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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Low-Q on September 27, 2011, 09:51:25 PM

Title: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on September 27, 2011, 09:51:25 PM
Hi,

I want to start a new thread about pseudo forces, which lead to the centrifugal power plant idea I have described here:

So I continue with this idea in a new thread. Attached there is a picture. The picture is also posted at BigThink on Facebook.

I frankly cannot explain away the possible excess energy. Look at the picture an try to understand the way it is suppose to work. If you have any questions, please let me know. Any comment are welcome as well. I hope the picture tells more about what I have in mind, and what I have understood is the way it is suppose to work.
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: brian334 on September 27, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
1. What is a coriolis force?
2. How does a coriolis force work?
3. How much force does a coriolis force have?
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: mr_bojangles on September 27, 2011, 11:32:08 PM
the pressure against the inner tubing?

 wouldnt it be more efficient to have one generator on the axle of the spinning mechanism?

generators at the ends of the pipes would decrease rotational inertia

Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on September 28, 2011, 10:19:47 AM
The mechanism must pick up kinetic energy from the water flow in the tubes. The generator could ofcourse then be placed at the inlet of the mass/water in the center, but NOT at the axle of the spinning disc. I will explain why.

This disc is basicly a centrifugal pump. When the disc spins, the water in the tubes are forced outwards because of the centrifugal force. This is basics of a centrifugal pump. The centrifugal force is a pseudo force that acts on the water in the spinning tubes, but only when the tubes are spinning. The acceleration of the water flow have a cost, and this cost is the Coriolis force which counteract the rotation only when water are allowed to flow through the tubes. So basicly we must apply enough energy to provide a continous spin.

However, when the tubes are bended away from the rotational direction, the water jet out of the tubes will act force that is tengential to the rotation in opposite direction, and counteract the breaking Coriolis force. This way we provide energy into the system, but gets all the energy back because og the water jets - this happens at the same time. The energy is conserved inside a closed loop. So we will be able to spin the disc like it was an ordinary solid disc. Friction will be the only break - and we cannot be without friction.

Since the energy is conserved inside a closed loop, we cannot get energy out without stopping the rotation. Therfor we cannot put a generator directly to the axle.

The point is, however, that there is a balance between the Coriolis force and the tangential force from the jets - conservation of energy in the closed loop. This relationship is possibly regardless of the water speed through the tubes - it will allways balance and conserve the energy. Even if we clog the tubes completely so water is stopped completely, it still takes no energy to run the wheel. Energy is still conserved inside the closed loop.

The strange thing is that this means that we can possibly place a turbine inside the waterflow (not the axle), and load the turbine with a generator, which however slows down the velocity of the waterflow, but without affecting the input energy. We can do this because there is one force left which is not a part of the equation of the forces in the spinning disc. This force is the centrifugal force which force the water to flow.

Then we have a continous faterflow without the need of input energy. From THAT flow we can harness energy.

That is the idea anyways.

I did also recently read that a Sweedish inventor have already a patent on the same principles. He has a patent in Sweeden and US, and that is the only patent on a so called "free energy device". He got his patent because the patent offices could not explain away the the invention, and could not be able to fully understand how and why it worked.
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on September 28, 2011, 10:31:46 AM
1. What is a coriolis force?
2. How does a coriolis force work?
3. How much force does a coriolis force have?
1.Coriolis force is the counterforce that breaks a rotation if the mass in the rotation is moving radially outwards from the center of rotation. Look at the figure skater when she spins around on the ice. When she pulls her arms together, the spin increase. When she spread the arms, the spin slows down. This is the Coriolis force.

2. Like explained in point 1.

3. It depends on the mass, the radial velocity of the mass (How fast the mass moves away from or towards the center of rotation), and the tangential velocity of the mass, (the speed of the mass that is related to how fast the spin is).
Great mass, at great radial velocity, at high tengential velocity provides the greatest Coriolis force. As one or both velocities decrease the Coriolis force are reduced. If the mass is less, then the Coriolis force is reduced.

Vidar
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: lancaIV on September 28, 2011, 10:42:27 AM
Best "working principle" example "Denise Biellmann (Iten)-Pirouette" !  ::)

Erich Proeschel invented something similar, Gravitationskraeftemotor,
Publication numbers DD150494 or DE2922736 !

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&adjacent=true&locale=en_gb&FT=D&date=19801211&CC=DE&NR=2922736A1&KC=A1

Enter "Mosaics" !

Have a good day
                       CdL
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on September 28, 2011, 10:46:44 AM
the pressure against the inner tubing?

 wouldnt it be more efficient to have one generator on the axle of the spinning mechanism?

generators at the ends of the pipes would decrease rotational inertia
The pressure against the inner tubing (I assume you mean the part of the tube which is close to center) is negativ. It is sub-pressure which allows the water to be pulled in. The pressure is zero after 70% of the tube. The pressure at the end of the tubes are opposite equal to the sub-pressure at the inlet.

If the g-forces exceeds 9.8g at the outlet, there will occour vacuum pockets at the inlet (If I have calculated correctly)

Vidar
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Cherryman on September 28, 2011, 12:13:30 PM
Hi Lowq

Still on it I see  ;D

I also do believe it is worth to investigate more, unfortunately I hadn't had the time to work things out yet.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9445.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9445.0)

Good work, keep on going!

Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on September 28, 2011, 01:11:30 PM
Hi Lowq

Still on it I see  ;D

I also do believe it is worth to investigate more, unfortunately I hadn't had the time to work things out yet.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9445.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9445.0)

Good work, keep on going!
Yeah, I'll keep going :)

I remember the discussion, and your animation. I also tested the centrifugal pump with a drill and a carbon fiber tube. It was a mess of water all over the place.

What I found out was that it required energy to rotate the tube due to the Coriolis counter force. I still have the drill and the carbon fiber tube. Now I will try to fix a bend on each sides to see what happens with the energy consumptions. Except that water and 220V AC powergrid does not combine, I will at least learn for a second or two what difference it makes to bend the ends of the tube before I pass out from electric shock... ;D

Btw. In your animation the turbines are aligned vertical. If you align them horizontal, the rotation will not suffer from the gyroscopic counter force in the turbines.

Vidar
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on September 28, 2011, 04:23:43 PM
Here is my previous experiments, and previous thoughts about the subjects. However, the subject is to rise water without input energy. I am not sure that is possible, but loading a flowing water will make it easier to rotate the sprinkler, and hopefully, and finally, be able to produce more energy than it consumes....

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9445.msg253756#msg253756 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9445.msg253756#msg253756)

Vidar
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: brian334 on September 29, 2011, 10:34:27 PM
Coriolis force is the counterforce that breaks a rotation if the mass in the rotation is moving radially outwards from the center of rotation.

Gibberish
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on September 30, 2011, 07:02:59 AM
Yes. The mass will accelerate tangential and therfor provide a pressure against the wall I the tube in opposite direction of rotation. Vidar.
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on September 30, 2011, 11:17:08 AM
Yes. The mass will accelerate tangential and therfor provide a pressure against the wall I the tube in opposite direction of rotation. Vidar.
The Coriolis effect is seen in the vortex of water or in the clouds that moves with the wind. If the wind blows from the North pole in south direction, the wind will theoretically move in a stright line in space, but will curve to the right relative to the ground due to earth rotation. In a radial aligned tube, the radially moving mass is prevented to move in a stright line in space, but follow the rotation instead. As the mass moves closer to the periphery the velocity will increase tangentially. This tangential acceleration of mass will counterforce rotation. Maybe the name of this force isn't Coriolis force, but never the less, the force is there to break rotation.

This force is something I know well because I have tested it. I used a drill and a carbon tube with an inlet in the center. I can feel great torque in the drill as the water flows outwards through the rotating tube. I will do a second test with 90 degrees bended nozzles at the periphery. I will report the results in this thread.

Vidar
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on October 01, 2011, 01:57:13 PM
I did a small test with a 1m plumbing tube which is 32mm in diameter I bought yesterday. I attached a plastic bag in one end that was filled with air. Then I held the tube, with the bag towards me, and started to spin myself around with 1/2 round pr. second. It took about 6 seconds to inflate the plastic bag, or 3 rounds.

Then I put on a 90 degree bend, pointing towards the rotation. I repeated the experiment, and found that the bag does not inflate at all - it keeps its volume no matter how long time I spin it around.

Then I changed the direction of the bend to point away from rotation. With same speed, it now took about 3 seconds to inflate the bag, or 1 1/2 round.

I could not measure the Coriolis torque, but the results of the experiment clearly shows that the air flow increase 100% when the bend points in opposite direction of rotation, and the flow decrease 100% when the bend points towards rotation compared to have no bend, or the bend pointing angular to rotation.

That also mean that the Coriolis countertorque is doubled at double air flow, but is some how compensated by the greater outputspeed of the air away from rotation. I cannot confirm if there is a perfect balance between the Coriolis counterforce and the forward force provided by the outlet air flow. But I assume the drag behind the output created an additional sub-pressure which increased the air flow through the tube.

It also mean that the Coriolis force are zero when the bend points towards rotation since there is no airflow in the tube. The pressure in front of the output perfectly balance the centrifugal force. This can at least confirm that is does not take energy to maintain rotation in this particular demonstration, but is is not possible to harness energy out of it either.

The big question is wether it takes energy or not to spin the tube when the bend points away from the rotation - where the air flow increased by 100%.

Vidar
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Cherryman on October 04, 2011, 11:19:04 AM
Here is a nice example of the concept:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1TTc8t1pOc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1TTc8t1pOc&feature=related)
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on October 04, 2011, 04:43:42 PM
I did the swinging hose experiment in my bathroom a while ago. My wife wasn't very happy about it, but my kids loved it ;D

Vidar
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Airstriker on October 05, 2011, 03:35:32 AM
Hi Low-Q,

Is it possible to see the Swedish guy patents you mentioned? The US one would be nice.

Thanks,
Julian
Title: Re: Free energy from pseudo forces?
Post by: Low-Q on October 05, 2011, 03:11:58 PM
Hi Low-Q,

Is it possible to see the Swedish guy patents you mentioned? The US one would be nice.

Thanks,
Julian
Here is a link to some different things - also the patent.

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20080319222700data_trunc_sys.shtml (http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20080319222700data_trunc_sys.shtml)

http://energythic.com/view.php?node=197 (http://energythic.com/view.php?node=197)

A patent in Sweeden:
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Inventors/VlidimirKangas/index.html (http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Inventors/VlidimirKangas/index.html)

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=290 (http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=290)

Vidar