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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 756431 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #945 on: April 11, 2013, 12:13:38 AM »
....
Attached is the circuit I am testing (not finished yet, attention, might not work) and the set up (still without the two Hall sensors).
...

Hi Conrad,

Would like to suggest connecting one-one resistor between each Hall device output and the positive rail, like a pull-up resistor, value may be anything in the some kOhm range like 4.7 kOhm to 10 kOhm. These identical resistors would be needed for discharging the p-channel MOSFETs paralleled gate-source capacitance, because there is nothing shown in the schematic to do that.  The Hall devices have an nmos open drain output with a clamping 30V Zener diode in reverse direction to defend the device, so the output pin cannot discharge the inherent gate-source capacitors of the switching MOSFETs. the switch-off time may become very uncertain or even impossible.

One more thing: to make your pulse motor more efficient, you may wish to consider using the magnetic poles at both ends of your relay coil, it would cost input-power-wise the same but  the output torque would increase.  To do this, try to look for low profile relay coils, maybe around max. 1 cm in length only and use two of them: one coil as is shown now at the 9 o'clock position and the other one at the opposite side of the magnet at the 3 o'clock position.  And you would need a C core to connect the outer ends of the relay coils to have a horse shoe like core with the two coils strongly attached magnetically to it at the endings. 
I know that 12V DC relay coils normally have some hundred Ohms coil resistance and this may prove to be high to cause power loss if you consider collecting the energy of the collapsing field at switch-offs.  There are relays operating with 5V DC and these can have coil resistances in the 40 - 70 Ohm range, making less loss, and using two such in series connection to switch them on or off at the same time as if they were a single coil you could use the same switching circuit.  OF course  each of the poles of these coils at the prongs of the C core should be chosen correctly to function as needed for the diametric magnet poles in every moment.

rgds, Gyula

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #946 on: April 11, 2013, 09:53:22 AM »
Hi Conrad,

Would like to suggest connecting one-one resistor between each Hall device output and the positive rail, like a pull-up resistor, value may be anything in the some kOhm range like 4.7 kOhm to 10 kOhm.

One more thing: to make your pulse motor more efficient, you may wish to consider using the magnetic poles at both ends of your relay coil, it would cost input-power-wise the same but  the output torque would increase.

There are relays operating with 5V DC and these can have coil resistances in the 40 - 70 Ohm range, making less loss, and using two such in series connection to switch them on or off at the same time as if they were a single coil you could use the same switching circuit.

rgds, Gyula

@Gyula:
 
Thank you for the good advice, that helps a lot.
 
I would like to ask you, whether you know some good P-channel Mosfets which could be useful for this circuit. The P-channel AUIRF9Z34N seems to be an overkill (can switch a heavy current). I think one could use smaller ones , e.g. for switching only up to 1 Ampere. (N-channel Mosfets would need additional transistors, because the Hall sensor switches from High to Low when activated.)
 
I have 90 Ohm DC resistance coils from some other relais and will try them as well.
 
The "horse shoe like core with two coils" is also a very good idea. I have to think about this, because the space around the spinning ring magnet is limited in my set up . Once the magnet is spinning (heopefully very fast) I want to place various generator coils near it to test for DLE (reduced drag and speed increase). Horse shoe + two drive coils + two Hall sensors, where does the generator coil go?
 
In version two of this spinner I will leave more space around the ring magnet (also below the axle). At the moment I am testing various placements of the Hall sensors. (They should never switch on at the same time. Duration of "on time" is critical for power consumption.)
 
I have got 10 very good bearings (with ceramic balls) and a collection of diametrically magnetised ring magnets, so I can build several versions. I am thinking about an even smaller rotor (10 mm diameter ring magnet) because theoretically it could spin faster than a bigger one.
 
Greetings, Conrad

Offline DeepCut

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #947 on: April 11, 2013, 04:44:15 PM »
New coil has no effect on rotor speed when shorted.

It also accelerates when used as an air core.

All of the details are in the infobox of the video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9X7tqNCZqM


Cheers,

DC.


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #948 on: April 11, 2013, 06:44:39 PM »
New coil has no effect on rotor speed when shorted.
It also accelerates when used as an air core.
All of the details are in the infobox of the video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9X7tqNCZqM
Cheers,
DC.

Nice speed! I get the impression that the effect (no drag, speed up) can be produced with any coil as long as the magnet spins fast enough?

(My set up is not finished, many other chores hold me up.)

Greetings, Conrad

Offline DeepCut

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #949 on: April 11, 2013, 07:04:14 PM »
Nice speed! I get the impression that the effect (no drag, speed up) can be produced with any coil as long as the magnet spins fast enough?

(My set up is not finished, many other chores hold me up.)

Greetings, Conrad

I think not any coil, but any coil of many turns.

Capacitance seems to be the key, as we drive an inductor at higher frequencies it behaves more like a capacitor.

The last time i wound a coil of this size it didn't perform so well due to it's inductance, which is also governed by it's physical dimensions not just the number of turns, but it put out 1,100 VAC. It gave me a terrible electric shock when i mishandled it, right across my chest and made me yelp !

I want to see how it does when i step down the voltage, if that works then the next step is multiple coils.

Unfortunately it costs me around £40 to make the coil!


All the best,

DC.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #950 on: April 11, 2013, 07:47:53 PM »
New coil has no effect on rotor speed when shorted.

It also accelerates when used as an air core.

All of the details are in the infobox of the video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9X7tqNCZqM


Cheers,

DC.

Hi DC,

great job on the new coil!

Could you do some power measurements using a 1, 10 and or 100 ohm resistor instead of just a short. It would be nice to see the max power output you can get from your new coil (with and without core) while keeping the input current rise to a minimum.

Thanks for your great research and sharing your results.

Luc

Offline DeepCut

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #951 on: April 11, 2013, 08:11:27 PM »
Hi DC,

great job on the new coil!

Could you do some power measurements using a 1, 10 and or 100 ohm resistor instead of just a short. It would be nice to see the max power output you can get from your new coil (with and without core) while keeping the input current rise to a minimum.

Thanks for your great research and sharing your results.

Luc

Thanks Luc :)

I will have to wait until my gf goes to bed (10pm UK time) because it's a loud, high-pitched whine.

Jean-Louis was surprised by the aircore result, he was sure the effect was due to viscous remanent magnetisation.

He says he will do some aircore testing soon, i can't wait to see tests done with his superior hardware :)


Thanks for your encouragement and suggestions,

DC.

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #952 on: April 11, 2013, 09:37:17 PM »
First spin:

I could do a first test of my set up. Only one Hall sensor and a 2N6111 transistor.

See the attached drive circuit. Just a test of how fast the ring magnet spins:

15 V supply Voltage --> 17 mA average power draw, ~ 0.25 Watt, about 60 Hz (3600 rpm)

18 V supply Voltage -->  22 mA average power draw, ~ 0.4 Watt,  about 80 Hz (4800 rpm)

Now I will proceed to a transistor H-bridge and two Hall sensors (thanks to Gyula it might even work).

I might need a coil with less windings (higher power draw) to reach a really high speed.

Greetings, Conrad


Offline DeepCut

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #953 on: April 11, 2013, 09:43:39 PM »
OK i couldn't wait so i moved the setup into the kitchen for load-testing.

I put the output through the FWBR.

Measuring the FWBR output using a DMM with no load i get 120 VDC.

Using an analogue ammeter, i tested a 10 Ohm load.

This gave me just over 9mA.

Measuring the voltage gave me zero volts !

Testing the 100 ohm resistor gave me just over 9mA.

Measuring the voltage gave me zero volts !

So i took the ammeter out of the loop to test the voltage straight off the FWBR and got 120 VDC again.

I have triple checked the resistors, the 10 ohm is 9.6 and the 100 ohm is 99.8.

I tried some real loads, three different incandescent light bulbs.

One is 240V, one is 12V and the other 6V.

Again, zero voltage is being measured.

I checked the multimeter against some new batteries and it is spot on.

I'm not well-versed at all in power measurement but i know how to rectify, put a load across the rectifier, measure amps in series and voltage in parallel.


Any help greatly appreciated,

DC.



Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #954 on: April 11, 2013, 09:48:52 PM »
Nice speed! I get the impression that the effect (no drag, speed up) can be produced with any coil as long as the magnet spins fast enough?

(My set up is not finished, many other chores hold me up.)

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad, A coil of many turns is not required, I got acceleration under load and short circuit using
a small coil of 270 turns with 7 mH and only 0.8 Ohms resistance.

I simply used the correct amount of capacitance so that the unloaded coil presented a fairly large Lenz drag
to the motor, then when the load is added or the output shorted the Lenz drag is reduced and so the motor speeds up the rotor.
There may be some resonant kick back to the rotor, but mainly it speeds up because the actual load is reduced by adding the
electrical load or short circuit.

Look at the scope shots.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFWin-crxQY

By winding many turns the resonant frequency of the coil is reduced into the range of operation of the motor generator, without adding a capacitor, same effect
but my way has less resistance.

If the effect is so unique and unusual, then how come i can do it with the small coil I used and how come i can do the transformer thing as well.

It is a frequency induced restriction of the maximum current and a reduction in Lenz drag when a load is added.

The "prime mover" I used was a universal motor powered by DC from a boost converter, the motor was designed for 240 volts but I used only 20 to 35 volts.  ;)

We can see the effect is obvious with resonant systems. The electrical load reduces the total system loading by altering the parameters of the
circuit. The load on the supply is reduced, that is why the rotor speeds up when it is a generator and why the input reduces with a transformer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRzQ_CO9vnw

Here's more with a regular transformer.

Input reduction under load effects ect..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxde9qga79c

Same transformer lighting a globe efficiently with full rated voltage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pzqxQwxVGA

This is a normal effect, i see no reason why it shouldn't happen if the conditions are made to allow it to happen.

Normal generators/transformers are designed to be efficient and power loads when they are added with full voltage and power,
so they don't show the effects of a poorly designed and used generator or transformer.

All reactive power is just applied power not yet used, it doesn't come from anywhere but the supply.

Cheers


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #955 on: April 11, 2013, 09:56:59 PM »
Progress:

By moving the coil further away from the ring magnet I could increase the speed.

12 V -->  18 mA , ~ 0.22 Watt,    84 Hz (~ 5000 rpm)

15 V -->  21 mA,  ~ 0.32 Watt,  110 Hz (~ 6600 rpm)

18 V -->  23 mA,  ,  ~ 0.42 Watt,  121 Hz (~ 7200 rpm)

An other hole is needed in the base plate in order to move the coil even further away. Has to wait till tomorrow.

Good night, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #956 on: April 11, 2013, 10:05:29 PM »
@Farmhand: Thank you for the explanation. I will take that into consideration.

What is your opinion about pancake coils or a stack of pancake coils as a pick up or generator coil? Would that may be exhibit some interesting strangeness?

I just like to build little motors that spin rapidly (must be the child in me). My knowledge of electronics is very little, therefore I am not really expecting to discover OU. It is just a hobby.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline DeepCut

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #957 on: April 11, 2013, 10:11:11 PM »
@Farmhand: Thank you for the explanation. I will take that into consideration.

What is your opinion about pancake coils or a stack of pancake coils as a pick up or generator coil? Would that may be exhibit some interesting strangeness?

I just like to build little motors that spin rapidly (must be the child in me). My knowledge of electronics is very little, therefore I am not really expecting to discover OU. It is just a hobby.

Greetings, Conrad

Nice build Conrad :)

Even if i multiply your RPM by 10 to be around my 40KRPM, you would still be using a lot less power than my setup.


All the best,

DC.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #958 on: April 11, 2013, 10:33:57 PM »
Hi Conrad,

Here are some p-channel MOSFET types, I used Farnell but if you have a local cheaper source for those types, you could order from it of course. By the way, I think at least a 3-5 Amper drain current rated type is to be preffered versus the only 1A or so types because in case you lower the coils DC resistance, you do not have to change the MOSFETs. I think that even the 40-80 Ohm relay coils still cause losses but at least they are ready made and you do not have to wind them for the tests. Another factor is the drain-source voltage rating due to the voltage spikes at the coils switch-off times, even the 100V ratings may be a bad choice, at least the 200V rating is preferred, albeit the two MOSFETs are in series from the coil point of view, so their voltage ratings also add up.
http://uk.farnell.com/international-rectifier/irf9630pbf/transistor-mosfet-polarity-p/dp/1653665 (200V/6.5A 0.8 Ohm)
http://uk.farnell.com/infineon/spd04p10pl-g/mosfet-p-ch-100v-4-2a-to252-3/dp/2212868   (100V/4.2A 0.55 Ohm)
http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/zxmp10a18ktc/mosfet-p-ch-100v-3-8a-dpak/dp/1843773RL  (100V/3.8A 0.15 Ohm)

"Horse shoe + two drive coils + two Hall sensors, where does the generator coil go?"
 
Well, the simplest (perhaps) would be to use a longer shaft (or two shafts in line tied together, this would involve one more ball bearing at least) on which two ring magnets could be fixed: one is for the motor, the other is for the generator. More about this tomorrow.




Hi Deepcut,

The explanation is coil inductive reactance, that is which limits your output power. To understand this better, you have an 1.2 Henry coil (when aircored) with a 166 Ohm DC wire resistance. This gives a 2Pi*f*L inductive reactance, f is the frequency depending on the RPM. Say, with 600 Hz, this gives 6.28*600*1.2=4520 Ohm.  With a core, this is rougly 4 times as many, cca 18 kOhm.
So your coil behaves as a generator with an unloaded output voltage, 120V when rectified and unfiltered, and which has at least a 4.5 kOhm inner impedance. If you connect a 10 Ohm, 100 Ohm resistor across this coil, then you have a voltage divider whereby the AC equivalent of the DC 120V feeds at least a 4.5 kOhm coil impedance and the load resistor in series, what remains across the load is very low, allmost all the induced power  is wasted in the coil. 
You may use a step down transformer directly at the coil output but off the shelf mains transformers made for 50 Hz mains frequency may introduce losses at the 400-600 Hz frequency range.
Another possibility is to tune out the inductive reactance with an identical capacitive reactance and there remains the coil winding resistance which will give the generator output resistance, 166 Ohm but this would be valid at and near to a single RPM frequency.

Gyula

Offline DeepCut

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #959 on: April 11, 2013, 10:59:58 PM »
Thanks Gyula, that makes it all clear.

And thanks FarmHand, food for thought.


All the best,

DC.