysis bath as the plus pole
( so it gets oxygen) and builds up a good protective oxide layer.
Then use only very few salt mix, so the distance between
graphite rod surface and the alufoil is under 1 mm.

Also you could try to dope the salt mix with additional graphite or lampblack powder
to make it more conductive.

A battery is like an electron pump, so the electrons have to move also from one electrode to the other internally
inside the battery, so you need also electrical  conduction for this !

Regards, Stefan.


 Borax, salt substitute, alum and a tad bit of epsom salts for the water it contains already. as the borax seems to protect the aluminum to a degree we need the aluminum to slowly decompose and join with the crystals. That is the conductive material besides salts it seems. My new test is with the same mix used in a borax protected inner coil of the aluminum. The outside is dribbled with the mix of what I specified above. I want a galvanic action going here to dope the crystal growth around the center graphite electrode with aluminum. This I assume forms little diode like crystal formations that form all the way through the mix. Like I said if I can get a hold of some aluminum power It might work easier.
 We will see. Test started today so it will take a week to get it to decompose the aluminum and form a crystal from that.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #124 on: November 22, 2011, 06:55:29 PM »
P.S: The optimal cell will be a cell with just graphite ( or lampblack-paper) electrodes and
a salt mix between it.
Then we have no metals that will be abale to corrode.

I made a quick test for this a few months ago and got 0.35 Volts from
a cell having graphite paper as one electrode, table-saltwater as the elctrolyte
and the other electrode was composed out of a paste of lampblack  and
TiO2 put on a glas plate and heated and dried up via a candle .

So there was no metal in it that could corrode.
I will need to test this again, cause I did it in a hurry and did not
measure the short circuit current at this time and then the glas plate went broke,
so I have to redo this test soon.

This must be researched also with the Epsom Salt and Borax mixes, that
the others have been trying now here.

Also the Youtube user diveflyfish
has shown here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgMraWxlSoY
and here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1E45bMV9KY

It is just 2 graphite plates with a mix of
MOLTEN Zn0, EPSOMS, SILCA GEL, doped with GALINA, IRON PYRITE
between it.

So you see, it is possible to substitute the metals completely
with graphite ( lampblack) as the electrodes and thus
there will be no corrosion at all !

If we stack enough cells in series then we will also get enough power to
power a few LEDs already.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #124 on: November 22, 2011, 06:55:29 PM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #125 on: November 22, 2011, 07:41:53 PM »
 Yeah but it seems that the crystal that was formi8ng in my small IB cell was different. The thing is the aluminum looked like it was being digested into the crystals. This might have something to do with my cells being a tad bit stronger. Like a controlled burn of the aluminum. What was left over got incorporated into the crystal mix.


 The thing is this oxide once forms protects the aluminum. If we get aluminum that is broken up into finer particles these diode like membrane might add up exponentially... Like a billion little diodes all interconnected and all pointing in..

 *Update* From what I can see the aluminum is being decomposed by the electrolysis of the water. I have put a 4.5 volt tripple stack of aa batteries on the whole system and it has been boosting the electrolysis. In between those boosts the water slowly keeps doing the electrolysis but at a lower voltage. The running volts for the led head and cells are 2.57v(no real electrolysis) normal and in boost mode 2.61v (major electrolysis,rolling boil of the water).

 The water and crystals are now grey in color and seem to settle after the boost mode back to the 2.56-2.57 range. I'm thinking it takes quite some time to decompose all of the aluminum but I will keep you posted to the stats of this experiment as best I can.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:09:30 AM by jbignes5 »

Offline b_rads

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #126 on: November 23, 2011, 06:25:08 PM »
NickZ,
Just a moment to thank you for your insistence on encapsulating the cells we have been making.  Just a little over 4 months ago I took your suggestion and applied it to some of my cells.  Last night, I inspected several of those cells using a magnifying glass which helps me understand more fully what is happening.  I will report my observations and everyone is free to interpret anyway they wish.
 
Alum, heat treated copper, and magnesium:
Under the magnifying glass it is quite obvious that the Alum is being consumed.  There are some very large voids in the Alum fill.  The copper and magnesium appear to be in very good condition.
 
Glue cell, non treated copper, magnesium, Epsom Salt, Salt Substitute, and Elmer’s White Glue:
Very minimal indication that the glue mix is being consumed.  If the Alum cell was a 10 (worst) than the glue cell would be a 1.  The untreated copper is staining the mix green and the magnesium looks very good.  I do have some indication of the magnesium breaking down above the plastic but not embedded in the plastic. 
 
Glue cell, carbon, magnesium, Epsom Salt, Salt Substitute, and Elmer’s White Glue:
This is the best performing cell of the group.  1.48Volts and 1.6ma unloaded.  The carbon and magnesium are completely submerged in the plastic with SS screws protruding through the plastic for connectors.  I can not detect any deterioration in this cell.
 
Stove Top Cell:
These cells are not as old as the Glue Cells and I will reserve observations on these until they have the same maturity as the cell I have already reported on.
 
Further Experiments:
I plan to remake the glue cell using heat treated copper.  I will be going after the Red Oxide as I wish to avoid using heat in the cell.  For a better understanding of this statement you can look at:
http://thesciencecupboard.com/page3.htm
 
Brad S

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #126 on: November 23, 2011, 06:25:08 PM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #127 on: November 23, 2011, 07:21:32 PM »


 Ok I have hit the next stage of the build. I have gotten all the aluminum the crystals can stand around the graphite lead. I dissected the unit and inspected the aluminum around the electrode. There was a good amount of the aluminum gone. The blackening of the aluminum is from the shinny side of the aluminum. Whatever that is it turns black. I'm thinking I have created a very efficient nano particle aluminum. The mix I got out of the last unit blended very well when I subjected it to 10 second microwave burst (kitchen appliance). The mix never really got too hot but it did warm the plastic jar I am using. I think it is 4 oz jar size. The amount I got back out of the porcess was way less then I started with but it is now colored grey. I think it took 3 shots of 10 seconds in the microwave range before the mix started to become pliable and very thick like honey. Thats where I stopped and put the new Graphite lead in the center with an aluminum ring around that. The negative is the aluminum. And the Graphite is the collector or higher voltage electrode that gets its potential rise from the focusing inwards. I think this has lowered the voltage but increased the pressure it can provide. At least in the beginning of it's cooling phase so far. My running voltage is 2.5v steady now. As for the current I wouldn't know till I get a analogue one. Thats next on the list as well.


 The new unit is still growing so we will see..
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 10:43:29 PM by jbignes5 »

Offline NickZ

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #128 on: November 23, 2011, 11:09:12 PM »
   b_rads:
   I think that carbon is a better conductor and may be the best anode material, not prone to the oxidation factor, and so more apt for salt electrolytes. So, long as even Air get into the cell there it is going to be some galvanics, as it's the oxygen that is behind the break down of the metals.

The small pencil leads are very brittle but they work great for this, the bigger pencil leads are probably better as they wont break as easily.  As air or water is going to ruin most of these cells in time,  carbon will go the whole way, hopefully. Whatever semiconductor treatment we apply on the Mg or Al, it has to be able to conduct ions, but not regular electricity.  These cell are not just big diodes, or capacitor, or batteries, but are similar to all of them.  Field energies, instead of galvanics, its a constant influx of energy, there is no real charging or discharging as some still assume. Nor are regular galvanic batteries able to provide a constant output, without discharging themselves, or even increase under load, as some of these cells CAN DO. 
  IB2 had mentioned that so long as there is no oxygen getting into the cell there was no visible oxidation.   I agree, as that is what it looks like, at least at low current levels.  But at 1 to 2 ams, who knows...

  Brad, thanks for the tip on the casing resin, and waiting for the cell to dry out first.  The hydrogen gas bubbles can break right through the resin and corrode the outside of the electrodes.  Conductive or marine dielectric grease for the outside terminals can also help, if these cells are not hermetic, they won't last for long...  I would play around with more carbon/Mg cells.  Except that it is hard to find the magnesium here, so I have to use aluminum, the bigger capacitor cans work good for that.
  I have to add another coat of glue on my hot dog cell, as it actually blows geyser holes blows right through the glue, and begins to dissolve the aluminum wire into a grey mush. Still might last for months, but not what I want to see. It needs to be bone dry then quick sealed, or its a dripping mess of salty water.
 I think that to make a cell using a thick Mg can as the cathode with carbon cores as the anodes, and thin layers of totally dry crystal salts electroylte, all sealed up hermetically, (with no watering hole), can be one of the best ways to go.
  By the time we figure out how to make a real permanent output cell, China will be selling them at 2 for a buck, with 3 year guarantee.  Maybe that's what I'm waiting for...  except that they'll really cost $39.95, each. 
                               

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #128 on: November 23, 2011, 11:09:12 PM »
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Offline ibpointless2

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #129 on: November 23, 2011, 11:21:15 PM »

One big reason why I say to spray paint or encase the crystal glue cells is that I’ve seen increase in power. The increase is small, one cell went from 1.470 volts @ 26 micro-amps to 1.474 volts 30micro-amps. It was small increase but any increase is important when you consider that encasing the cell puts it even further away from the moisture in the air. So not only does encasing the cell keep it alive longer but it seems to increase power too. [/font]

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2011, 02:33:10 PM »
 @nick and IB.


 Keep going with your back and forth on Energetic forum. You are figuring it out little by little. I too agree that these crystal batteries are very akin to the captret. Work this out and you will know what to do from then on. I can't join you on that forum but it is very interesting and I'm following the conversation pretty good.


 This is what me and IB did. We discussed the reasons for the captret effect. When we started using the can as the neg connector we found we could slipstream some power off. I'm thinking it is because of the diode like effect in it. It is a polarized device. The neg plate should be less polarized or even neutral of a conductor. It's ambient state is and average of the environment it is in electrically. The positive is the driving force in the polarized electrolytic cap. The captret allowed an led or sometimes banks of leds to run for very little current. The batteries I used were old dead 7 AH batteries with a standing voltage of 9.7 volts. My test of the slipstream effect was to use the connections exactly the way they were marked on the cap. the neg was attached to the can and only the positive was connected to the positive of the cap. The load then went to the positive and negative respectfully on the capacitor. Electrolysis happened on the end of the can and grew it's own oxide layer on the bottom of the can. I have since found out that when this electrolysis happens it ruins the effect. I thought having nano particles of aluminum would help the conduction paths and it doesn't it ruins the effect of the crystal cell!


 This is why the captrets failed after a few powerful tries. It is why they burst. It eats it's way to the cuts in the end of the can and it blows prematurely. All the while that the nano particles of aluminum are starting to short out the effect we are looking for. The electrolysis is the reason for the failure of the captret to maintain it's power splitting ability or induced flow cycle. If we prevent electrolysis and galvanic response then we have the perfect source.
 Of course in my opinion we should just use the oxidation layer. Yes it eats a portion of the metal but when the crust is formed it seems stronger. Please understand what this device is about. It's crystallized, it has a pyramidal shape with the biggest area of it's mass is attached to the metal. This diverts all incoming flows 90 degrees in a dissipating radius. Of course there will be movement across that face. Interference patterns would be extremely easy to simulate in today's computers. Growth of these layers needs to be honed and practiced. We are bumbling through this process like a bull in a china store. It doesn't block current it diverts it away from the metal and it induces a flow in the process...
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 03:29:06 PM by jbignes5 »

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2011, 02:33:10 PM »
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Offline NickZ

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #131 on: November 26, 2011, 04:18:51 AM »
   Guys:
   Ok, I finally bought another volt meter but could not find the right analog one, lilke the one I had, so I bought a small digital one. At least I'll be able to report some voltages again.
   One good thing that I could read from my new meter was that my big capacitor cell using beach sand and cement that I made almost a year ago, is still at  over a volt, and 22 mA, it holds steady at 10 mA after 10 seconds or so.  And compared to the hot dog cell which is giving 0.506 volts, but, 58mA, and holds at 33mA after 10 seconds. Two totally different cells, together they give 1.5 volts. but only the lowest cells mA reading at 10mA.  One cell is good at current output, and the other is ok at voltage.
It's very important to match the cells, otherwise you end up with the lowest cells current levels, just like if it were a pinched hose.
                                       NickZ

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #132 on: November 26, 2011, 02:10:32 PM »
   Guys:
   Ok, I finally bought another volt meter but could not find the right analog one, lilke the one I had, so I bought a small digital one. At least I'll be able to report some voltages again.
   One good thing that I could read from my new meter was that my big capacitor cell using beach sand and cement that I made almost a year ago, is still at  over a volt, and 22 mA, it holds steady at 10 mA after 10 seconds or so.  And compared to the hot dog cell which is giving 0.506 volts, but, 58mA, and holds at 33mA after 10 seconds. Two totally different cells, together they give 1.5 volts. but only the lowest cells mA reading at 10mA.  One cell is good at current output, and the other is ok at voltage.
It's very important to match the cells, otherwise you end up with the lowest cells current levels, just like if it were a pinched hose.
                                       NickZ


 Yes and I'm starting to believe the pinch is the cause for electrolysis if water is present and galvanics as well..

Offline NickZ

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #133 on: November 27, 2011, 11:21:03 PM »
  I could be wrong but it seams that if there is no air, like in a totally sealed cell, there can't be an electrolysis reaction. This needs to be confirmed.
   I'm still working  with the Carbon/Quarts cells.  I find that with just a small piece or plain beach wood carbon, and a small piece of aluminum I can generate about one volt of power.  If I use a carbon rod as the anode, sometimes 1.2 volts,  and without the carbon rod I can get about 0.770 volts with Just two things, the Aluminum and Carbon, ONLY.  No additional electrolyte, no salts,  No Water, and no oxidation.
  With a better and more conducive grade of carbon and pure magnesium, I'm sure that cell voltages of 1.5 volts or higher can be easily obtained, possibly for a very long time. The cell size would determines the current levels, but even small to tiny dry Carbon/Quartz Aluminum/ cells can produce good voltage levels.  Anyways, that's what I'm working on...
   Any ideas such as which carbon may be the best to use for the cells, are welcome.
 

Offline ibpointless2

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Re: Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells
« Reply #134 on: November 28, 2011, 01:16:44 AM »
@nickz


"I could be wrong but it seams that if there is no air, like in a totally sealed cell, there can't be an electrolysis reaction.[/size] "[/size]


I thought the same thing too, but I don't fully understand it either. I know that a lead acid battery gets its voltage from the making of H2O, and when you charge the battery you're splitting the the H2O up. A battery is nothing more than a Hydrogen Fuel cell, where it combines with oxygen to make electricity and water. When you supply power to recharge a battery it creates electrolysis where it splits the water up and when you need power they come back together to make water and electricity. When you have too much water you don't have enough acid(ions) thus you battery dies until you charge it again.




For your cell i know you use aluminum and carbon as the electrode, but what is the electrolyte? Is it just burnt wood from the beach? beach sand? I've tried charcoal briquettes but i only get 3 milli-volts at the most unless i put water on it then i get about 700mV.

 

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