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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 688578 times)

Offline toranarod

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2011, 10:45:10 PM »
Ok, I had a look at Toranarod's data.
Yes, indeed he seems to have higher RPM with a generator coil, compared to the situation without generator coil.
However there is also a motor coil present.
Unfortunately he did not monitor (or post) the data on the motor coil.
The used power of the motor coil is also relevant for solid evaluation.
So, incomplete data unfortunately. Still no proof of concept.

For some reason I can't post messages on EF although I have a valid account.
Can somebody post a question to Toranarod to provide also the input power of the motor coil, to complete his table?

Hello

I am using a separate drive motor. It became very obvious Romero was right about a few things.
One point he made was don't worry about the drive just use a good motor.




   the work on the acceleration of the generator coils is where the research is up to at the momment.

the out runner in the photo can provide 2000 RPM at 300 Mil Amps  or 8200 RPM at 3.5 amps its very versatile. I recommend giving it a try it has helped me a lot with this work   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2011, 10:45:10 PM »

Offline Overunityguide

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2011, 10:49:22 PM »
Hi You All,

Today one YouTube User has asked me to Replace my LED Load with a normal Resistive Incandescent Light Bulb. So this is what I have done.

Here is my Video About this Subject:
Negative Lenz / Delayed Lenz Effect with an Incandescent Light Bulb as a Load
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kluw71YC5p4

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2011, 12:26:23 AM »
Hello

I am using a separate drive motor. It became very obvious Romero was right about a few things.
One point he made was don't worry about the drive just use a good motor.

the work on the acceleration of the generator coils is where the research is up to at the momment.

the out runner in the photo can provide 2000 RPM at 300 Mil Amps  or 8200 RPM at 3.5 amps its very versatile. I recommend giving it a try it has helped me a lot with this work

Hi toranarod,

Thanks for stopping by.

Can you summarize you findings once more in this thread so we all understand them?
I noticed you have the generator coils fixed, so they probably are difficult to remove.

Most convincing experiment would be as follows:
1) remove (physically) all generator coils and measure the motor power consumption at a given RPM
2) mount the generator coils and drive the rotor such that same RPM is obtained as in 1) with no load to the generator coils (nothing connected)
3) measure the motor power consumed in 2)
4) short all generator coils and measure motor power consumption and RPM.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2011, 12:26:23 AM »
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Offline toranarod

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2011, 12:57:04 AM »
Hi toranarod,

Thanks for stopping by.

Can you summarize you findings once more in this thread so we all understand them?
I noticed you have the generator coils fixed, so they probably are difficult to remove.

Most convincing experiment would be as follows:
1) remove (physically) all generator coils and measure the motor power consumption at a given RPM
2) mount the generator coils and drive the rotor such that same RPM is obtained as in 1) with no load to the generator coils (nothing connected)
3) measure the motor power consumed in 2)
4) short all generator coils and measure motor power consumption and RPM.

i will post a photo of the current set up
by the end of my day i will have the data we are looking for.
today's coil type is mild steal core, solid. 280 turns 4.7 mH wire 18awg. 1.1mm. the core extends 15mm past the coil.  and is 1.5 mm gap.
RPM will be 2500 to 3000.


Offline toranarod

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2011, 05:03:47 AM »
Hello

I am using a separate drive motor. It became very obvious Romero was right about a few things.
One point he made was don't worry about the drive just use a good motor.




   the work on the acceleration of the generator coils is where the research is up to at the momment.

the out runner in the photo can provide 2000 RPM at 300 Mil Amps  or 8200 RPM at 3.5 amps its very versatile. I recommend giving it a try it has helped me a lot with this work


Here is some data on short circuits.   There is no electronics of any kind.
 Just dead short, open circuit or no coil.  It’s a basic comparison of core materials using the same coil.  All core dimensions are the same only change is material structure.   

I thought this was rather interesting.   



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2011, 05:03:47 AM »
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Offline teslaalset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2011, 09:53:16 AM »

Here is some data on short circuits.   There is no electronics of any kind.
 Just dead short, open circuit or no coil.  It’s a basic comparison of core materials using the same coil.  All core dimensions are the same only change is material structure.   

I thought this was rather interesting.

Hi toranarod,

Thanks very much for the quick data update.

If I understand your data correctly, you have replacable core types?
And the rotor motor is connected to a fixed voltage supply?

I made a quick analysis with excel.
Some observations:
RPM behaviour:
- No coil shows very nicely same results, something you would expect of course
- Open coil shows which core has most losses: solid iron (Fe) core, also, no supprise
- Shorted coil shows interesting RPM increase values for the solid iron (Fe) core from open to shorted coil.

Input current behaviour:
- Solid iron seems to influence the mechanical drag the most

Some missing info for further conclusions:
In particular the Mu metal cores raises some new questions, since it's RPM seems almost untouched and roughly independent from generator coil status.
It would help a lot in getting some more insights when we would know the shorted generator coil current and the coil resistance. This would give us a ballpark figure in what electrical output energy is delivered when generator coil is shorted. Do you have access to a current probe?

Offline toranarod

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2011, 01:30:29 PM »
Hi toranarod,

Thanks very much for the quick data update.

If I understand your data correctly, you have replacable core types?
And the rotor motor is connected to a fixed voltage supply?

I made a quick analysis with excel.
Some observations:
RPM behaviour:
- No coil shows very nicely same results, something you would expect of course
- Open coil shows which core has most losses: solid iron (Fe) core, also, no supprise
- Shorted coil shows interesting RPM increase values for the solid iron (Fe) core from open to shorted coil.

Input current behaviour:
- Solid iron seems to influence the mechanical drag the most

Some missing info for further conclusions:
In particular the Mu metal cores raises some new questions, since it's RPM seems almost untouched and roughly independent from generator coil status.
It would help a lot in getting some more insights when we would know the shorted generator coil current and the coil resistance. This would give us a ballpark figure in what electrical output energy is delivered when generator coil is shorted. Do you have access to a current probe?

great work thank you for the data
I will have some important figures come up in the next few days.
I will post them here if you would do another excel analysis.
thanks for this

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2011, 01:30:29 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2011, 06:22:07 PM »
Hello Overunityguide and everyone,

I have had my eye on your topic for a few days now and I find you're doing an excellent job.

It coincides that I have lately been thinking of applying what I personally learned while working with Thane Heins at the Ottawa University a few years back. I'm now considering of re-testing with new core material and biasing magnets.

I'm mostly thinking of applying this. A little over a year ago a researcher posted a
YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuzSkKlnCzc
and also shared his findings at this
Forum: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=399801

What he found was that a coil wound on a Finemet toroid (nanocrystaline) core would increase in Inductance as much as 3 time when approached to a magnet (up to a certain point)

I do have 2 of theses Finemet toroids and will soon be confirming his findings.

The idea here (if this information is correct) would be to use Finemet as core material on Thane's delayed Lenz coil technique. This would give a huge advantage as we could achieve higher than expected Inductance using minimal wire lengths since High Inductance is the Key factor to Thane's coil effect. The benefit to use less wire is cost but more important is that Thane later found reducing coil resistance boosted the coil current output.

I will soon post my findings.

Great work there toranarod! I have also been following your research and progress for some time.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Offline rogla

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2011, 06:40:33 PM »

The essence is that current lag is maximized.
The fundamental formula in setups like this is explained very nicely in this MIT video, starting from around time = 40:03:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpO6t00bPb8 (great teacher!)

Leaving out any capacity effects of winding(s) it boils down to :

Tangens(phi) = (omega x inductance) / Resistance 
(where phi is the delay )

This formula defines the current delay to the induced flux.
To maximize the delay:
- Increase omega (= 2 x pi x freq)
- Increase inductance
- Decrease resistance

Increase of omega is simple. Overunityguide showed the clear effects in his demos

Increasing inductance is not so simple. If magnets approach coil cores, the cores in general tend to saturate, causing a drop in inductance.
There are several ways to avoid saturation of core materials at TDC, e.g. to put bias magnets at the  other end of the cores of the coils. But.... this will saturate the cores when rotor magnets are not at TDC, leaving some other disadvantages.

Decrease of resistance is also complicated: using thicker wire is one solution, reducing windings another.
Thane Heins is using HV coils with many windings. This is not the only possible solution. It all depends on the formula above.
The MIT demo shows that even a solid ring has prominent current lag.

And then there is the possibility to play with capacity.
This allows for a whole arrangement of extra options.


Following is my conclusions of that MIT lecture.

The teacher states very clearly that the phase shift is purely a geometrically property.
If you inset the formula for the wire resistance etc in the solenoid phase shift formula, you will see that the phase shift depends only on the solenoid (coil) diameter, wire resistivity and rotational speed (RPM, Hz).
I did this substitution in a Maple workbook where I'm also can plot the phase shift as a function of RPM.
(Maximum phase shift is +-90 deg with changed sign at the resonance frequency.)

We can change the resistivity by changing wire material, but copper has a very good price/performance value.

So, If we stick with copper, the only parameters that causes changes in the phase shift is:
- the solenoid diameter  (large diamter = large phase shift)
- rotational speed (high = large phase shift)

All other parameters falls out, the phase shift does NOT depend on:
- wire diameter
- wire length
- solenoid length
- number of wire turns

So my conclusion is that there is an operational "speed window" where the effect kicks in and that the rotational speed for this window is lower for solenoids with larger diameter.

The effect (phase shift) does not depend on the resistance.
The level of output (voltage/current) is dependent on the resistance, so in the end we have to think about the resistance. However, it should work with boot high voltage and high current coils.

When we have chosen an operational speed and solenoid diameter to get a large phase shift, we select the wire diameter, wire length, solenoid length etc so the wire and electronics can handle the output.

I'm working with the idea of a coil with as low parasitic capacitance as possible and a separate capacitance bank that is switched in/out to have total 180 deg phase shift. Therefore (low cap), my aircore coils is very flat, 90 mm Dy, 30 mm DI and 5 mm thick. I also have made coils with magnetit/epoxy cores for test. I switch the coils with an Arduino computer, using a hall sensor. I can send all running data in real time to my PC over ethernet (tcp). I'm currently writing an application for the PC that will display all relevant data, store them in a database or file. It will also enable me to setup test sequences with a lot of diffrent values in the configuration (pulse width, length, start, rotational speed).
I have not started to sample data yet.

Anyway, this is what I have been thinking of and working with for a while.
I was originally planning to replicate the Romero UK Muller device, but in the end I decide to build a test rig where I can investigate and document a lot of diffrent properties for some coils. Replicating/building a working machine has to wait until all experiments is done and I fully understand this. Fun to learn!

/Rogla



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2011, 06:40:33 PM »
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Offline neptune

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2011, 06:56:27 PM »
@Rogla .Yours is the kind of dedicated systematic approach that is so desperately needed . If the "Muller" effect is real , yours is the kind of research that will crack it in the end . Even if OU is not possible using these ideas , as a minimum it can lead to generators having a very high efficiency .This could lead to small wind turbines that are more cost effective . Thanks in advance for sharing your data . As an aside , have a look at the adams motor , where the relationship between magnet size and coil diameter is stressed .

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2011, 08:34:08 PM »
I'm working with the idea of a coil with as low parasitic capacitance as possible and a separate capacitance bank that is switched in/out to have total 180 deg phase shift.

I have to disappoint you rogla, 180 degrees will not happen, max. current lag is near 90 degrees, no capacity applied.
Adding a capacitor will reduce the current lag to zero degrees max.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2011, 08:34:08 PM »
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Offline rogla

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2011, 08:50:03 PM »
@teslaalset

Ok, that's true, 180 deg absolute phase shift will not happen, it was not that I tried to say. What I tried to say was switching between -90 deg and +90 deg by switching a capacitor bank with larger value of impedance compared to the coil at the operational speed and with correct timing. The relative change in phase shift should be near 180 deg (from -90 to +90), not the absolute value. I rather would like to express me in Swedish, sorry for that bad writing....

Offline rogla

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2011, 09:04:45 PM »
Adding a capacitor will reduce the current lag to zero degrees max.

For a solenoid like in the MIT lecture, I disagree strongly. The only time there is zero degree phase shift (except pure resistance) is a resonance, i.e when the absolute value of the impedance of the coil and capacitor i equal. This is very basic.




Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2011, 09:28:37 PM »
The question however is, how much of a phase angle is enough?
30 deg? 45? 60? 85? More?

If we use some already known numbers for e.g. the 8 magnet romeroUK setup:
RPM= 1300
L =1.2mH
R=2Ohms
The figures  are approximate and inductance under dynamic conditions may also fluctuate some.
Using the above and solving for phase angle
Tan(phi)=omega * L/R
phi is about 33
couple more on different rpm, rest are the same.
at
3000 rpm its about 56
and
4400 rpm it’s about 65

Again, what should be the minimum or prefered range?

Thanks for the posts folks.
Mike

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2011, 09:30:59 PM »
For a solenoid like in the MIT lecture, I disagree strongly. The only time there is zero degree phase shift (except pure resistance) is a resonance, i.e when the absolute value of the impedance of the coil and capacitor i equal. This is very basic.

I am performing 3D Maxwell simulations right now to get the 3 stages you mentioned.
As soon as I have them finalized I will post them here, so we can discuss.

 

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