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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 662453 times)

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1140 on: April 21, 2013, 12:59:39 AM »
Oh. So he is going to do the individual tests next?


Mags

Why ? Can you see a reason ? I'm open minded.

Synchro, Sorry for the dig at you, I meant no harm. My apologies.

I watched the "south pole monopole" video, seems he increases the power just enough to detect the south pole.
Maybe the south pole is more concentrated or something, if he increases the power more it might show detectable levels for the north pole.
Imagine a permanent magnet with some length, in the shape of a cone, with the south pole as the tip and the north pole as the big round base.
I'm seeing a concentration of field lines at the tip of the cone. Maybe. Dunno. must be an explanation.

Cheers

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1140 on: April 21, 2013, 12:59:39 AM »

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1141 on: April 21, 2013, 01:03:30 AM »
Farmhand:

With the coils in series they don't have to have the same resistance.  That's the point for putting them in series, to negate any requirement to do precise current flow measurements.

Magluvin:

Of course it actually would be easy to do do separate tests.  All that you need is a multimeter set to read current and preferably a variable-voltage power supply.

Putting them in parallel is no good.   By the same token, their resistances are probably so close in value that putting them in parallel would probably work and show the same field strength.  The point is that you should be aware that you don't want to do this.

MileHigh

I realize that, I was addressing what I assumed Mag's concern was, that there was some restriction on the bifilar coil from being in series.

..

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1142 on: April 21, 2013, 01:03:48 AM »
Synchro1:

Quote
In fairness as a replicator, standards of conformance are called for. The coils are close enough to one another to cause a horseshoe effect. This constitutes a serious departure from the original experiment.

Don't be surprised if the tests were done with one bolt being tested and the other bolt out of the way and vice-versa.  The two bolts were then placed together for the picture.  Even like this, note there is no "horseshoe effect" visible in the picture at all.

You are trying to find reasons to invalidate the experiment but it's not going to happen.  I am assuming that you never did this experiment yourself.  I asked you and you intentionally ignored the question.  Like I said, don't trust everything you see on the Internet.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1142 on: April 21, 2013, 01:03:48 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1143 on: April 21, 2013, 01:15:05 AM »
Quote from Tesla Builder...

"The same amount of voltage, from the same battery, produces twice as much energy in the bifilar wound coil as in the single wound coil." 

Doesnt say anything about free energy

The page does not say that the current remains the same, only that the same voltage is used. And if he implies that there is more energy in the bifi, then he is not saying that the current is the same either.

So putting the 2 in series deprives the bifi from the possibility of taking on more current initially than the single fi coil because the single fi is in the way.

So do you guys believe that putting the 2 coils in series is definitive proof that the bifi cannot produce a stronger mag field using the same voltage input individually?

Mags

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1144 on: April 21, 2013, 01:26:00 AM »
Quote from Tesla Builder...

"The same amount of voltage, from the same battery, produces twice as much energy in the bifilar wound coil as in the single wound coil." 

Doesnt say anything about free energy

The page does not say that the current remains the same, only that the same voltage is used. And if he implies that there is more energy in the bifi, then he is not saying that the current is the same either.

So putting the 2 in series deprives the bifi from the possibility of taking on more current initially than the single fi coil because the single fi is in the way.

So do you guys believe that putting the 2 coils in series is definitive proof that the bifi cannot produce a stronger mag field using the same voltage input individually?

Mags

Do his coils actually have the same length of wire in them ? If the DC resistances are different he either has more wire on one or a different gauge wire on one.
If the coils have both exactly the same DC resistance then the same DC current will flow for the same applied voltage, then the two could be tested separate and
the result would be much the same as Gyulasun achieved. If the DC resistances were the same and the applied DC voltage is the same the current will be the same
then a comparison can be made. No matter in series or separate.

So yes I do.

Cheers

P.S. Total turns on the bifilar should equal total turns on the single winding coil as well.

..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1144 on: April 21, 2013, 01:26:00 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1145 on: April 21, 2013, 01:26:51 AM »

Magluvin:

Of course it actually would be easy to do do separate tests.  All that you need is a multimeter set to read current and preferably a variable-voltage power supply.

Putting them in parallel is no good.   By the same token, their resistances are probably so close in value that putting them in parallel would probably work and show the same field strength.  The point is that you should be aware that you don't want to do this.

MileHigh

Hmm. I dont get it. The site does not require or state any current differences or equalities between the 2 different coils.

What is stated is that the bifi has more magnetic pull than the singlefi. But it appears the argument here is the current draw differences. Well putting them in series is a flawed test of that being that the current will be the same in series.

And parallel would be a good test as each coil will have its own ability to do with that voltage presence introduced to its leads as it will, without the influence of the others.

You guys know better than that. :-*

Mags

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1146 on: April 21, 2013, 01:32:14 AM »
I denied ever having performed the test!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1146 on: April 21, 2013, 01:32:14 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1147 on: April 21, 2013, 01:32:26 AM »
Hmm. I dont get it. The site does not require or state any current differences or equalities between the 2 different coils.

What is stated is that the bifi has more magnetic pull than the singlefi. But it appears the argument here is the current draw differences. Well putting them in series is a flawed test of that being that the current will be the same in series.

And parallel would be a good test as each coil will have its own ability to do with that voltage presence introduced to its leads as it will, without the influence of the others.

You guys know better than that. :-*

Mags

Do you dispute that if the coils have the same total wire length and the same wire gauge both coils will have the same DC resistance ?

...

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1148 on: April 21, 2013, 01:38:29 AM »
Do his coils actually have the same length of wire in them ? If the DC resistances are different he either has more wire on one or a different gauge wire on one.
If the coils have both exactly the same DC resistance then the same DC current will flow for the same applied voltage, then the two could be tested separate and
the result would be much the same as Gyulasun achieved. If the DC resistances were the same and the applied DC voltage is the same the current will be the same
then a comparison can be made. No matter in series or separate.

So yes I do.

Cheers

P.S. Total turns on the bifilar should equal total turns on the single winding coil as well.

..

But we are neglecting the capacitive differences in the coils. We concentrate on the resistance, the current flow. We are neglecting what happens 'initially' within the 2 coils when the input is connected. 

I would agree that if we measured the current with a meter it would be the same once the field is max. But nobody is looking at what really happens in the beginning. It would be easy to not even notice a peak input current with a meter. A scope would be needed.

If there is an initial high burst of mag field, the nail could be magnetized more even possibly permanently somewhat than if done slowly and without spikes or peaks that would not happen in an inductor of a single wire winding.


Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1148 on: April 21, 2013, 01:38:29 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1149 on: April 21, 2013, 01:42:02 AM »
Do you dispute that if the coils have the same total wire length and the same wire gauge both coils will have the same DC resistance ?

...

I answered that in my last post.  ;)

Mags

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1150 on: April 21, 2013, 01:44:41 AM »
But we are neglecting the capacitive differences in the coils. We concentrate on the resistance, the current flow. We are neglecting what happens 'initially' within the 2 coils when the input is connected. 

I would agree that if we measured the current with a meter it would be the same once the field is max. But nobody is looking at what really happens in the beginning. It would be easy to not even notice a peak input current with a meter. A scope would be needed.

If there is an initial high burst of mag field, the nail could be magnetized more even possibly permanently somewhat than if done slowly and without spikes or peaks that would not happen in an inductor of a single wire winding.


Mags

But then we are talking of a pulsed input. And any oscillation will demagnetize the core after the spike
and reverse the magnetic polarity because of a reversal in current..


P.S

Also if the inductance is the same or more then the rate of rise of the current will be the same or less.

Some kind of very slight effects might be seen and if they are useful to you then good, go ahead and use it.

But to me the actual purpose of the patent is to lower the resonant frequency of a coil with a given length of wire
without the need of external capacitors or a loss or magnetic field strength.

When we use the coil at resonance frequency we will see the biggest advantage, as well as with higher voltages the advantages are more "apparent". apparently.  ;D

Using a frequency means pulsing or AC excitation.

Is there any purposes for AC electromagnets ?

.

..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1150 on: April 21, 2013, 01:44:41 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1151 on: April 21, 2013, 01:57:19 AM »
But then we are talking of a pulsed input. And any oscillation will demagnetize the core after the spike
and reverse the magnetic polarity because of a reversal in current..

..

Maybe. It will have to be looked at, not just make assumptions yet.  ;)   

Mags

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1152 on: April 21, 2013, 02:07:57 AM »
Maybe. It will have to be looked at, not just make assumptions yet.  ;)   

Mags

Yes I agree, have a look is the best way. I'll try to wind the coils today so I can test tonight.

I want a fair bit of inductance so the frequency for the single winding coil is within my 3.3 mHz Function Generator limit, no prob's.

This is a very informative discussion, even though it's completely off topic and in the wrong place to be seen by people trying to research
these coils for previous experiments. All this info is kinda hidden. What a shame, maybe the Moderators could move the posts about the "COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNETS" to
a better place if it's considered a good idea.

Cheers

I guess using toroidal cores is out of the question.  :D

..

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1153 on: April 21, 2013, 02:15:21 AM »
Yes I agree, have a look is the best way. I'll try to wind the coils today so I can test tonight.

I want a fair bit of inductance so the frequency for the single winding coil is within my 3.3 mHz Function Generator limit, no prob's.

This is a very informative discussion, even though it's completely off topic and in the wrong place to be seen by people trying to research
these coils for previous experiments. All this info is kinda hidden. What a shame, maybe the Moderators could move the posts about the "COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNETS" to
a better place if it's considered a good idea.

Cheers

Maybe your right. This is what was being discussed when I rejoined in recently.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1154 on: April 21, 2013, 02:48:15 AM »
We talked about the capacitance neutralizing the self inductance the other day.
If we have a coil with a cap across it, and then we just apply a dc source across it, the cap will charge virtually instantly, but the inductor wont. This might imitate a neutralizing of self inductance of the coil, where the current flows easily through the cap. We are talking about applying DC here.

If the capacitance is 'in' the coil, well that current that charges that capacitance goes 'through the coil' neutralizing the self inductance. And if it neutralizes self inductance, then maybe we could think, does that mean that the magnetic field is neutralized also, or just the effect of impedance is neutralized and outer magnetic field is unaffected. If so then initially there could be a very intense field pulse, as compared to a slowly building standard inductive field build, depending in the inductance.

That internal capacitance is charged through a coil that can make an external field like any other coil and the impedance is neutralized. So until this capacitance is charged, this coil might be acting like a super electromagnet. Sounds like a heck of an idea to patent. ;)

If we consider the cap connected to a coil, there probably isnt any purpose for it in the DC world. But here the capacitance is in the coil, and in my opinion, there should be a difference.

Also I stated earlier about the ability of holding power over time. Well if the field is huge in the beginning through the object being held, this may give us that stronger hold over time, instantly instead.

So you can see why I am emphatic about not testing them in series. It is not conclusive in any way. It does not show if one coil could pull more current than the other with the same voltage input. Its not correct in any way. The only thing that does is possibly show that the 2 coils can pick up the same amount of clips. But the singlefi coil in series wont allow the capacitance of the bifi to charge as it would connected to the supply alone, thus no initial magnetic pulse from the bifi.

Will see soon.  ;)   Im going more is better. :o ;D


Mags

 

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