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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 870156 times)

gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #180 on: September 30, 2011, 04:48:49 PM »
Just a more practical question that bugs me regarding this MOT experiment:
Why is a single LED surviving in this setup up?
I would expect the voltage at the secondary to be a few KVolt if I look at the difference in inductance between primary and secondary impedance.
Probably due to the high resistance of the secondary winding?

Keep in mind that the Input to the Primary is in the 10 to 12 Volts RMS AC range (Signal Generator Output) so the Secondary should also output much less. I would also agree that much power is lost in the High Resistance of the Secondary.

Luc

CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #181 on: September 30, 2011, 05:00:34 PM »
Hi all

Special thank's to Gotoluc for his experiment.
So i tried a replication and it seems to work very well.

I wonder if ,( as it has already been proposed by a user i don't remember the name sorry), we placed an amplificator (for example a HI FI ampli) between the signal generator and the Mot if we could increase the effect and test more power. What do you think ? Any idea Thane ?

Thank's to all for sharing this very interesting stuff.

Good luck at all

Laurent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt9tqQfYpmk

DEAR LAURENT,

GREAT JOB!

CAN YOU REDO YOUR VIDEO BUT EXPAND YOUR SCOPE WINDOW SO WE ONLY SEE 1/2 OF THE SINE WAVE SO WE CAN SEE WHAT THE PHASE SHIFT IS AT 2:23 IN YOUR VIDEO?

ALSO EXPAND THE VOLTS / DIV SO THE LINES ARE STARIGHT UP AND DOWN PLEASE.
I WANT TO SEE IF THE SHORT PRODUCES A 180 DEGREE PHASE SHIFT WITH A ZERO POWER FACTOR SINCE A SHORT IS AN INFINITE PURELY RESISTIVE LOAD?

THEN TRY TO "TUNE" YOUR FREQUENCY TO SEE IF YOU CAN GET 90 DEGREES OUT OF PHASE?

BTW ANYONE MEASURING POWER FACTOR OR PHASE SHIFTS SHOULD ALL BE DOING IT THIS WAY SINCE WE DON'T NEED TO SEE THE TOPS OF THE SINE WAVES.  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThaneCHeins?feature=mhee#p/u/17/5KfwiXJ8apk

CHEERS
T


DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #182 on: September 30, 2011, 05:26:21 PM »
Hi All,

Some good work going on here. Could you please try a 10ohm power resistor for measuring the current. I've been fooled too many times when measuring output with LEDs.

Hi DeepCut,

That is a great setup and can clearly see the current drop. You're right diametric magnets are the way to go one shaft can hold multiple of them, lets say 6, pulse 2 of them and collect off 4.  ;)

gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #183 on: September 30, 2011, 05:30:29 PM »
DEAR LAURENT,

GREAT JOB!

CAN YOU REDO YOUR VIDEO BUT EXPAND YOUR SCOPE WINDOW SO WE ONLY SEE 1/2 OF THE SINE WAVE SO WE CAN SEE WHAT THE PHASE SHIFT IS AT 2:23 IN YOUR VIDEO?

ALSO EXPAND THE VOLTS / DIV SO THE LINES ARE STARIGHT UP AND DOWN PLEASE.
I WANT TO SEE IF THE SHORT PRODUCES A 180 DEGREE PHASE SHIFT WITH A ZERO POWER FACTOR SINCE A SHORT IS AN INFINITE PURELY RESISTIVE LOAD?

THEN TRY TO "TUNE" YOUR FREQUENCY TO SEE IF YOU CAN GET 90 DEGREES OUT OF PHASE?

BTW ANYONE MEASURING POWER FACTOR OR PHASE SHIFTS SHOULD ALL BE DOING IT THIS WAY SINCE WE DON'T NEED TO SEE THE TOPS OF THE SINE WAVES.  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThaneCHeins?feature=mhee#p/u/17/5KfwiXJ8apk

CHEERS
T

Hi Thane,

here are a few more Shots to better see the shift. I tuned to Less current and expanded Volts Division to Max.

First shot is Normal Probe setup on Primary input and Second Shot I Only moved the Voltage probe across the 10 Ohm bulb.

Interesting to see that there is not much Phase Shift on the Primary when the Current is at Minimum but when you see the Second Scope shot with the Voltage Probe connected across the load it is perfect 90 Degrees Shift... or is that 180 Degrees Shift?
Anyways, I think that is what is important!... don't you think?

Luc
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 05:59:18 PM by gotoluc »

gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #184 on: September 30, 2011, 05:44:22 PM »
Hi All,

Could you please try a 10ohm power resistor for measuring the current. I've been fooled too many times when measuring output with LEDs.


Hi DreamThinkBuild,

I also tested with a 10 Ohm Resistor and the result is the same.

Please read my new Posts and you will see

Luc

DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #185 on: September 30, 2011, 06:01:54 PM »
Hi Luc,

I see your new post, good job. Thanks for taking the time to share your results.

CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #186 on: September 30, 2011, 06:16:41 PM »
Hi Thane,

here are a few more Shots to better see the shift. I tuned to Less current and expended Volts Division to Max.

First shot is Normal Probe setup on Primary input and Second Shot I Only moved the Voltage probe across the 10 Ohm bulb.

OKAY IF YOU MOVED YOUR PROBE TO THE 10 OHM LOAD THEN YOU ARE MEASURING THE CURRENT THROUGH THAT LOAD WHICH IS NOT CORRECT.

Anyways, I think that is what is important!... don't you think?
Luc

EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT BUT LET'S JUST TRY TO FOCUS ON JUST PHASE SHIFT FOR NOW.
PLEASE DO THIS:

1) PUT YOUR CURRENT PROBE ACROSS THE SHUNT RESISTOR.
2) PUT YOUR VOLTAGE PROBE ACROSS THE PRIMARY.

3) DO WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO (WITH CAPS AND FREQUENCY) TO GET A 90 DEGREE PHASE SHIFT ON LOAD.

4) SHOW NO LOAD...
5) THEN SHOW ON-LOAD (WITH 90 DEGREE PHASE SHIFT) IE ZERO POWER FACTOR!  8)

6) IF YOU CAN DO #5 WITH REAL POWER THROUGH YOUR LOAD THEN ALL THE POWER IN THE PRIMARY IS REACTIVE IE NO REAL POWER = 0.0 WATTS.

7) EFFICIENCY WOULD EQUAL INFINITY IF YOUR PRIMARY HAD ZERO DC RESISTANCE BUT BECAUSE IT DOES DOES NOT THE HEAT DISSIPATION IS:

I^2 x Rdc

8) NOW IF SOMEONE (ELSE) IS ABLE TO SHOW A NEGATIVE POWER FACTOR I.E. POWER BEING SENT BACK TO THE GRID THEN WE HAVE A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME HERE!  :D

ATTACHED IS THE TEST DATA FROM DR. FUSINA OF DEFENSE RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT CANADA WHO CAME TO OTTAWA UNIVERSITY TO TEST THE BiTT.

HE FREAKED OUT WHEN HE SAW 0.0 POWER FACTOR SO I TOLD HIM TO APPLY A FUDGE FACTOR - WHICH HE DID.

WE HAVE SINCE FOUND OUT THAT THE PF CAN BE NEGATIVE AND I AM HOPING YOU GUYS CAN ALSO VERIFY THAT?

THIS MIGHT HELP ME GET THAT "LAZY" ENGINEER AT PHILLIPS TO MOVE HIS ASS?

CHEERS
T

woopy

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #187 on: September 30, 2011, 06:28:54 PM »
Hi Luc and Thane

thank's for advices

I have redo the video to better see the phase shift.

Hope this is what Thane suggested. But my sig gen is very basic and i cannot tune progressively, so it  is very difficult to to get very fine results. So i tested 2 frequency to get with 150 Hz the max phase shift (something less than 180 degree ) and to get 90 degree with 190 Hz  (the cap value is always 12 micro F).

hope this helps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa7IsQe0jfc

Laurent

gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #188 on: September 30, 2011, 06:58:18 PM »

OKAY IF YOU MOVED YOUR PROBE TO THE 10 OHM LOAD THEN YOU ARE MEASURING THE CURRENT THROUGH THAT LOAD WHICH IS NOT CORRECT.

You are not understanding what I'm doing. Like I said above the First shot is done like you say:
1) PUT YOUR CURRENT PROBE ACROSS THE SHUNT RESISTOR.
2) PUT YOUR VOLTAGE PROBE ACROSS THE PRIMARY.


3) DO WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO (WITH CAPS AND FREQUENCY) TO GET A 90 DEGREE PHASE SHIFT ON LOAD.

As I said above, I tuned to minimum Current draw on the Primary and not to 90 Degrees Phase Shift. I can easily tune to 90 Degrees Phase Shift (ON PRIMARY) but the Current draw will go up. So we have to wonder why is this happening in a MOT?... maybe the Primary does not need to be at 90 Degrees Phase Shift for the Secondary LOAD to not effect it if we are working with a Possible LENZ DELAY.

This is what made me think to probe the Secondary with the Voltage Probe but leaving the current Probe on the Primary and use the Primary's Current Phase Reference and compare it's Phase Reference with the Secondary Phase.

As we can see from the Second Scope Shot they are Exactly 90 Degrees out Phase with each other. So my thought is, who knows what is going on in a MOT under these conditions. if the Secondary is 90 Degrees out of Phase when the Current at the Primary is at MINIMUM then maybe this is where this Puppy is Happy.

Just my way of thinking. I know it is not conventional EE but I don't care as long as the load on the Secondary is not reflected on the Primary I'm Happy ;D

Luc

PS I'll be out for a while

gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #189 on: September 30, 2011, 07:49:59 PM »
Just a more practical question that bugs me regarding this MOT experiment:
Why is a single LED surviving in this setup up?
I would expect the voltage at the secondary to be a few KVolt if I look at the difference in inductance between primary and secondary impedance.
Probably due to the high resistance of the secondary winding?

Yes I think also the DC resistance  (86 Ohm or so in Luc's case) serves also as current limiting 'bias' resistor for the LED. 
We can estimate how big the unloaded secondary voltage could be in its unloaded case.  Consider when normal input is designed 120V AC rms primary input and about 2000V rms secondary output, the ratio is 16.6  so for a 10V rms input the open voltage should be around 166V.
Then there is a voltage divider created whenever you connect a load to the secondary: the upper member of the divider is the coil DC resistance, 86 Ohm and the lower member of the divider is the load itself, when this is a LED or anti-parallel LEDs their dynamic AC resistance can be under 10 Ohm as you pointed out, so the significant part of the 166V is dissipated in the coil resistance and the rest can go only to the load.

This latter is an answer also to Luc why he did not see any light from the 12V car bulb: simply the divided voltage is not enough to light it. When I suggested to Luc to use low value resistors as loads I forgot to consider the rather high secondary coil resistance in this case. 
Perhaps a LED lamp of a few Watts designed for normal 120V AC mains could be used? But the output power from the signal generator is limited to half or 1W or so? (its output impedance surely is 50 Ohm).

Gyula

gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #190 on: September 30, 2011, 08:09:46 PM »
Hi Gyula,

I did this last night. I used a light bulb that the Secondary could not light and the result is the same.

Here is the scope shot with an unlit 12v auto bulb measuring 10 Ohm's as load on Secondary and the next scope shot I moved the Voltage Probe (Yellow) across the bulb.

Luc

Thanks Luc,  this confirms the voltage divider is in full action and I answered this to you in my above post. 

gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #191 on: October 01, 2011, 02:53:25 AM »
Hi everyone,

I pickup my Two 60uf AC Capacitors from storage but unfortunately it is not enough to drop the Primary Resonant Frequency down to 60Hz.

Using all the AC Capacitors I now have and connecting them in Parallel I have 165uf.
With this 165uf connected to the primary it will Resonate @115Hz.

The good news is the Transformer still shows the same results.
@115Hz with 10 Ohm Bulb Load on Secondary and 165uf Capacitor on Primary it uses the same amount of current as just the transformer idling @115Hz with no Load on Secondary and no Capacitor on Primary. So this is good.

Also, an extra bonus is @115Hz the Voltage across the 10 Ohm Bulb is now up to 1.90 Volts RMS compared to @250Hz the 10 Ohm Bulb was at 0.62 Volts RMS. Things are looking better as the Frequency is dropping.

I'm just going to need around or over 200uF of AC Capacitance to get this Mot down to the 60Hz range. Then I'll be able to hook this puppy to Grid Power and see what happens ;D

Below are the 115Hz Scope shots: Green is Primary Current and Yellow is Voltage

First Scope Shot: @115Hz with no Load on Secondary and no Capacitor on Primary (transformer idling)

Second Scope Shot: @115Hz with 10 Ohm Bulb Load on Secondary and 165uf Capacitor on Primary

Third Scope Shot: @115Hz with 10 Ohm bulb Load on Secondary and 165uf Capacitor on Primary but with Yellow Probe across Bulb

I will try to find some more AC Capacitors and post the results

Stay tuned

Luc
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 05:13:16 AM by gotoluc »

Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #192 on: October 01, 2011, 03:17:53 AM »
Hey Luc

Good stuff.  ;]

About hooking it up to the grid(wall current)

Have you ever done this? Without the cap its dangerous.

Just checking.  ;]

Mags

gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #193 on: October 01, 2011, 04:59:09 AM »
Hey Luc

Good stuff.  ;]

About hooking it up to the grid(wall current)

Have you ever done this? Without the cap its dangerous.

Just checking.  ;]

Mags

Hey Mags,

not to worry :o... once I have it tuned to 60Hz I'll use my Variac and slowly bring her to life ;)

Thanks for your post and concern

Luc

CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #194 on: October 01, 2011, 11:09:32 AM »
Quote
Hi everyone,

The good news is the Transformer still shows the same results.
@115Hz with 10 Ohm Bulb Load on Secondary and 165uf Capacitor on Primary it uses the same amount of current as just the transformer idling @115Hz with no Load on Secondary and no Capacitor on Primary. So this is good.

THIS IS NOT DELAYED LENZ EFFECT - THIS IS SOMETHING ELSE WHICH MAY BE USEFUL BUT AT 4:45 AM I CAN'T COME UP WITH A GOOD NAME  :P

Quote
Below are the 115Hz Scope shots: Green is Primary Current and Yellow is Voltage

First Scope Shot: @115Hz with no Load on Secondary and no Capacitor on Primary (transformer idling)

YOU CAN SEE THAT THE QUALITY OF THIS TRANSFORMER IS NOT VERY GOOD BECAUSE EVEN ON IDLE TO PF IS NOT 0.

Quote
Second Scope Shot: @115Hz with 10 Ohm Bulb Load on Secondary and 165uf Capacitor on Primary

THIS IS NORMAL TRANSFORMER OPERATION NOW... LOAD PF IS BEING TRANSFERRED BACK TO SECONDARY AND THEN TO PRIMARY. HOWEVER THE PRIMARY IMPEDANCE HAS NOT BEEN LOWERED DUE TO THE CAP SO THE PRIMARY CURRENT DOES NOT INCREASE (APPARENTLY).

Quote
Third Scope Shot: @115Hz with 10 Ohm bulb Load on Secondary and 165uf Capacitor on Primary but with Yellow Probe across Bulb

NOW YOU ARE MEASURING THE PF ACROSS A SHUNT, PF = 1 AND A LIGHT BULB, PF = 1.
YOU REALLY NEED A 4 CHANNEL SCOPE SO YOU CAN SEE EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING ON HERE.

PERHAPS YOU CAN COME OVER TO MY PLACE NEXT WEEK AND WE CAN PUT YOUR SETUP ON MY 4 CHANNEL SCOPE AND YOU CAN HELP ME GET MY MOTOR WORKING?  :-\ ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SAIL UP THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER.

Quote
I will try to find some more AC Capacitors and post the results

Stay tuned

Luc

STAY "TUNED" ACTUALLY MEANS TO KEEP RESONATING (AT THE SAME VIBRATIONAL FREQUENCY)
OR KEEP "RECEIVING" COMMUNICATIONS
AND WE ARE ONLY WILLING TO "ACCEPT" INFORMATION THAT RESONATES WITH US (ACTUALLY THAT WHICH RESONATES WITH OUR SOUL).
THAT IS PROBABLY WHY MOST OF US ARE HERE - WE WOULDN'T BE HERE IF WE COULDN'T HEAR THE PRIMARY MESSAGE OF WANTING TO CREATE A BETTER WORLD.  8)

SORRY I JUST THOUGHT THAT "STAY TUNED" STATEMENT WAS INTERESTING.

CHEERS
T