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### Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 884588 times)

#### SchubertReijiMaigo

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 343
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #405 on: October 25, 2011, 11:25:17 AM »
Hello Gotoluc I have DSO 2090, just a tips to measure the power, use the maths function (CannelA*ChannelB) to display power, if you see a curve that have equal pulse above and bottom the zero line you have reactive power, maybe it will be much easier to read.

Channel -> Maths -> Activate -> SourceA(Channel1) -> SourceB(Channel2) ->
Operation -> A*B...

#### CRANKYpants

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1062
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #406 on: October 25, 2011, 02:39:54 PM »
At everyone,

There could be a mistake somewhere so lets look at this over carefully. Maybe the power meter I'm using is being fooled in this kind of configuration?

A youtube user posted this: "Sorry Luc, but I have to correct you on the voltage leading the current. In a capacitive circuit the current leads the voltage. This is what yourï»¿ scope is showing. Scope traces go from left to right with time."

I thought it was the other way around?... but I may not have it correct. Can you look over the scope shot below and comment.

I think a pure sine wave output inverter would help confirm but I don't have one. Only modified sine wave I have. I'll give that a try and let you know.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

LUC,

THE DIAGRAM BELOW SHOWS A SERIES RLC CIRCUIT. RESONANCE OCCURS WHEN XL AND XC ARE EQUAL AND IS MINIMUM IMPEDANCE AND ZERO PHASE SHIFT.

WHEN XL AND XC ARE MADE UNEQUAL AS IN YOUR CASE... TOTAL IMPEDANCE INCREASES, CURRENT DROPS, AND MOVES OUT OF PHASE WITH THE VOLTAGE.

THE PROBLEM IS THIS DIAGRAM IS FOR AN INDUCTOR BUT YOU HAVE A TRANSFORMER THERE WHICH IS ACTUALLY TWO INDUCTORS IN PARALLEL AND YOUR INDUCTANCES ARE EQUAL AND THE MAGNETIC COUPLING BETWEEN THEM IS PERFECT (M = 1).

SO... THE EQUIVALENT INDUCTANCE WILL BE ZERO AS THE TWO EQUAL INDUCTORS CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT. BECAUSE THE COUNTER FLUX FROM L2 WILL CREATE A NET 0 FLUX IN L1. IN THE DIAGRAM BELOW B WILL = 0 BECAUSE BL1 AND BL2 WILL BE EQUAL AND OPPOSITE.

SO WHAT YOUR METER AND SCOPE ARE READING IS THE POWER DISSIPATED ACROSS A 1 OHM RESISTOR AND A SMALL CAP.

I SUGGEST THAT YOU 1) REMOVE THE SECONDARY LOAD AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS AND 2) REMOVE THE TRANSFORMER AS WELL...?

CHEERS
T

Mutually Coupled Inductors in Parallel

When inductors are connected together in parallel so that the magnetic field of one links with the other, the effect of mutual inductance either increases or decreases the total inductance depending upon the amount of magnetic coupling that exists between the coils. The effect of this mutual inductance depends upon the distance apart of the coils and their orientation to each other. Mutually connected inductors in parallel can be classed as either "aiding" or "opposing" the total inductance with parallel aiding connected coils increasing the total equivalent inductance and parallel opposing coils decreasing the total equivalent inductance compared to coils that have zero mutual inductance. http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/parallel-inductors.html
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 03:03:20 PM by CRANKYpants »

#### Jack Noskills

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 346
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #407 on: October 25, 2011, 02:53:12 PM »
Is it possible to select C for parallel resonance so that it blocks 50/60 Hz signal ? If so, what if you then put transformer that has one way induction (e.g. gabriel device), you could then take power from it but there would be no current flowing in the source because of parallel resonance.

Normal transformer would not work because of mutual inductance that would drive the parallel circuit out of resonance. Or there would need to be tunable capacitor and adjust it differently for every different kind of load.

#### Overunityguide

• Full Member
• Posts: 107
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #408 on: October 25, 2011, 03:07:50 PM »

[...]

WHEN XL AND XC ARE MADE UNEQUAL AS IN YOUR CASE... TOTAL IMPEDANCE INCREASES, CURRENT DROPS, AND MOVES OUT OF PHASE WITH THE VOLTAGE.

THE PROBLEM IS THIS DIAGRAM IS FOR AN INDUCTOR BUT YOU HAVE A TRANSFORMER THERE WHICH IS ACTUALLY TWO INDUCTORS IN PARALLEL AND YOUR INDUCTANCES ARE EQUAL AND THE MAGNETIC COUPLING BETWEEN THEM IS PERFECT (M = 1).

SO... THE EQUIVALENT INDUCTANCE WILL BE ZERO AS THE TWO EQUAL INDUCTORS CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT. BECAUSE THE COUNTER FLUX FROM L2 WILL CREATE A NET 0 FLUX IN L1. IN THE DIAGRAM BELOW B WILL = 0. BECAUSE BL1 AND BL2 WILL BE EQUAL AND OPPOSITE.

[...]

Dear Thane,

This is exactly what I was thinking, it runs almost totally capacitive. (sure no resonance)
So power factor is indeed almost: 0 (or almost 90 degrees capacitive). And indeed a heavily loaded transformer will respond more like a much smaller (lower ohmic) normal resistive load. So in Luc's video it could be that he is indeed showing his first steps to overunity.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

#### CRANKYpants

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1062
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #409 on: October 25, 2011, 03:27:08 PM »
LUC,

I HAVE A 12V DC - 120 VAC INVERTER IF YOU WANT TO BORROW IT.
LET ME KNOW AS I'LL BE IN OTTAWA TODAY.

CHEERS
T

#### vineet_kiran

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 382
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #410 on: October 25, 2011, 03:35:05 PM »

To all concerned

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #411 on: October 25, 2011, 04:41:22 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm sorry to say but there is an error in my circuit ... my voltage probe was on the grid side of the series capacitor and Thane says it should be on the coil side.

Attached is the new scope shot with the probe on the coil side of the cap. As we can see there is no current and voltage phase shift.

My guess is that the power meter was fooled when I reached a certain capacitance value.

I will remove the video as the information is not correct.

Sorry for the confusion

Luc

#### Overunityguide

• Full Member
• Posts: 107
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #412 on: October 25, 2011, 05:13:12 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm sorry to say but there is an error in my circuit ... my voltage probe was on the grid side of the series capacitor and Thane says it should be on the coil side.

Attached is the new scope shot with the probe on the coil side of the cap. As we can see there is no current and voltage phase shift.

My guess is that the power meter was fooled when I reached a certain capacitance value.

I will remove the video as the information is not correct.

Sorry for the confusion

Luc

Hi Luc,
Don't be to fast on your conclusions... Your video is showing an almost 90 degrees phase shift between grid voltage and between total setup current, so I do think that you didn't fooled your wattmeter!

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 05:55:25 PM by Overunityguide »

#### kEhYo77

• Full Member
• Posts: 247
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #413 on: October 25, 2011, 05:30:46 PM »
@gotoluc Why does your new scope shot not show grid voltage vs 1 Ohm resistor voltage but instead some other voltage (output 10 Ohm I guess) is shown? I think that this is misleading...

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #414 on: October 25, 2011, 06:09:04 PM »
Hi Luc,
Don't be to fast on your conclusions... Your video is showing a 90 degrees phase shift between grid voltage and between total setup current, so I do think that you didn't fooled your wattmeter!

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Hi Overunityguide,

I don't know what to think now ... can you answer this question. In a Series LC circuit (like below) where would the Voltage probe be connected?... where I have it or on the other side of the Capacitor?

@gotoluc Why does your new scope shot not show grid voltage vs 1 Ohm resistor voltage but instead some other voltage (output 10 Ohm I guess) is shown? I think that this is misleading...

That's because in the shot above the voltage probe is connected on the other side (coil side) of the series capacitor and you now see the capacitors activity.

I'm now unsure of its correct connection position. If someone can confirm this it would be helpful.

Thanks

Luc

EDITED

I added the Schematic of how I had the probes (green and yellow) connected in the video demo. The difference in where I think there could be an error is the yellow probe could be connected on the other side of the capacitor.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 07:05:01 PM by gotoluc »

#### kEhYo77

• Full Member
• Posts: 247
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #415 on: October 25, 2011, 08:02:38 PM »
@all
A little simulation of gotoluc's test circuit without the shunt resistor.
Apparently the phase angle between the input voltage and current stays the same no matter what I do in here hmm...
The bigger the capacitance the higher the output but the input is all reactive.
gotoluc's circuit simulation
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 09:59:47 PM by kEhYo77 »

#### Overunityguide

• Full Member
• Posts: 107
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #416 on: October 25, 2011, 08:21:52 PM »
Hi Overunityguide,

I don't know what to think now ... can you answer this question. In a Series LC circuit (like below) where would the Voltage probe be connected?... where I have it or on the other side of the Capacitor?

Thanks

Luc

EDITED

I added the Schematic of how I had the probes (green and yellow) connected in the video demo. The difference in where I think there could be an error is the yellow probe could be connected on the other side of the capacitor.

Hi Luc,

Your schematic with the yellow probe and with your green one is the correct setup to measure. This is exactly the same setup as what your wattmeter uses internally. And that when you replace the yellow probe to the other side of the capacitor, you see the voltage and current in phase, is also logic. This can be expected due to the fact that you are loading your transformer with the 10 Ohm load. (this results on a higher power factor on your primary input coil)
So then again I think that your first setup is the correct one...

I also have an other question about the accuracy of your wattmeter, do you know what the accuracy is on lower loads? Lets say lower then 4 watts? I say this because I can remember that when I was buying my wattmeter, that the accuracy for the more cheaper ones was no so good at all, especially in the lower range < 4 watts.

I hope that I have explained the probes issue in an understandable way. And if you have any further questions regarding your setup, then don't hesitate to ask them.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 68
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #417 on: October 25, 2011, 08:39:17 PM »
Hi Luc,

Your schematic with the yellow probe and with your green one is the correct setup to measure. This is exactly the same setup as what your wattmeter uses internally. And that when you replace the yellow probe to the other side of the capacitor, you see the voltage and current in phase, is also logic. This can be expected due to the fact that you are loading your transformer with the 10 Ohm load. (this results on a higher power factor on your primary input coil)
So then again I think that your first setup is the correct one...

I also have an other question about the accuracy of your wattmeter, do you know what the accuracy is on lower loads? Lets say lower then 4 watts? I say this because I can remember that when I was buying my wattmeter, that the accuracy for the more cheaper ones was no so good at all, especially in the lower range < 4 watts.

I hope that I have explained the probes issue in an understandable way. And if you have any further questions regarding your setup, than don't hesitate to ask then them.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

I agree. I am NoMorePetro from YouTube. I would also add here as I stated on YouTube that the voltage is lagging the current slightly less than 90 degrees.
Rick

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #418 on: October 25, 2011, 09:25:58 PM »
@all
A little simulation of gotoluc's test circuit without the shunt resistor.
Apparently the phase angle between the input voltage and current stays the same no matter what I do in here hmm...
The bigger the capacitance the higher the output but the input is all reactive.

Thanks kEhYo77 for doing this circuit simulation. It helps and is a very interesting result.

In my test there is an ideal Capacitance value for the meter to reach Zero Watts. Once reached by just adding 0.5uf the meter would start to show 1 Watt and the more you add the more it goes up. The same happens if you reduce the Capacitance from the ideal value.

Luc

Hi Luc,

Your schematic with the yellow probe and with your green one is the correct setup to measure. This is exactly the same setup as what your wattmeter uses internally. And that when you replace the yellow probe to the other side of the capacitor, you see the voltage and current in phase, is also logic. This can be expected due to the fact that you are loading your transformer with the 10 Ohm load. (this results on a higher power factor on your primary input coil)
So then again I think that your first setup is the correct one...

I also have an other question about the accuracy of your wattmeter, do you know what the accuracy is on lower loads? Lets say lower then 4 watts? I say this because I can remember that when I was buying my wattmeter, that the accuracy for the more cheaper ones was no so good at all, especially in the lower range < 4 watts.

I hope that I have explained the probes issue in an understandable way. And if you have any further questions regarding your setup, then don't hesitate to ask them.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Thanks Overunityguide for confirming if my first probe setup was correct or not.

The Watts meter I used is not a high quality item. It's made by Blue Planet and model: EM100. Maybe someone can find something online about its accuracy at low wattage.

Hopefully Thane can bring over his High Quality Power Meter so we can re-confirm.

Luc

I agree. I am NoMorePetro from YouTube. I would also add here as I stated on YouTube that the voltage is lagging the current slightly less than 90 degrees.
Rick

Thanks Rick for doing this Spice Simulation of the circuit. Great job and idea of making a video of it.

I re-uploaded my video since I now feel confident with everyone's support that this was not an error in my part.

Thanks again for everyone's support.

Luc
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 10:12:14 PM by gotoluc »

#### CRANKYpants

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1062
##### Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #419 on: October 26, 2011, 03:40:37 AM »
I added the Schematic of how I had the probes (green and yellow) connected in the video demo. The difference in where I think there could be an error is the yellow probe could be connected on the other side of the capacitor.

LUC,

IT IS MY OPINION THAT ONE PROBE OUGHT TO BE ACROSS THE 1 OHM SHUNT (CURRENT) AND THE OTHER ACROSS THE PRIMARY OF THE TRANSFORMER (VOLTAGE). NOT THE TRANSFORMER PRIMARY AND CAP COMBINATION.

CHEERS
T