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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 870094 times)

CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #225 on: October 04, 2011, 09:28:02 PM »
OUG, Thane,
In none of his measured situations PF < 0 happened, so no COP>1 !!
Nevertheless, great series of demo's.

I DON'T THINK IT WAS OUG's INTENTION TO SHOW OVERNUDITY.
I THINK HIS INTENTION WAS ONLY TO SHOW A REDUCTION IN INPUT ON LOAD.
IF YOU TURNED ON YOUR MICROWAVE OVEN TO COOK YOUR DINNER AND YOUR METER SLOWED DOWN IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING, NO?

AND I DON'T THINK OUG's VIDEOS ARE THAT GREAT ANYWAY  >:(
NO DRUGS, NO VIOLENCE, AND NO NUDITY OR S.E.X OF ANY KIND!
MIGHT AS WELL BE THE FREAKIN CHURCH CHANNEL  ;).

T

teslaalset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #226 on: October 04, 2011, 10:08:55 PM »
I DON'T THINK IT WAS OUG's INTENTION TO SHOW OVERNUDITY.
I THINK HIS INTENTION WAS ONLY TO SHOW A REDUCTION IN INPUT ON LOAD.
IF YOU TURNED ON YOUR MICROWAVE OVEN TO COOK YOUR DINNER AND YOUR METER SLOWED DOWN IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING, NO?

Indeed I'm a big fan of slow food.
Let's see what happens when a capacity is added to the primary.
Some say it will make a potential difference ;)

gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #227 on: October 04, 2011, 11:08:13 PM »
Hi Luc,

So far I forgot to think of the effect of a shorted coil in case of these transformer tests you have been doing.  Normally a shorted coil or heavily loaded coil reduces all the other coils self inductances on the transformer because of the counter-flux (Lenz law).
You can test this with your L meter connected to say the primary and short the MOT secondary, you may have to see the primary 76-80mH normal inductance value drops to the 10-12mH range (if you indeed measured 76-80mH when the secondary was an open circuit).

A "problem" still seems manifesting in case of the second scope picture you uploaded whereby the f=46.3Hz, 60uF is in parallel with the primary and the secondary is unsorted. In this case the LC resonance calculation gives 196.9mH primary inductance: why did it "increase" so much wrt the 76-80mH? There was no shorted coil then.

Thanks for your nice video.

Gyula

ramset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #228 on: October 05, 2011, 12:07:40 AM »
HHHMMmmmmm
Yah Know I been meanin to go to church a bit More.......
I have such Fond Mamories ....
I see they changed the dress code?

Chet
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 12:32:30 AM by ramset »

gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #229 on: October 05, 2011, 05:01:03 AM »
Hi Luc,

So far I forgot to think of the effect of a shorted coil in case of these transformer tests you have been doing.  Normally a shorted coil or heavily loaded coil reduces all the other coils self inductances on the transformer because of the counter-flux (Lenz law).
You can test this with your L meter connected to say the primary and short the MOT secondary, you may have to see the primary 76-80mH normal inductance value drops to the 10-12mH range (if you indeed measured 76-80mH when the secondary was an open circuit).

A "problem" still seems manifesting in case of the second scope picture you uploaded whereby the f=46.3Hz, 60uF is in parallel with the primary and the secondary is unsorted. In this case the LC resonance calculation gives 196.9mH primary inductance: why did it "increase" so much wrt the 76-80mH? There was no shorted coil then.

Thanks for your nice video.

Gyula

Thanks for the reply Gyula

I hooked up my variable ;D Inductance meter to the Primary and tonight it reads 70mH.
Then I connect the 60uf Cap and it reads (minus) -26mH.
Then I short the Secondary coil and it reads 17.2mH.
Then I remove the Cap and it reads 11mH

So now it is clear why the Capacitance needed to be so high.


Normally a shorted coil or heavily loaded coil reduces all the other coils self inductances on the transformer because of the counter-flux (Lenz law).

Gyula

So if this is Lenz Law happening then where is the Delayed Lenz Effect Overunityguide is talking about?

Also Gyula, would you know why Overunityguide does not see any reason a higher Primary Inductance value would not be any better?... I just can't get my mind around that one.

Thanks for your time

Luc

wings

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #230 on: October 05, 2011, 08:14:00 AM »
Hi Luc,

So far I forgot to think of the effect of a shorted coil in case of these transformer tests you have been doing.  Normally a shorted coil or heavily loaded coil reduces all the other coils self inductances on the transformer because of the counter-flux (Lenz law).
You can test this with your L meter connected to say the primary and short the MOT secondary, you may have to see the primary 76-80mH normal inductance value drops to the 10-12mH range (if you indeed measured 76-80mH when the secondary was an open circuit).

A "problem" still seems manifesting in case of the second scope picture you uploaded whereby the f=46.3Hz, 60uF is in parallel with the primary and the secondary is unsorted. In this case the LC resonance calculation gives 196.9mH primary inductance: why did it "increase" so much wrt the 76-80mH? There was no shorted coil then.

Thanks for your nice video.

Gyula


effect of a short circuit on the secondary:

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/ferrite_transformers.htm

Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #231 on: October 05, 2011, 09:34:25 AM »
So if this is Lenz Law happening then where is the Delayed Lenz Effect Overunityguide is talking about?

Also Gyula, would you know why Overunityguide does not see any reason a higher Primary Inductance value would not be any better?... I just can't get my mind around that

@Luc,

Please lets do some calculation on the MOT experiment. In my calculation of the Lenz Delay video, you can see that we can use L/R.

So in the MOT experiment let assume that we are using: 25H as a secondary coil, with an internal reassurance of 300 Ohms. And that we are using 200 Ohms as a load connected to the secondary coil.

This would give us a delay of: L/R = 25/(300+200) = 50 mSec.
To develop a back EMF of around: 63%

If we are using 950Hz in this case, than one period will take you:
1/F = 1/950 = around: 1mSec.

So when you compare the 50 mSec with the 1 mSec, than you can see where the Lenz Delay is coming from...

And further, the secondary MOT transformer coil also has internal capacitance. So this internal capacitance in combination with the secondary induction will create resonance inside the secondary coil.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #232 on: October 05, 2011, 12:52:19 PM »
And further, the secondary MOT transformer coil also has internal capacitance. So this internal capacitance in combination with the secondary induction will create resonance inside the secondary coil.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

DEAR OUG,

I HAVE ANOTHER JOB FOR YOU FOR WHEN YOU GET BACK FROM YOUR BUSINESS TRIP THIS SATURDAY.  :-*

MAKE A BI-FILAR SERIES CONNECTED SECONDARY COIL FOR YOUR ORIGINAL LENZ DELAY TRANSFORMER SO YOU CAN SHOW HOW THE BI-FILAR WOUND COIL DIFFERS FROM THE HIGH IMPEDANCE SINGLE WIRE WOUND COIL.

CHEERS
T

gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #233 on: October 05, 2011, 02:06:38 PM »
...
I hooked up my variable ;D Inductance meter to the Primary and tonight it reads 70mH.
Then I connect the 60uf Cap and it reads (minus) -26mH.
Then I short the Secondary coil and it reads 17.2mH.
Then I remove the Cap and it reads 11mH

So now it is clear why the Capacitance needed to be so high.

Hi Luc,  thanks for this test, this then explains the difference between my calculations and your measurements.

Quote
So if this is Lenz Law happening then where is the Delayed Lenz Effect Overunityguide is talking about?
 

Please ask him to explain it and also that how could it be utilized in practice for instance in case of a microwave oven transformer. I know he showed the LED lamp test in the video but a much higher power load would be much better to test.  I think the crucial point is how such a setup is connected to the mains:  via what means? so that the power factor should stay near zero to consume reactive power...

Here is an interesting animation to show resistive and reactive power in an AC circuit where you can choose between R, L, C and series RL or series RC components as the loads and see that when (in case of reactive components) they return power towards the mains:
http://www.circuit-magic.com/acpower.htm 

Quote from the link:
"... as the current through an inductor increases from its zero value to its maximum value the field around the inductor builds up to a maximum, and when the current decreases from maximum to zero the field collapses and returns the power to the source. You can see therefore that no power is used up in either case, since the power alternately flows to and from the source."

Quote
Also Gyula, would you know why Overunityguide does not see any reason a higher Primary Inductance value would not be any better?... I just can't get my mind around that one.

Probably he considers using much higher operational frequency for a transformer than 50 or 60 Hz mains frequency and if this is so then a lower inductance primary poses much less drawback in this respect.

Gyula
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 02:56:48 PM by gyulasun »

ramset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #234 on: October 05, 2011, 02:29:01 PM »
Geeezz ,
Poor OUG ,He's like Cindefellah!
Work ,work,Work...........
------------
@Boss
I think we can get you in the movies!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OibqdwHyZxk

You could play one of the good guys    8)  <- {Good Guy]

Chet
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 03:25:00 PM by ramset »

gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #235 on: October 05, 2011, 03:02:13 PM »
effect of a short circuit on the secondary:

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/ferrite_transformers.htm

Hi wings,

thanks, very good link.
qoute from the link:

"Considering our simple transformer model, the effect of a short circuit on the secondary is illustrated below. The short circuit effectively removes the distributed capacitance, the core loss and the primary inductance from the model, leaving only the series resistance and  the leakage inductance."

Gyula


gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #236 on: October 05, 2011, 04:52:07 PM »
@Luc,

Please lets do some calculation on the MOT experiment. In my calculation of the Lenz Delay video, you can see that we can use L/R.

So in the MOT experiment let assume that we are using: 25H as a secondary coil, with an internal reassurance of 300 Ohms. And that we are using 200 Ohms as a load connected to the secondary coil.

This would give us a delay of: L/R = 25/(300+200) = 50 mSec.
To develop a back EMF of around: 63%

If we are using 950Hz in this case, than one period will take you:
1/F = 1/950 = around: 1mSec.

So when you compare the 50 mSec with the 1 mSec, than you can see where the Lenz Delay is coming from...

And further, the secondary MOT transformer coil also has internal capacitance. So this internal capacitance in combination with the secondary induction will create resonance inside the secondary coil.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Thanks Overunityguide for this explanation.
Looking at it from just this angle I can now understand why you have no concern for the Primary Inductance.

I will look into it some more

Luc

Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #237 on: October 05, 2011, 11:30:29 PM »
Correction on my previous post:
In my previous post I wrote: internal assurance of 300 Ohms.

Of course this has to be internal resistance of 300 Ohms.
I am sorry about this, but it has to do something with my stupid auto complete function build into my mobile...

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Oh and Luc, I am glade that now you know what I am talking about...

ffdxshow

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #238 on: October 06, 2011, 07:37:06 AM »
Hi everyone

i'm just lurking around here and read all previous posts. i know it all depends on the impedance of the secondary and the frequency. so what is the best capacitor value that give the best COP?

i'm building one too.

ffdxshow 

gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #239 on: October 06, 2011, 08:04:45 AM »
Hi everyone,

I can now confirm Overunityguide's Delayed Lenz Effect using my H-Bridge AC Circuit which outputs Square Wave AC from what ever DC Voltage I wish. The best part of using a DC source is I can accurately measure the current consumed using my special meter I built for pulse circuits.

Prior when I was using only the output of the Signal Generator and measuring the Current through a Shunt Resistor connected to my Scope I was not getting real current readings at the right Frequency.

With my new setup I can now see the real current and also now see the Lenz Delay is actually starting around 1,000Hz just like Overunityguide. No capacitors needed.

See the new video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNihEux8S1M

Luc