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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 811683 times)

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #210 on: October 03, 2011, 07:35:02 PM »
Hi Thane,

One thing I found good for spark suppression and switching are pressure switch contacts.

http://www.austsun.com.au/overview-1.html
http://www.catskillhouse.us/blog/well-pump-pressure-switch/

Hi DeepCut,

If you have a small motor and put a rubber wheel on it see if you can try to get the magnets up to speed. It might catch, if not you need more power either amps or by adding flywheel.

Offline Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #211 on: October 03, 2011, 11:29:22 PM »

Hey Overunityguide,

Really nice job!

Can you measure the power going to your LEDS?
I am assuming the PF is 1 so just Current and Voltage.

Lets say the power is 1.5 Watts for example.

Hello Thane,

Thank you, I have measured it, and my LED light bulb runs at about: 0.94 Watts by now.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #212 on: October 03, 2011, 11:37:18 PM »
Hi Luc,

When you started the MOT transformer tests with a neon bulb load across the secondary and no capacitor across the primary, you wrote the transformer primary inductance was about 68mH.
Then you started using parallel caps across the primary and gradually came down from the 4-5kHz no cap test to 2.45kHz (C=0.39uF), then to 578Hz (C=6.8uF), then to 250Hz (C=37.4uF) and now to 115Hz (C=165uF).

By checking these data pairs with the resonance formula the primary inductance of the trafo used for these tests comes out as 10.8 to 11.6mH range, this is rather far from the 68-76mH you seem to be aware of you have primaries.

The tuning cap for 60Hz in case of the 68mH primary coil should be around 103.5uF and in case of a 76mH primary coil it would be around 92.6uF.

IF you have got a 11mH primary only (taking this average value from my above calculations), then the needed tuning cap for 60Hz would be around 639.6uF, a huge value indeed. 
So a primary inductance check is in order?

One more thing: why do not you use your 7.5H ferrite core coils for these tests? (just to save you from winding transformer...)

Gyula

Hi everyone,

this is my last update on using Capacitors on the Primary of the MOT.

I did manage to find another 60uf AC Capacitor and I thought I would be able to drop the Frequency down to 60Hz but it's not the case. It only dropped to 100Hz from the previous 115Hz. So imagine how much more Capacitance would take to drop it another 40Hz

The problem with MOT from Canada and the US (120vac) is the Henry value of the Primary. It's way to small compared from the ones from Europe. Overunityguide's last video shows his MOT Primary at 231mH compared to my highest Henry selected Mot at 76mH.
This is probably why he can get the effect as low as 950Hz without capacitors compared to me at 4,800Hz

So I find it's pointless to continue with these 120vac Primary MOT's. I will need to wind my own Transformer to continue the experiments. This will take some time as I have another job to complete.

I will post in a week or so

Luc

Offline Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #213 on: October 03, 2011, 11:47:21 PM »
Hi everyone,

this is my last update on using Capacitors on the Primary of the MOT.

I did manage to find another 60uf AC Capacitor and I thought I would be able to drop the Frequency down to 60Hz but it's not the case. It only dropped to 100Hz from the previous 115Hz. So imagine how much more Capacitance would take to drop it another 40Hz

The problem with MOT from Canada and the US (120vac) is the Henry value of the Primary. It's way to small compared from the ones from Europe. Overunityguide's last video shows his MOT Primary at 231mH compared to my highest Henry selected Mot at 76mH.
This is probably why he can get the effect as low as 950Hz without capacitors compared to me at 4,800Hz

So I find it's pointless to continue with these 120vac Primary MOT's. I will need to wind my own Transformer to continue the experiments. This will take some time as I have another job to complete.

I will post in a week or so

Luc

Hi Luc, I still don't see why you would run your MOT at 50/60Hz. I say this because: the thing which is really important to get a proper Lenz Delay, is a very high impedance coil in combination with a higher frequency. So in your case, I don't see a problem in your low inductance primary coil at all. It is the secondary coil on your MOT which is important. Please see my video about: How to Calculate the Delayed Lenz effect. On my Youtube Channel. Than I think you will understand what I mean...

But for now, I don't want to discourage you.

So please keep up the good work, and with Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #214 on: October 04, 2011, 12:09:16 AM »
Hello Thane,
LED light bulb runs at about: 0.94 Watts by now.

DEAR OUG, PLEASE FILL IN THE ?'s BELOW...

OUTPUT = 0.94 WATTS
INPUT = [(INPUT AMPS) x2] x PRIMARY DC RESISTANCE = ?

EFFICIENCY = OUTPUT / INPUT x100 = ?

NOW IF YOU CHECK THE EFFICIENCY OF YOUR MOT AT 50 HZ, I BET IT WILL BE ABOUT 60 - 70% EFFICIENCY.

YOUR PROCESS CREATES A MOT WHICH IS ?% EFFICIENT...
AND THIS REPRESENTS ? % EFFICIENCY INCREASE JUST BY INCREASING THE FREQUENCY...!

THIS GUY HAS A SIMPLE FREQUENCY GENERATOR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpH0FQTXgX8

MY POINT IS THIS; IF YOUR EFFICIENCY INCREASE PERCENTAGE JUSTIFIES THE ADDED EXPENSE OF ADDING A SIMPLE FREQUENCY MULTIPLIER THEN YOU HAVE A COMMERCIALLY VIABLE PRODUCT WHICH CAN BE ADDED TO MICROWAVE OVENS, MICROWAVE TRANSMITTERS, LIGHTS AND ON AND ON TO REDUCE POWER CONSUMPTION. 10% WOULD BE HUGE! ;) DO YOU GET IT DUDE?

IF THIS IS TRUE PDI's LICENSING COMPANY WILL COMMERCIALIZE IT ON YOUR BEHALF AND PAY YOU FOR IT SO YOU CAN GET A NEW DAY JOB.

IF YOU CAN GET A CHEAP CHINESE MADE MOT TO INCREASE ITS EFFICIENCY BY 10 - 20% AND THIS CAN BE APPLIED TO EVERY CONVENTIONAL TRANSFORMER IN THE WORLD - LIKE RIGHT NOW -THEN WATCH OUT!  8) 

NOW PLEASE GO BACK AND ANSWER THE QUESTIONS ABOVE SO WE CAN DO A PROPER EVALUATION.

THANKS
Thane

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #215 on: October 04, 2011, 01:05:33 AM »
Hi Luc,

When you started the MOT transformer tests with a neon bulb load across the secondary and no capacitor across the primary, you wrote the transformer primary inductance was about 68mH.
Then you started using parallel caps across the primary and gradually came down from the 4-5kHz no cap test to 2.45kHz (C=0.39uF), then to 578Hz (C=6.8uF), then to 250Hz (C=37.4uF) and now to 115Hz (C=165uF).

By checking these data pairs with the resonance formula the primary inductance of the trafo used for these tests comes out as 10.8 to 11.6mH range, this is rather far from the 68-76mH you seem to be aware of you have primaries.

The tuning cap for 60Hz in case of the 68mH primary coil should be around 103.5uF and in case of a 76mH primary coil it would be around 92.6uF.

IF you have got a 11mH primary only (taking this average value from my above calculations), then the needed tuning cap for 60Hz would be around 639.6uF, a huge value indeed. 
So a primary inductance check is in order?

One more thing: why do not you use your 7.5H ferrite core coils for these tests? (just to save you from winding transformer...)

Gyula

Hi Gyula,

thanks for looking over my test data.

I bought my Inductance meter over 2 years ago on eBay from China. I was cheap $18. (delivered). The selector dial doesn't always have a consistent contact so the readings vary a little. I rechecked it many times and it does seem to be in the 75mH range and I'm quite positive it would not be as low as 10mH range.

Looks like we have something going on in the MOT that a normal LCR Calculator is not able to accurately calculate. My Total Capacitance is 213uF and I can only get down to 100Hz.
It blew me away :o when I added a 60uF Cap and it only dropped by 15Hz.

My data is accurate enough that there cannot be such a difference. Maybe one day we will understand why this is ???

When I said I would have to wind a transformer I meant using the Ferrite Toroid with the 7.5H coil already on it. I guess I'll just wind the Primary over top of the 7.5H coil.
The bonus with a Ferrite would be that it would be more Efficient at higher Frequencies then the Steel Laminations of a MOT.

Please let me know what you think of this.

Thanks for your time

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #216 on: October 04, 2011, 01:44:51 AM »
Hi Luc, I still don't see why you would run your MOT at 50/60Hz. I say this because: the thing which is really important to get a proper Lenz Delay, is a very high impedance coil in combination with a higher frequency. So in your case, I don't see a problem in your low inductance primary coil at all. It is the secondary coil on your MOT which is important. Please see my video about: How to Calculate the Delayed Lenz effect. On my Youtube Channel. Than I think you will understand what I mean...

But for now, I don't want to discourage you.

So please keep up the good work, and with Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Hi Overunityguide,

correct me if I'm wrong but if you had a low 76mH Primary MOT you would not see this possible Lenz Delay Effect by using your low 950Hz Frequency limit since you could not see the effect until you reached 4,800Hz. So how can you say you don't see a problem?

You should also know that a Steel Lamination Transformer do not operate efficiently at such high Frequencies.  So again, how could you say you don't see a problem?

The reason I would like to get this effect using 60Hz Grid Power is I would be able to observe the effect of increased voltage delivered to the Primary and how it effect the Transformer.

Don't you think eliminating your power hog Frequency Controller and connecting to Grid with clean Sine Waves on your Scope would make a more convincing presentation?

Maybe it's just me but I'm not convinced yet of this effect with the information presented. How does everyone else feel?

Yes, I already seen your video "How to Calculate the Delayed Lenz effect"

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #217 on: October 04, 2011, 02:44:08 AM »
It makes sense to want it to operate at 60hz, or 50hz.  ;]

I the case of redesigning a new transformer with additional circuitry, just add a cap to the primary of an existing transformer in the MW. 

So I guess we will find out if it just uses less input to run a MW, or if we have to tone it down a bit due to too much output.

You have been around a while Luc. Your doin the right thing(s).  ;]


Mags

Offline Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #218 on: October 04, 2011, 08:47:06 AM »
Hi Overunityguide,

correct me if I'm wrong but if you had a low 76mH Primary MOT you would not see this possible Lenz Delay Effect by using your low 950Hz Frequency limit since you could not see the effect until you reached 4,800Hz. So how can you say you don't see a problem?

Hello Luc,

Why do you keep going on about your inductance value at your primary coil? In my opinion this value really don't matters. So saying that you need at last 4800 Hz based on your primary inductance value doesn't make sense to me at all. What is your secondary inductance value? Because this is the value what you need to do your calculations on... The primary coil is on case of the MOT only a secondary exciter...  ;)

And of course I agree with you that less components would be better, read eliminating my frequency drive controller. But personally I don't think that the delay is big enough at the low grid frequencies... Because otherwise each microwave oven company should be power factor correcting there primary coils of their MOT transformers..

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Offline Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #219 on: October 04, 2011, 09:01:14 AM »
DEAR OUG, PLEASE FILL IN THE ?'s

THANKS
Thane

Hello Thane,

By now I unfortunately can't answer your questions, because I am on a business trip right now, so I can only do some remote commenting on my mobile device... I will get back on this next saturday.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #220 on: October 04, 2011, 12:17:35 PM »
OUG, Thane,

Can I propose the following measurement procedure to get precise figures on Power Factor and COP:

Attached power vectors include VAR and Watt measurement.
If I am not mistaken, the power meter of OUG should be able to measure VARs as well.
It's important to include VAR measurements to understand the overall picture.

Six situations, depicted in the first graph:
1) Controller only, high frequency (A)
2) Controller only, low frequency (B)
3) MOT connected to controller, no load, low frequency (C)
4) MOT connnected to controller, no load, high frequency (E)
5) MOT connnected to controller, load, low frequency (D)
6) MOT connnected to controller, load, high frequency (F)

A and B are measurements to check the controller power without the MOT connected, B at low frequency, A at high frequency
(I suppose they have different values)
C and D are measurements at low frequency only, C is to check no load power, D is to check power including load
E and F are measurements at high frequency only, E is to check no load power, F is to check power including load

Most important values to understand correctly are E and F.
As you can see in the below depicted example, first picture, F has a lower Watt value as E, due to the reduced Lenz impact, while with C and D no decrease of the Watt value can be observed.

The second illustration indicates possible scenarios for the PF of the MOT at the high frequency situation. F1, F2 and F3 indicate power under load in this example.
(PF < 0 is very unlikely to happen, but necessary for MOT COP > 1)

Just to make everyone aware who watched Overunityguide's Youtube videos sofar:
In none of his measured situations PF < 0 happened, so no COP>1 !!
Nevertheless, great series of demo's.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 07:34:48 PM by teslaalset »

Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #221 on: October 04, 2011, 01:18:31 PM »
Hello Thane,

I will get back on this next saturday.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

DEAR OUG,

IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HAVE THOSE ANSWERS BECAUSE WE HAVE 3000 CONNECTIONS ON LINKEDIN AND ABOUT A THIRD OF THOSE ARE TRANSFORMER COMPANIES. ANOTHER THIRD ARE GENERATOR COMPANIES AND MANY WIND GENERATOR ENGINEERS AS WELL.

MY POINT AGAIN:

IF WE TAKE A CONVENTIONAL WIND GENERATOR DESIGN OPERATING AT 950 HZ AND WE CAN STEP UP THE VOLTAGE TO THE GRID WITH A "OUG DELAYED LENZ TRANSFORMER"

AND THEN ANOTHER "OUG STEP DOWN TRANSFORMER" AT THE POINT OF USE IE THE CONSUMER'S RESIDENCE - THEN WE HAVE A;

COMPLETELY REACTION FREE ELECTRICITY DELIVERY PARADIGM WHERE ONE WIND GENERATOR CAN SUPPLY MANY MORE HOUSES WHICH ARE ALL ONLY BORROWING REACTIVE POWER.

OUG, YOU NEED TO CHECK IF YOUR TRANSFORMER WORKS IN REVERSE AS A STEP DOWN TRANSFORMER ONCE YOU GET BACK FROM YOUR BUSINESS TRIP... :P

EVEN IF IT DOESN'T (STEP DOWN) IT IS STILL POTENTIALLY A VERY VIABLE COMMERCIAL PRODUCT - WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT A COMMERCIAL WIND TURBINE PLACES ITS TRANSFORMER IN A SEALED FIRE PROOF ROOM WITH AIR CONDITIONING AND FIRE SUPRESSION EQUIPMENT AT GREAT EXPENSE ALL BECAUSE OF SECONDARY INDUCED BEMF INCREASING THE PRIMARY CURRENT AND HEATING UP AND EVENTUALLY BURNING UP THE VERY EXPENSIVE TRANSFORMER PRIMARY.  :(

CHEERS
Thane

Offline ramset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #222 on: October 04, 2011, 07:01:00 PM »
Saturday!??
So what are we supposed to do till saturday??
Anybody have some "Cards"?
Maybe we could Play Pee Knuckle ??

Do we even work on Saturday??

Chet

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #223 on: October 04, 2011, 07:29:52 PM »
Hi Luc,

When you started the MOT transformer tests with a neon bulb load across the secondary and no capacitor across the primary, you wrote the transformer primary inductance was about 68mH.
Then you started using parallel caps across the primary and gradually came down from the 4-5kHz no cap test to 2.45kHz (C=0.39uF), then to 578Hz (C=6.8uF), then to 250Hz (C=37.4uF) and now to 115Hz (C=165uF).

By checking these data pairs with the resonance formula the primary inductance of the trafo used for these tests comes out as 10.8 to 11.6mH range, this is rather far from the 68-76mH you seem to be aware of you have primaries.

The tuning cap for 60Hz in case of the 68mH primary coil should be around 103.5uF and in case of a 76mH primary coil it would be around 92.6uF.

IF you have got a 11mH primary only (taking this average value from my above calculations), then the needed tuning cap for 60Hz would be around 639.6uF, a huge value indeed. 
So a primary inductance check is in order?

One more thing: why do not you use your 7.5H ferrite core coils for these tests? (just to save you from winding transformer...)

Gyula

Hi Gyula and anyone interested

I found out why your Resonance Calculations are not working out with the Primary Inductance I gave.

Your Calculations are Correct if you don't have the MOT Secondary under Load. However, as soon as the Secondary is under Load it shifts the Resonating Frequency to a much higher Frequency.
All my prior tests were done with the Secondary under load so this is why we have a difference.

I made a video Demo just for you so you can see what happens. I also attached the Scope shots below.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJcojjksVeU

In all Scope shots Current is Green and Voltage is Yellow

Fist Scope Shot is MOT Primary @46Hz with Secondary Open and No Cap on Primary
Second Scope Shot is MOT Primary @46Hz with Secondary Open and 60uf Cap on Primary
Third Scope Shot is MOT Primary @46Hz with Secondary Shorted and 60uf Cap on Primary
Forth Scope Shot is MOT Primary @195Hz with Secondary Open and No Cap on Primary
Fith Scope Shot is MOT Primary @195Hz with Secondary Open and 60uf Cap on Primary
Sixth Scope Shot is MOT Primary @195Hz with Secondary Shorted and 60uf Cap on Primary

Hope you now understand what is happening. I would also like to know what you think or know is happening. Could this have anything to do with OUG Lenz Delay effect?

Thank you for your time and please feel free to ask me any other experiments you would like me to do.

Also, last nigh I wound a Primary over top of the 7.5H Toroid coil. The New Primary has a 135mH Inductance. I tested it and found nothing unusual form 1Hz to 2MHz. All was Normal Transformer action. So there is something quite different in the MOT that could be caused by the Iron core or the High Impedance Secondary.

Luc

Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #224 on: October 04, 2011, 09:04:08 PM »
.