New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: YoderIII on October 13, 2011, 04:34:27 PM

Title: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: YoderIII on October 13, 2011, 04:34:27 PM
I built a rolled earth battery capacitor. It is about 12" across. I used 200 square feet of metal with a different metal 3/4 core pipe. I used a plastic type mesh material with a 10 year in ground life span.

I understand that the the thicker the plastic mesh material the more capacitance my earth battery will have. What are the limits and how do I test? It takes several hours to roll an earth battery capacitor.

Right now I have it in a salt water bucket for testing purposes. I will soon put it into the ground outside.

I need some help on the readings of my multimeter. (I always have trouble)

AC Voltage
750 Setting I get reading of 001
200 setting I get 00.8

DC Voltages
1000 Setting I get 001
200 Setting I get 00.6
20 Setting I get 0.62
2000m setting I get 614

DC Currents
10A Setting I get 0.01
200ma Setting I get 126.0 (about)
20ma Setting I get 16.49

So how many volts do I have?

Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: gyulasun on October 13, 2011, 10:19:00 PM

Hi,

From your voltage readings the most probable truth is DC 614mV in the 2000mV setting.
The current reading is probably believable for the 16.49mA in the 20mA range. The 126mA current in the 200mA range is doubtful though not impossible, hopefully you have a trusty meter in that range too.
I comment this purely by analyzing your data.

Here is a low voltage Joule thief circuit operating from a 550mV copper-zinc home made battery, consuming about 15mA current:

So I suggest your trying to build the circuit and see 'visually' how long the earth battery could run it.  OF course you can substitute this circuit with a resistor to load the earth battery, the resistor value could be 0.6V/0.015A=42 Ohm (I rounded up from 40) and occasionally you could take voltage measurements across this resistor to learn about the battery voltage.  On Joule thief circuits you can find pleanty info on the forum.

Gyula
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: nul-points on October 13, 2011, 10:24:09 PM
I built a rolled earth battery capacitor. It is about 12" across. I used 200 square feet of metal with a different metal 3/4 core pipe. I used a plastic type mesh material with a 10 year in ground life span.

I understand that the the thicker the plastic mesh material the more capacitance my earth battery will have
[...]

it sounds like you've mostly made a battery - one electrode is a roll of metal sheet, the other is just a rod - not much area in common for a capacitor - but construction is similar to some battery technologies

BTW, just for reference i think you'll find that capacitance decreases with thickness of separator

Quote from: YoderIII date=1318516467
[...]
DC Voltages
[...]
2000m setting I get 614

DC Currents
[...]
200ma Setting I get 126.0 (about)
[...]

So how many volts do I have?

almost twice as much as Bill Mehess  :)

(614mV)

but your current is probably 100s of times larger!

126mA (the difference in short-circuit meter current readings due to different internal shunt resistance for the different current ranges)

...so you'll probably be able to run quite a powerful Joule Thief from your 'Earth Battery'

hope this helps
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

[EDIT - oops - crossed post with Gyula - forget i spoke!  ;) ]

Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: gyulasun on October 13, 2011, 11:15:29 PM

[EDIT - oops - crossed post with Gyula - forget i spoke!  ;) ]

;D   :)

LOL

By the way I agree with you on the inner resistance differences of the different measurement ranges of course and this is here accompanied by a non-linear load dependent inner resistance of such an earth battery.

Greetings,  Gyula
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: nul-points on October 14, 2011, 12:57:33 AM
[...]
... and this is here accompanied by a non-linear load dependent inner resistance of such an earth battery.

Greetings,  Gyula

hi Gyula - yes, good point!
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: YoderIII on October 14, 2011, 04:15:51 AM

So when the separator is thicker capacitance goes down? What about when high voltages are involved? Bleed over? Because when this is put into the ground outside it should be taping the Aether.

If the separator determines the capacitance should I try to wind it tighter? Use a thinner separator?

Should more surface area increase the voltage? Have I gone about this wrong? I know if you use plates (copper and aluminum) (Iron and aluminum) with a separator put into the ground outside you just use more surface area. Meaning adding more plates or using larger plates to increase the voltage. I used 200 sq feet of metal. Should I not get more voltage? Do I need a bigger pipe for my center? 1 inch 2 inches?

Lastly, I do plan to build a Joule thief. I first need to determine that this earth battery capacitor is working correctly.

Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: YoderIII on October 14, 2011, 06:37:34 AM
it sounds like you've mostly made a battery - one electrode is a roll of metal sheet, the other is just a rod - not much area in common for a capacitor - but construction is similar to some battery technologies

BTW, just for reference i think you'll find that capacitance decreases with thickness of separator

almost twice as much as Bill Mehess  :)

(614mV)

but your current is probably 100s of times larger!

126mA (the difference in short-circuit meter current readings due to different internal shunt resistance for the different current ranges)

...so you'll probably be able to run quite a powerful Joule Thief from your 'Earth Battery'

hope this helps
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

[EDIT - oops - crossed post with Gyula - forget i spoke!  ;) ]

If I understand then  I need a different meter to measure the current? If so what would you recommend?

Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: gyulasun on October 14, 2011, 09:44:42 AM
So when the separator is thicker capacitance goes down?

Yes. Study this link to get it:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pplate.html

Quote
What about when high voltages are involved? Bleed over? Because when this is put into the ground outside it should be taping the Aether.

It depends on the insulator properties (you happen to use) at what HV it breaks down. By the way when you put it into the ground there can be no HV involved at all.

Quote
If the separator determines the capacitance should I try to wind it tighter? Use a thinner separator?
Yes.

Quote
Should more surface area increase the voltage?
More surface area mainly increases current, voltage is mainly determined by the galvanic voltage distance of the two different metals.

Quote
I know if you use plates (copper and aluminum) (Iron and aluminum) with a separator put into the ground outside you just use more surface area. Meaning adding more plates or using larger plates to increase the voltage. I used 200 sq feet of metal. Should I not get more voltage? Do I need a bigger pipe for my center? 1 inch 2 inches?

You have to study another thread in this forum: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.0

Quote

No.  The voltage depends on how heavy or easy a load is (any load). Please study this:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/dcex6.html

Gyula
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: YoderIII on October 14, 2011, 05:52:11 PM

(614mV)

but your current is probably 100s of times larger!

hope this helps
np

OK, I need to make a circuit with a Lamp as example and a resistor as suggested, then measure the current. This will tell me a possible current of 100's of times larger?
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: Smackattacked on October 14, 2011, 06:56:12 PM
Very Interesting!  I am also building an earth capacitor.  Im using a 3 foot aluminum pipe, plastic scrren mesh for the insulator, and insulated copper wire.  I tried sanding away the top layer of insulation off of the copper wire, but I found that the wire would snap if it was accidentally sanded too much/hard.  In that case, would it be ok to solder the broken wires together to maintain the connection? After reading this, Im gonna try to finish up the first layer by tomorrow.  I halted to the project temporarily to finish building the fuelless heater.
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: YoderIII on October 14, 2011, 11:10:23 PM
As far as I know it is ok to solider back together. It would be better (from what I know ) to use uninsulated wire with your mesh (separator) in between.

Let me know how it goes.
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: YoderIII on October 14, 2011, 11:12:56 PM
Welcome to our discussion.

As far as I know it is ok to solider back together. It would be better (from what I know ) to use uninsulated wire with your mesh (separator) in between.

Let me know how it goes.

What do you know about how it should react once put into the ground outside?
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: YoderIII on October 14, 2011, 11:15:50 PM
My voltage has slowly increased over the last few days in my tests as I predicted.
Title: Re: Some Rolled Earth Battery Capacitor Questions
Post by: Smackattacked on November 11, 2011, 03:51:08 PM
I havent posted on here in a while but how are other people's earth capacitors doing?  I will post a picture of my current progress soon.