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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 811660 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #135 on: September 26, 2011, 05:08:05 PM »
It must be in the several Henry range.  A google search brought this:
primary L=68.2mH 
HV secondary L=15.5H
(from this link: http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.electronics.cad/2008-02/msg00082.html )

Maybe the laminations could work up to some hundred Hz for the older type transformers (nowadays there are ovens with switch-mode power supply to get the HV too).

Cheers,  Gyula

PS: just recall this pdf file member poynt99 uploaded that includes info on oven transformer, page 17:
Primary: R= 0.35 Ohms; L= 44.4mH
Secondary: R= 88 Ohms; L= 19.3H
(from this: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=209 )

Hi Gyula,

I have a Microwave oven transformer and the Primary is 69mH and Secondary is not measurable since my Inductance meter can measure 20H max, so it must be just a little over 20H.

I'll give it a try with my Signal Generator to see if I can find a frequency that the load is not reflected to the Primary.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2011, 07:08:17 PM »
Hi everyone,

here is a video demo of a possible Delayed Lenz Effect with attached scope shots below.

A Microwave Oven Transformer Primary is connected to the output of my Signal Generator. The Primary of this Transformer is 69mH and the Secondary is around 21H. I tested the Secondary in three different conditions, not connected (open circuit), connected to a Neon bulb and Short circuited.

First scope shot is MOT with no Load on Secondary
Second scope shot is MOT with Neon Bulb Load on Secondary
Third scope shot is MOT with Secondary Shorted

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne-wJqZVDvs

Please post your comments please

Luc
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 05:12:56 AM by gotoluc »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #137 on: September 27, 2011, 12:05:32 AM »
Hey Luc

Good show.  ;]   Seems like the freq is high for 20h.  Maybe try a 1uf or .5uf cap across the sec to lower the freq.  Marius and I have seen more power out when using a cap in series with a load. Larger cap, lower freq.

Its very cool that the mot works here as many seem to have them, or can be had easily, and can get to work on these ideas. ;]

Mags

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #138 on: September 27, 2011, 12:16:55 AM »
Hi Gyula,

I had to pickup my Digital Caliper from storage to re-check the diameter of the wire. It is actually 0.50 mm with enamel coating. The DC resistance is correct @ 4.4 Ohms so you should be able to figure out the wire length and approximate amount of turns.

Let me know if something does not look right.

Thanks for your time

Luc

Well, the 4.4 Ohm coil made from 0.5mm OD copper wire has a wire length of about 49 meter.  This has a better chance to fill onto that core. Using the Mini Ring core calculator, for such sized toroid core 142 turns gives a full single layer coil directly on the surface from the 0.5mm OD wire and alltogether roughly 5 to 5.7 times more layers above the first one could give the 811 turns needed for the 7.5 Henry inductance.
( http://www.dl5swb.de/html/mini_ring_core_calculator.htm )

Gyula

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #139 on: September 27, 2011, 04:43:28 AM »
Hey Luc

Good show.  ;]   Seems like the freq is high for 20h.  Maybe try a 1uf or .5uf cap across the sec to lower the freq.  Marius and I have seen more power out when using a cap in series with a load. Larger cap, lower freq.

Its very cool that the mot works here as many seem to have them, or can be had easily, and can get to work on these ideas. ;]

Mags

Hi Mags,

I actually can get the delayed Lenz effect at 900Hz or even lower using a MOT but when I would change the load on the Secondary like I did in the video demo (no load, Neon bulb then shorted) Lenz would appear in one of the condition if I didn't re-adjust the Frequency. Maybe that's why Overunityguide did not demonstrate a short in his Transformer video. However, I found that at 4.9kHz it had no effect what so ever on the primary with what ever I did to the Secondary, so I decide to used that Frequency to make the video demo simple.

I will be experimenting with capacitors but that will be to get the Primary into Resonance and hopefully at a Frequency the Secondary will have Lenz delay. Should be cool 8) when that happens ;D

Luc
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 05:18:03 AM by gotoluc »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #140 on: September 27, 2011, 04:58:50 AM »
Well, the 4.4 Ohm coil made from 0.5mm OD copper wire has a wire length of about 49 meter.  This has a better chance to fill onto that core. Using the Mini Ring core calculator, for such sized toroid core 142 turns gives a full single layer coil directly on the surface from the 0.5mm OD wire and alltogether roughly 5 to 5.7 times more layers above the first one could give the 811 turns needed for the 7.5 Henry inductance.
( http://www.dl5swb.de/html/mini_ring_core_calculator.htm )

Gyula

Thanks Gyula,

that sounds about right now. All I remember is it took a long time to wind that one by hand :P

Thanks for sharing the calculator link

So what do you think about this Lenz delay?... do you think this could lead to OU?

Luc

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #141 on: September 27, 2011, 12:15:56 PM »
...
So what do you think about this Lenz delay?... do you think this could lead to OU?
...

Hi Luc,

I do not know the answer... 
I can only comment a few things. In case of the unloaded / loaded (lamp) tests, there is a few degree phase shift (10-15°) happening between the input voltage and current, while in the shorted / unshorted secondary tests the phase shift increases to 80-85° between the input voltage and current. The amplitudes of the current and voltage change but a very little or quasi nothing as you also noticed in the video. This is what the scopeshots show.
One problem is that the core material is probably a normal laminated core designed for the 50 / 60 Hz mains frequency and its behavior at 4-5 kHz range is rather questionable (thinking of core losses that may influence the whole transformer behavior, phase shifts etc). 
I assume this core 'problem' (at least I consider it as a negative factor) would not manifest too much in case of your toroidal core with the 7.5H coil on it, maybe it would be worth testing it at even higher frequencies. Then we shall see... though it might be still unprobable I can give you a correct answer to your above question...

Gyula

Offline Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #142 on: September 27, 2011, 10:33:16 PM »
First scope shot is MOT with no Load on Secondary
Second scope shot is MOT with Neon Bulb Load on Secondary
Third scope shot is MOT with Secondary Shorted
Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne-wJqZVDvs

@gotoluc
That is Great. 8.82V on No Load conditions and 9.45V while Shorting...

Keep up the good work.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Transformer Part 2, the Delayed Lenz Effect with Scope Shots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiRV1SUsgc

Offline ramset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #143 on: September 28, 2011, 01:45:45 PM »

Offline nilrehob

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #144 on: September 28, 2011, 08:29:39 PM »
Bi-filar wound series connected generator coils increase coil capacitance by 200% or more...

Hi Thane,

Are you sure about this?
Some time ago I did a comparison by using a newly bought inductance-meter and i couldn't see any difference.
Then i tried to do a calculation on the difference on the stored electric energy within a coil, and my conclusion was that a normally wound coil would store more electric energy because of its relation to the square of the voltage and since the voltage difference between the layers are linear in a normal coil and constant in a bifilar coil?
Its obvious that I have to redo some testing and thinking on this stuff.

Maybe You could elaborate on this?

/Hob

Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #145 on: September 29, 2011, 03:29:00 AM »
A sincere man / experimenter asking for Help
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8683-bitoroid-transformer-project-platform.html
Chet

HEY CHET,

PLEASE DEFINE "SINCERE" - IS THAT A NEW CONCEPT?  :-X

AT ANY RATE I ALREADY SPOKE TO THAT CHAP (PLEASE SEE BELOW).
I THINK HIS PROBLEM IS HIS CORE CHOICE.

CHEERS
T


Dear Rayongerbil,

Really nice work!
Try to focus on just two things at this point;

1)
Getting a NEUTRAL reaction in your Primary when the two Secondaries are placed On-Load. Or even a current drop as Overunityguide has shown.

2)
Getting a NEUTRAL Power Factor SHIFT from No-Load to On-Load.

If you don't have a scope then you can deduce a PF drop if your current drops from No-Load to On-Load.

Also I would try to stick with just AC IN with pure resistive loads at your earlyish stage.
This is the worst case for a Secondary load and should show the most reaction in your Primary if there is any...

Congratulations on your work!
BTW if you aren't going to speak can we get annotations at least so we (the viewer) don't have to make assumptions about what is going on?

Cheers
Thane

Subject: BiToroid Replication
Date: 09/27/11

Message: This is my replication of your transformer technology utilizing black iron oxide primary core insulation and er70s mig welding wire cores. Dual 555 pulsewidth modulator, 20ohms into primary and 20ohms on load. The iron oxide is not letting a whole lot through... it seems to need an upgrade.

Primary - 5.3mH, 1.8ohm
Secondaries - 4.2mH, 2.1ohm

Secondary coils connected in parallel onto fullwave bridge with 470uf el capacitor.


Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #146 on: September 29, 2011, 03:49:32 AM »
Hi Thane,

Are you sure about this?
Some time ago I did a comparison by using a newly bought inductance-meter and i couldn't see any difference.Its obvious that I have to redo some testing and thinking on this stuff.
Maybe You could elaborate on this?

/Hob

DEAR HOB,

RULE #1 - DON'T THINK!

RULE #2 - DON'T MAKE ANY ASSUMPTIONS, PRE-CALCULATIONS, HYPOTHESISING
THIS WILL ONLY SEND YOU DOWN THE WRONG PATH.

RULE #3 - JUST DO...
BASE EVERYTHING ON EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE - STUFF YOU CAN SEE RIGHT BEFORE YOUR EYES.
LET THE MATH AND METERING SORT ITSELF OUT LATER ON.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THIS. THE COILS IN THIS PUPPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_wleUlcMK0 USES 3 OHM COILS AND THEY BEGIN TO CAUSE ACCELERATION AT ABOUT 500 RPM WHEN SHORTED.

WHEN I STARTED OUT WE USED COILS JUST LIKE OVERUNITY USES BIG ASS 150 - 300 OHMERS. BUT THEY WERE NOT REALISTIC AT PRODUCING POWER - NOW WE SACRIFICE A LITTLE ACCELERATION FOR MORE ELECTRICAL POWER FOR THE "REAL" WORLD.

RULE #4 DON'T GO INTO THE BOARDS AGAINST A SWEDE!  :P

CHEERS
T


Offline Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #147 on: September 29, 2011, 09:25:53 AM »
Hi Thane,
Are you sure about this?
Some time ago I did a comparison by using a newly bought inductance-meter and i couldn't see any difference.Its obvious that I have to redo some testing and thinking on this stuff.
Maybe You could elaborate on this?
/Hob

@nilrehob about Bi-Filar coils:

Please read the information in the document in the link provided below...
In this document you will find: a Special Case of Voltage Gain in Bi-Filar coils, which shows the differences between only measuring the inductance and then calculate the voltage gain and between hooking up the same coil to a good Network Analyzer... It shows a gain of 929.3% !

So nilrehob please have a look at the following document, and forget your LCR metered values!

http://www.hvlabs.hu/zpe/Gruz/forum_matrix.ru/5/VOLTGN.pdf

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Offline nilrehob

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #148 on: September 29, 2011, 09:42:00 AM »
Thane & Overunityguide,
Thanks, I'll look into it agan, different angle this time!

/Hob

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #149 on: September 29, 2011, 03:46:42 PM »
Thane & Overunityguide,
Thanks, I'll look into it agan, different angle this time!

/Hob

Nilrehob,

Another thing to keep in mind is how to actually connect a bifilar coil.
This can be done in a few different ways.
For maximum capacity one should use the 'tesla coil way'.
I described this elsewhere : http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11009.75 , reply #88
You can see the estimated increase in capacitance is hugely dependant on the way a bifilar coil is actually 'wired', especially when there is a significant number of windings.

p.s. this is not meant as a pancake coil only. It is applicable for any wired coil.