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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 819829 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #255 on: October 07, 2011, 10:09:50 AM »
Quote from: gotoluc on October 07, 2011, 02:58:06 AM

Hi Gyula,

I did make a Primary on the 7.5H Ferrite Toroid and tested it. I posted the results back on page 15 on the bottom of a reply to you:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11350.msg301782#msg301782

Anyways, it does only normal transformer action. Maybe the effect has somthing to do with the Steel laminations? 

Hi Luc,  sorry I must have skipped over it, maybe this effect manifests at an even higher frequency than 2MHz for this kind of transformer. How high frequency can you go up to with the signal generator I wonder. 
IT is sure the 7.5H winding on this toroidal core has got a much less self capacitance than in case of the MOT's secondary and I am also sure the laminated core in the MOT fails to maintain its permeability in the kHz range and starts diminishing significantly and nonlinearly.

Re on scope numerical display error of 2: yes it could be due to software and the manufacturer should be aware of that by now.
OK on your HV scope probe!

Quote
Notice on the first Shot how each 50% duty Phases of the H-Bridge to the Primary seem to only effect the Secondary at the beginning of each Phase change. The Secondary seems to have a ringdown like if the rest of the of the on time of the Primary is wasted. Notice on the second Shot (Secondary on load) the voltage on the load drop again like if most of the 50% phase on time is not doing anything to hold the current on the load.

Yes you noticed it correctly. This is the usual behavior when a transformer is driven with square wave: during the on time of the pulse the pulse amplitude does not change hence no current can change in the coil (pulse amplitude is horizontal)  so no induction can take place during this time.

Here is a variable duty cycle pulse generator for driving H bridges from Groundloop:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=819.0 I suggest using also the CMOS type LMC555C or TLC55C timers, they work up to about 3MHz.
This would be good for futuristic too  ;) 

Gyula
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #256 on: October 07, 2011, 01:53:56 PM »
Quote from: gyulasun on October 07, 2011, 10:09:50 AM
Hi Luc,  sorry I must have skipped over it, maybe this effect manifests at an even higher frequency than 2MHz for this kind of transformer.

Quote
Hi Gyula,

Anyways, it does only normal transformer action. Maybe the effect has somthing to do with the Steel laminations?
 

WE LOOKED AT USING FERRITE LAST YEAR FOR THE BiTT WITH A LICENSEE IN EUROPE BUT THE POWER FACTOR WAS 1 ON NO-LOAD WHICH WAS NOT USEFUL AT ALL AND I THINK LUC AND I TRIED METGLAS AT OTTAWA U IN 2008 - WHICH WAS GIVEN TO US BY CARL, DO YOU REMEMBER LUC? ANYWAY PERHAPS LUC CAN VERIFY THIS WITH HIS FERRITE TOROID?

CHEERS
T

« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 02:22:11 PM by CRANKYpants »
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #257 on: October 07, 2011, 02:18:54 PM »
Quote from: ramset on October 06, 2011, 05:32:49 PM
Oy Vey
The Boss is inviting the whole world to see Overnudity!!
Chet

WELL CHET YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY... "IF THE SHOE FITS"AND WE DO NEED EXPOSURE 8) BUT MORE THAN THAT PEOPLE NEED TO BE REMINDED OF WHAT REAL HUMAN COOPERATION LOOKS LIKE.

MY POSITION HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT THE WORLD OUGHT TO HAVE A "MONTREAL PROTOCOL ON ENERGY ALTERNATIVES WITH GLOBAL COOPERATION SANCTIONED BY THE UN" WITH THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE TO SAVE THE PLANET RATHER THAN EXPLOITING THE GLOBAL WARMING ISSUE TO CAPITALIZE FINANCIALLY AS AL GORE AND HIS BUDDIES AT KLEINER PERKINS CAUFIELD & BYERS ARE DOING.     

THE MONTREAL PROTOCOL PROVED THAT IT CAN WORK AND WE ARE ALL PROVING IT HERE AS WELL.  :D

CHEERS
T

The Montreal Protocol on Substances That Deplete the Ozone Layer (a protocol to the Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer) is an international treaty designed to protect the ozone layer by phasing out the production of numerous substances believed to be responsible for ozone depletion. The treaty was opened for signature on September 16, 1987, and entered into force on January 1, 1989, followed by a first meeting in Helsinki, May 1989. Since then, it has undergone seven revisions, in 1990 (London), 1991 (Nairobi), 1992 (Copenhagen), 1993 (Bangkok), 1995 (Vienna), 1997 (Montreal), and 1999 (Beijing). It is believed that if the international agreement is adhered to, the ozone layer is expected to recover by 2050. Due to its widespread adoption and implementation it has been hailed as an example of exceptional international co-operation, with Kofi Annan quoted as saying that "perhaps the single most successful international agreement to date has been the Montreal Protocol".It has been ratified by 196 states.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 03:53:59 PM by CRANKYpants »
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #258 on: October 07, 2011, 03:41:46 PM »
HOW DOES ONE START A NEW FORUM TOPIC FOR THE INFO BELOW? ??? Thanks Thane

"We can't set up independent scientific juries every time a company or individual comes forward and makes a extraordinary claim about a technology that can benefit the world." ~ Tyler Hamiltom, Adjunct Professor University of Toronto and Cleantech Blogger at Cleanbreak.

OK THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS BALONEY, SO...

"MONTREAL PROTOCOL" FOR ENERGY ALTERNATIVES AND WORLD BENEFITTING TECHNOLOGIES

POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE INC. IS STARTING A NEW IP COMMERCIALIZATION COMPANY CALLED E-MOTION TECHNOLOGIES INC. WITH THE AIM OF ASSISTING IN THE WORLDWIDE EVALUATION AND COMMERCIALIZATION OF EMERGING TECHNOLOGIES WHICH CAN BENEFIT THE PLANET EARTH AND PROVIDE A FAIR FINANCIAL RETURN FOR ALL PARTIES INVOLVED.

THE DEVELOPMENT OF NON-EXPLOITIVE BUSINESS PRACTICES AND MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL SYNERGIES BETWEEN VARIOUS TECHNOLOGIES WILL ALSO BE ONE OF THE KEY MANDATES AS WELL.

IF YOU HAVE A TECHNOLOGY WHICH IS AT THE PROTOTYPE STAGE WHICH NEEDS TO BE EVALUATED, FURTHER DEVELOPED OR COMMERCIALIZED BUT YOU DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES, ARE UNAWARE OF POSSIBLE SYNERGIES WITH OTHER TECHNOLOGIES OR THE MARKETING ROUTES TO DO SO PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

KIND REGARDS
Thane

Thane C. Heins
President & CEO
Potential +/- Difference Inc. R & D
"The Transition of Power"
thaneh@potentialdifference.ca
Linkedin http://linkd.in/iIZyXF
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"How do we make the world work for 100% of humanity in the shortest possible time
-through spontaneous cooperation without ecological damage or disadvantage to anyone"
~ Dr. R. Buckminster Fuller 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 04:02:10 PM by CRANKYpants »
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Offline shimondoodkin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #259 on: October 07, 2011, 06:15:01 PM »
idea for a test:
maybe to make DC of the output (maybe like diode bridge + capacitor filter) and measure it under different loads
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 11:19:22 PM by shimondoodkin »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #260 on: October 07, 2011, 06:25:13 PM »
Boss,
Does this work?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11455.msg301981#msg301981

Chet
PS
If Not
Click on Forum link
Scroll to news section  "click"
Look up top right for "new Topic"   "Click"


Wallah..........
PPS
I didn't put the UnderNudity flag in??
And I see our OverNudity Flag is Missing??? [do we have one?]
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #261 on: October 07, 2011, 07:37:47 PM »
Quote from: ramset on October 07, 2011, 06:25:13 PM
Boss,
Does this work?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11455.msg301981#msg301981

Chet
PS

Wallah..........
PPS
I didn't put the UnderNudity flag in??
And I see our OverNudity Flag is Missing??? [do we have one?]

THANKS RAMSET!

ASK IRON TO SEND YOU A PICTURE OF THE OVERNUDITY POSEE DON'T POST IT THOUGH AS IT MAY OFFEND SOME HORSE LOVERS.

CHEERS
T
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #262 on: October 07, 2011, 08:22:09 PM »
Hi everyone,

I have an update.

I removed the 4013 Flip-Flop from my H-Bridge and connected the two outputs of a SG3525 PWM which does flip flop but with pulse with adjustment.

Works great :D... so I now have an H-Bridge with adjustable Frequency and Pulse Width

See below (basic) schematic I found on the internet and made some small mods like a rotary switch to be able to select different cap values to change Frequency range and also have 2 pots in series (one high resistance and one low) to be able to fine tune Frequency once in range where you want it.

I started testing the MOT by reducing the pulse width and found it was reducing the Secondary Current output in a linear way. So not much was wasted with the prior 50% duty cycle.
However, I found that as I reduced the duty cycle I noticed I could drop the Frequency and still get the same effect (not affecting the Primary Current) with load on the Secondary .
I was able to drop the Frequency down to 60Hz but the duty cycle maybe at 1% more or less. It's just at the minimum pulse width output of the SG3525 but it does work. See scope shots below.

Green Probe across Primary and Yellow Probe across Secondary
First scope shot is Primary @60Hz with 63vdc @740ua with 1% duty cycle and Open Secondary
Second scope shot is Primary @60Hz with 63vdc @740ua with 1% duty cycle and 22 Ohms load on Secondary

My question is, at this Frequency and pulse width does this still work with Overunityguide's Lenz Delay explanation?

Luc
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 08:50:13 PM by gotoluc »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #263 on: October 07, 2011, 10:44:52 PM »
Quote from: gyulasun on October 07, 2011, 10:09:50 AM
maybe this effect manifests at an even higher frequency than 2MHz for this kind of transformer. How high frequency can you go up to with the signal generator I wonder. 
IT is sure the 7.5H winding on this toroidal core has got a much less self capacitance than in case of the MOT's secondary and I am also sure the laminated core in the MOT fails to maintain its permeability in the kHz range and starts diminishing significantly and nonlinearly.

Gyula

Hi Gyula,

my Signal Generator is 2MHz Max.
I had already tested the Ferrite Toroid with my H-Bridge without success so I decided to try it with the output of my SG.

At 2Mhz the effect starts, see Scope shots. However I have nothing else to test it with that has a Higher Frequency or output. Also, you can forget about using an H-Bridge at these frequencies.

Green Probe is Current across 1 Ohm and Yellow probe is Voltage
First Scope Shot is Ferrite Toroid Primary @2MHz with Secondary Open
Second Scope Shot is Ferrite Toroid Primary @2MHz with Secondary on 22 Ohm Load
Third Scope Shot is Ferrite Toroid Primary @2MHz with Secondary on 22 Ohm Load with Voltage Probe across Load

That's about all I can do at this time

Luc
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #264 on: October 07, 2011, 11:43:14 PM »
Hi Luc,

it seems the input current gets reduced a little when the secondary coil is loaded with the 20 Ohm. So the 'effect' is there and surely at higher than 2 MHz frequency you could find a 90° phase difference between input voltage and current.
At 2MHz a wire wound resistor has got inductive reactance too which adds to the normal DC resistance value, causing the 1 Ohm to be a a little bit higher than 1 Ohm. The same is especially true for a 20 Ohm wire wound resistor because it must have more turns to get the higher resistance. This latter is which may count if someone attempts to calculate output power from the output rms voltage and the 20 Ohm values. Otherwise it does not matter much, only can slightly modify the resultant phase shift as an addition.  One more thing: if you happen to have a 10pF or max 22pF capacitor at hand, try to connect in parallel with the secondary, this can bring down the natural resonance of the secondary (7.5H) coil maybe under 2MHz.  IF you do not have any cap, you can twist two 15-20 cm long enameled or plactic insulated wire together, connect the two wires of one  end to the secondary and leave the other two wire ends of the twist open.  This would make a 15-25pF or so capacitor, depending on the tightness of the twist. You can also cut the length to reduce the 'cap' value.

Thanks for your kind efforts. 
Gyula
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #265 on: October 08, 2011, 02:55:28 PM »
Quote from: gotoluc on October 07, 2011, 10:44:52 PM

Green Probe is Current across 1 Ohm and Yellow probe is Voltage

VOLTAGE = PRIMARY VOLTAGE?

Quote
First Scope Shot is Ferrite Toroid Primary @2MHz with Secondary Open

POWER FACTOR IS NOT GOOD, I.E. ALMOST 1

Quote
Second Scope Shot is Ferrite Toroid Primary @2MHz with Secondary on 22 Ohm Load

CURRENT DEREASES BY 50mV OR 6.8% WHICH IS GOOD  :)
POWER FACTOR SHIFTS BY ABOUT 10 DEGREES TOWARDS 1 BECOMING MORE RESISTIVE = NOT SO GOOD  :-[

SOME OF THE LOAD PF IS BEING REFLECTED BACK ONTO THE PRIMARY.

Quote
Third Scope Shot is Ferrite Toroid Primary @2MHz with Secondary on 22 Ohm Load with Voltage Probe across Load

PRIMARY VOLTAGE AND LOAD CURRENT PHASE ANGLES MEANS NOTHING HOWEVER IF YOU CAN MOVE THE YELLOW PROBE TO THE SHUNT (PRIMARY CURRENT) THIS WOULD TELL US WHAT EFFECT LOAD PF IS HAVING ON THE PRIMARY... I.E. IS THE SHIFT 10 DEGREES AS ABOVE?

THE ONLY THING THAT IS OF ANY RELEVANCE IS THE PRIMARY CURRENT AND POWER FACTOR. MOST IMPORTANT IS THE SHUNT PROBE - REMOVING THAT REMOVES OUR REFERENCE POINT FOR OBSERVATION.

GOOD SCIENCE IS GOOD OBSERVATION AND YOU NEED A 4 CHANNEL SCOPE IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE MOVING PROBES AROUND BECAUSE WE NEED TO MAINTAIN OUR REFERENCE POINT. (THAT IS WHY I AM BRINGING YOU MY SCOPE TODAY... IF YOU ARE NOT OUT SAILING?)  8)
 
CHEERS
T
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Offline ramset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #266 on: October 08, 2011, 03:11:31 PM »
SAILING??
NOBODY TOLD ME THERE WAS AN OVER NUDITY  SAILING TRIP!!

 :P

Chet
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #267 on: October 08, 2011, 03:38:11 PM »
Quote from: ramset on October 08, 2011, 03:11:31 PM
SAILING??
NOBODY TOLD ME THERE WAS AN OVER NUDITY  SAILING TRIP!!
 :P
Chet

YOU HAVE SOME BATHROOMS TO CLEAN FIRST MISTER!
WE MAY HAVE GUESTS COMING OVER FOR THANKSGIVING DINNER.

T
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Offline ramset

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #268 on: October 08, 2011, 04:16:10 PM »
GOOD ............
Swab your own decks,See If I care!!

Sigh.....
Overnudity sailing one of my last Vices.............

Chet
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #269 on: October 08, 2011, 04:50:24 PM »
Quote from: ramset on October 08, 2011, 04:16:10 PM
GOOD ............
Swab your own decks,See If I care!!
Chet

AFTER YOU ARE DONE WITH THE BATHROOMS YOU HAVE TO CHECK ON OUG TO SEE HOW HE IS DOING WITH HIS CHORES  :P NOW THAT HE IS HOME FROM HIS "BUSINESS TRIP".

CHEERS
T
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