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## Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Low-Q on September 13, 2011, 06:56:15 PM

Title: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 13, 2011, 06:56:15 PM
A water tank is 10m high. The tank is full of water. At the bottom of the tank there is an outlet.

Now take a rotating spiral shaped hose or tube which is connected to the outlet, so the water pressure is allowed to power a centrifuge/spiral tube. At no rotation of the centrifuge the water will have the speed of 9-10m/s out of the spiral outlet. Now release the centrifuge so it starts to spin around (It certainly will due to water pressure).

What will happen with the speed of water through the outlet when the centrifuge starts to run? Will it increase speed, or will the water speed be the same?

This question has been bugging my mind several times. Because if the centrifuge accelerate the water (Able to emty the tank faster) due to the centrifugal force, there is excess energy to squirt the water back into the water tank 10 meters up!!

Any thoughts are welcome.

Vidar
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Alaa3 on September 17, 2011, 04:51:51 AM
i was thinking in this exactly idea about 2 years ago !!

Glad that i am not the only one who thought  that idea may works
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 18, 2011, 07:12:32 AM
Hi folks, Hi low-Q, thanks for sharing your idea, though how would you extract useful work from that setup?
Here is an idea I came up with, one can have a generator attached to water wheel and use electricity to power water pump and maybe some excess useful output.
peace love light
tyson
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: excessAlex on September 18, 2011, 04:24:05 PM
Hi skywatcher123, nice idea!.. I would like to give you some advice, if I can. English is not my primary language, sorry..

according to your schematic, from my point of view, you should expand the pool of water that is in the upper side, so as to make one large cylinder. the container at the top should be closed and not opened, the output of the pump should feed the entry of water into the upper reservoir with a sealed circuit. At the bottom of the container than there should be a calibrated output with check valve, the lower section of your system (including the wheel) must be in one container, not opened, but sealed. the entire system designed  by you and modified as I have suggested should be in this way enclosed in a full sealed circuit . In doing so we get this benefit: the whole system becomes a closed circuit and instead to use a booster pump, you can use a circulator pump, which absorbs much less energy because it has no extra work needed to push water up to the level of top container.
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 18, 2011, 05:47:27 PM
Easy test: remove the bottom of a soda bottle. Fix on a spiral hose at the other end. Now hang up the bottle upside down in a thread. Fill it with water and measure the time for the bottle to emty when the bottle rotates vs no rotation. The possible centrifugal force will shorten the time it takes to emty it. If so, it should be overunity (?).
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 18, 2011, 09:28:42 PM
Hi folks, Hi low-Q, thanks for sharing your idea, though how would you extract useful work from that setup?
Here is an idea I came up with, one can have a generator attached to water wheel and use electricity to power water pump and maybe some excess useful output.
peace love light
tyson
The gravitywheel you got there will not work. Even if you align the weights to "release" sooner, it has a cost, and that is the increased torque on the left side due to the spacers you attached to each arm - they will increase the distance between the left hand weights and the hub. Also have in mind that such and similar gravity wheels will not work because each weight starts and ends at the same altitude during one revolution, so there will not be excess potential energy to be released as kinetic energy - for instance in order to run the pump.

EDIT: I see now the water will run the wheel, but why a gravity wheel style turbine?

Anyways, here is the drawing of the bottle idea. Fill it with water and let the water pressure propell the rotation. Maybe in the same direction as the Coriolis effect applies to the flowing water?
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 19, 2011, 01:15:01 AM
Hi low-q, thanks for sharing your drawing. I now can see what you are describing.
I am not trying to debunk your idea, just wondering where any useful work will come from that setup, which i think is an ingenious idea.
In my idea, it has two sources of energy to extract from, gravity of falling water and possibly an extra boost from impacting water cups and then the unbalanced water wheel will extract gravity energy also, in hope of creating a self runner.
Why did i think up this gravity wheel, because I saw that self running water wheel video on youtube, where he loops a water pump that uses high pressure water jet to impact water wheel and it powers a light bulb load and self runs.
peace love light
tyson
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 19, 2011, 02:24:50 PM
Hi low-q, thanks for sharing your drawing. I now can see what you are describing.
I am not trying to debunk your idea, just wondering where any useful work will come from that setup, which i think is an ingenious idea.
In my idea, it has two sources of energy to extract from, gravity of falling water and possibly an extra boost from impacting water cups and then the unbalanced water wheel will extract gravity energy also, in hope of creating a self runner.
Why did i think up this gravity wheel, because I saw that self running water wheel video on youtube, where he loops a water pump that uses high pressure water jet to impact water wheel and it powers a light bulb load and self runs.
peace love light
tyson
Questioning, or even debunk ideas, is the very reason for progress as the inventor can possibly reconsider the idea and make changes. So thanks for your input :)
I will make a real life device of this bottle. Just to measure the time it takes to emty the bottle.

Can't wait to try :)

Vidar
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 19, 2011, 07:05:02 PM
Well, now I have tried. I will make a video of my attemt with a milk cartoon and a thread.

The results are following.

In the shower I hanged up the cartoon, and filled it with water. I measured the time to empty 1 litre of water with two 5mm nozzles which is angled to force rotation.

At no rotation, it took 40 seconds to emty 1 litre.
At self rotation it took 32 seconds to emty 1 litre.

I will make more tests to make sure my whishes don't color the results.

Vidar
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 20, 2011, 11:55:13 AM
I did some more tests, and it seams it takes shorter time to emty 1 litre at self rotation compared to no rotation. I will make a plastic bottle test as well because the holes in the cartoon couldn't hold the tubes and the glue anymore (wet cartoon and glue does not work well).

Vidar
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 25, 2011, 08:21:23 PM
Hi,

I made, well my doughter did the shot, a video of the experiment. It seams it takes shorter time to empty the bottle when it self spin. The video is not good, and I forgot to enable the audio, but I hope you can see the experiment.

It shows it takes about 8 seconds to empty the bottle the first time. Last time, when it self spins, it takes 5 - 6 seconds.

Vidar
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Magluvin on September 25, 2011, 10:02:51 PM
Just think, you can have the jets also aimed at paddle wheels as it spins. This will probably help the jets to have something to push on and it makes use of the water in motion after it leaves the jet.

So the tank may spin faster and more energy had by paddle wheels hit by jets.  ;]

Mags
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 25, 2011, 10:32:41 PM
Just think, you can have the jets also aimed at paddle wheels as it spins. This will probably help the jets to have something to push on and it makes use of the water in motion after it leaves the jet.

So the tank may spin faster and more energy had by paddle wheels hit by jets.  ;]

Mags
I have done alot of thinking on this one. It seems the jet is compensating for the energy it takes to rotate a centrifugal pump, by pushing the nozzles. Right after I release the nozzles, the water emties quite fast. As the water level decrease, the power in the jets gets weaker, and the rotation slows down.
If the rotation increase the water flow, the jets also push harder. That will again allow the centrifugal pump be "self powered" regardless of RPM. It seams that the jets allways feeds back the energy it needs to run the centrifugal pump.

If we put a generator inside those pipes, and load them, the waterflow will decrease, but also the decreased water flow will require less energy to flow, and less energy required from the jets to keep it running.

So regardless of the amount of energy we take out from the generators, it will still not require energy to rotate the centrifugal pump - because of the jets (???)

Vidar
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 25, 2011, 11:01:10 PM
Look at this idea - happens to be the same thing as we discuss here (?):
http://energythic.com/view.php?node=197 (http://energythic.com/view.php?node=197)
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 25, 2011, 11:26:12 PM
I am reading about the Coriolis counter force. It perfectly counterforce the tagential force provided by the tagential bended nozzles. No energy escapes from the rotating centrifugal pump, and no energy is required to run the pump.

So what happens when we place a turbine with a generator in the pipes? Will it be able to give us the excess  energy without the need of extra energy supply?

When the water slows down because the generator is taking parts of the kinetic energy in the water flow, there will be less Coriolis counter torque, at the same time as the tagential force from the nozzles also decrease accordingly. If P-in is zero, and P-out is zero for the centrifugal pump itself, we can still harness the energy in the waterflow - because the Coriolis torque and nozzle torque allways cancel eachother out, and does not require any net energy input to work... ??? That should not be possible!

Or have I missed something?

Vidar
Title: Re: The classical water tank and the automatic refill
Post by: Low-Q on September 26, 2011, 02:36:59 PM
If I have understood correctly, it should not be possible to pump water into a higher level without need for input energy, since the tangential velocity must increase in order to create enough sub-pressure at the inlet. This will generate greater Coriolis torque than what the jets will compensate.

This centrifugal pump will therfor work best (require least input energy) when placed in the same level as the water inlet level. Then harness the kinetic energy from the water flow inside the rotating tubes instead.