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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 781190 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1260 on: April 28, 2013, 10:50:16 PM »
I was asked to provide a schematic for my simple SB thread spool coil pulse motor circuit with the precision ceramic bearing that yielded those dumfounding OU results! Here's what it looks like:

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1261 on: April 29, 2013, 12:40:10 AM »
Synchro1:

I am assuming that you are calling your setup OU because of the very high RPM you observed.  You mentioned that it did a "jump up" in RPM.  Note that TK explained how it's easily explainable how an excitation frequency of X can make a rotor turn at 2X or 4X speed.

If I recall you also mentioned that you weren't able to measure any current going into the setup when it was turning at the extra high speed.

I can suggest the following:  You might have a 10,000 or 20,000 uF capacitor in among your parts.   So connect the big capacitor in parallel with your battery and try to get your motor to spin at the extra high speed.  Put a voltmeter across the capacitor.

Assuming that you can do this then once the motor is spinning at the extra high speed disconnect the battery and let it run on the big capacitor only.  You will see the capacitor voltage start to drop.

So with this first test step you can confirm that the motor does indeed draw current and consumes power.  This suggests a logical second test.  Do exactly the same thing but this time after four seconds disconnect the capacitor from the motor.  So you end up with the capacitance, the start voltage, the end voltage, and the time interval.  That gives you enough information to calculate the power consumption of the motor.

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1262 on: April 29, 2013, 02:12:36 AM »
@Milehigh,
                 Thanks for the advise. That's an approach I plan to try.
 
 

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1263 on: April 29, 2013, 11:28:28 AM »
Conrad if you're using AC excitation then a charging inductor might not be much use to you. I got a good increase in speed for the same drive pulse width by using the charging inductor as a motor coil, it would seem that the phases are a bit different of course, I'll investigate the differences in phase between the motor coil current and the charging inductor current, even though the coils are in series the motor coil current is first, the inductor current only flows when the discharge capacitor goes below supply voltage but I'm not certain when it stops or if there are changes in phase due to rotor speed or timing ect.

Just as with most things as the rotational speed increases the optimum timing for the coil to fire before the magnet is dead center varies. I won't call it top dead center because it is not an I.C.E., so the top has nothing to do with it.  ;) Nothing moves up and down like the piston to be at top dead center. Anyway the inductor current is a bit after the motor current so placement is important, directly opposite might not be the best position. I found if I place the charging inductor at about 20 to 30 degrees after the motor core it has good effect when the motor is already spinning but it does not aid in start up torque there. If I place it directly opposite the motor coil at 180 degrees then it does add start up torque and increase the rpm for the same PW but the max rpm is less than if it is added at 30 degrees while the motor is already spinning.

I'll hold off where I think the best placement is until after I scope the currents.

I made a new motor coil from two strands of what looks like about 0.6 mm wire, 65 meters each and made the old motor coil the charging inductor for now, I organised the wire so I can make another coil the same.

Basically it seems the charging inductor can be used as a series drive coil as well, and after the first switching of the drive coil the voltage it gets is increased and the phase of the charge inductor current is then lagging the drive coil currents, or so it would seem on first glance. Now if I can get the drive coil to discharge into a cap for the charging inductor to draw from, then the power draw will decrease as well, but then there will be no charge battery. With very low input power a charge battery is almost pointless anyway unless it is small, or desulfation is wanted. When I get the motor coils and rotor arrangement I want I'll build a more solid motor with places for generator coils. Then I'll go for the resonant generator coils with switched loads.

Cheers

P.S. Drawing shows basic idea.  :) Disregard the little rectangles drawn on the rotor they mean nothing they were meant to be rubbed out (just reflector strips).
Of course the idea can be expanded to include more sets of two coils.

I think it might be time to have a look in Tesla's invention book.  ;D  http://ia600302.us.archive.org/16/items/inventionsresear00martiala/inventionsresear00martiala.pdf


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1264 on: April 29, 2013, 01:58:39 PM »
Try biasing your solenoid drive coils by placing a small NdB magnet on the core end away from the rotor. Try both polarity orientations of the bias magnet while the motor is running.
If you are using mechanical reed switches, their performance (timing, durability, jitter, etc) can be improved by using a tiny magnet, fixed in position, near the reed, usually on the opposite side from the rotor magnet passage. Again, experiment while the motor is running, moving a small magnet around the reed switch. You can also extend the life of your expensive reed switches by using a small ceramic capacitor directly across the switch. Of course... this will usually also kill any "ou" effect from the switch.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1265 on: April 29, 2013, 03:08:21 PM »
Attached is the best scope shot I could get, I had trouble getting the wave form to stay in place. I guess it could be synced with the drive pulse maybe.

Anyway there is a difference in phase, one waveform is inverted because I put both scope grounds to the capacitor with one 0.1 Ohm current sense resistor from the charging coil to the cap and and the other 0.1 Ohm resistor from the cap to the drive coil. With the scope shots the yellow trace is the charging inductor and the blue trace is the main drive coil. The main drive coil trace (blue) is inverted because of the way the scope probes are attached. The phases are the same even if the charging coil is not near the rotor.

Tinsel, I'm using an optical sensor and a circuit to process the signal into a variable width pulse independent of the signal pulse, narrower or wider pulses than the optical sensor reads are possible, I also have the sensor mounted so I can adjust the timing. I'm using two parallel mosfets to switch the coil which has two windings.

I figure if I use a charging circuit I may as well use the inductor to help drove the rotor.  :) Also the drive coil discharge would seem to be almost in phase with the charging inductor current. Which could be handy.

Also attached is a picture on one idea for using the charging coil just after the main drive coil. And a drawing with the resistor arrangement I used to see the phases, ( the coils are in a different position on the rotor but the circuit is the same).

Cheers

Anyone want to see a quick video clip of how it works to speed up the rotor ?

Offline PiCéd

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1266 on: April 29, 2013, 09:33:24 PM »
Sorry for the awfull picture:
Maybe work better like this (magnets are radial), it's like the earth free spinning on itself and around the sun

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1267 on: April 29, 2013, 10:20:28 PM »
I made my Version 1 of the ring magnet spinner a bit more sturdy. The flimsy and rattling ball bearings were replace with Teflon slab which just have a hole for the axle.

I think I can still tweak it a bit and the Hall sensor has to go underneath the ring magnet because I want to place a "magic generator coil" on top.

The most useful setting seems to be 12V which results in about 3000 rpm for 0.5 Watt.

The most difficult part is the mechanical precision which is till bad in my Version 1 and still worse in my Version 2, see my Reply #1239 on: April 26, 2013, 09:46:35 PM-

Version 1 was better with the rattling ball bearings, see my Reply #1243 on: April 26, 2013, 10:25:47 PM.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1268 on: April 30, 2013, 01:32:52 AM »
Sorry for the awfull picture:
Maybe work better like this (magnets are radial), it's like the earth free spinning on itself and around the sun

Here's a  rotating magnet rotor motor like the one you designed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKz1Y3UayHw

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1269 on: April 30, 2013, 03:05:35 AM »
I did some thinking and I think I'll go with a setup something like in the attached drawing. Both coils should be working at around the resonant frequency when the 330 uF cap I have now is considered with them. 80 Hz is 2400 rpm with two magnets. I'll make the second coil just like the first one so I have two the same. I might use some dressed shelf timber 290 mm wide for the sides so there is a big flat area to support generator coils and I'll make it with a removable bearing block in one side so the rotor can be removed through the side. I can place "shelves" so generator coils mounted on wooden mounts can slide in. 

If the generator coil is resonant at three times the working frequency of 80 Hz then there will be harmonic oscillations at 240 Hz to work with.

Concerning the drive coil if it has 12 mH inductance and I dump a 330 uF cap through it then it will be 'resonant' at 80 hz not truly resonant but the coils should be responsive, trying to dump the 330 uF cap through the 12 mH coil at faster rates I think will show less responsiveness. Let's say if I made the generator coil resonant at say 40 Hz then if it gets excited at a faster rate than that it would be working past it's resonant frequency which would restrict the current through the coil and reduce the power it could produce. So the idea is if it is resonant at three times the working frequency that can't happen. Then I can switch the loads attached to the generator coil for effect.

We should remember that part of my input is reclaimed to the charge battery or otherwise  which is connected now to the discharge cap so that only one diode is in the discharge path.

I'm calling it a Dual Resonant Pulse Motor, it easily reaches and exceeds 2400 rpm with the second coil in place.  Now to build a new frame.  :)
EDIT: ( Actually I'll call it a Two Phase Dual Resonant Pulse Motor:D )

Wave forms look cool.  ;)

Yellow trace is the capacitor in the charging circuit.
Blue trace is the mosfet drain.

Here's the video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1_KlgJ09Bs

 


 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 01:45:25 PM by Farmhand »

Offline PiCéd

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1270 on: April 30, 2013, 10:39:19 AM »
synchro1, yes him and Th3Generat0r.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1271 on: April 30, 2013, 05:32:37 PM »
Jorge demononstrates a COP of 4x OU with 4 Pancake "Orbo Toroid" hybrid  power pickup coils:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a28DqHF5tGM
 
and again to measure output voltage with a load. on:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1wwb9VkeTI
 
Adam's attraction to the ferrite toroids coupled with masking power pulse pancake coil recovery! Jorge may have perfected the Stoern Orbo.

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1272 on: April 30, 2013, 06:11:08 PM »
I have done what I am willing and capable, Version 1 of my ring magnet spinner will be the basis for testing magic coils.

Better motor builders will be able to do produce a better contraption. Try to beat my Version 1 (less power demand, higher rpm) and please show us your results.

See the attached schematics, scope shots (over the two parallel drive coils) and power demand measurements (on the photo). This ring magnet spinner self starts (with this commutating drive circuit).

The magic coil will be placed above the rotor, but it will take some time.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1273 on: April 30, 2013, 06:19:11 PM »
Jorge demononstrates a COP of 4x OU with 4 Pancake "Orbo Toroid" hybrid  power pickup coils:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a28DqHF5tGM
 
and again to measure output voltage with a load. on:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1wwb9VkeTI
 
Adams attraction to the ferrite toroids coupled with masking power pulse pancake coil recovery! Jorge may have perfected the Stoern Orbo.

It is an impressive contraption, very nicely built. I like the idea to combine drive coils (toroids) and generator coils.

What I can see from Jorge's very crude measurements is a result around unity. Nevertheless very interesting. It is difficult to make precise measurements in this very dynamic system.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1274 on: April 30, 2013, 07:51:26 PM »
Jorge demononstrates a COP of 4x OU with 4 Pancake "Orbo Toroid" hybrid  power pickup coils:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a28DqHF5tGM
 
and again to measure output voltage with a load. on:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1wwb9VkeTI
 
Adam's attraction to the ferrite toroids coupled with masking power pulse pancake coil recovery! Jorge may have perfected the Stoern Orbo.

Synchro, The second video is a different load (a battery) and the left meter is the input current 0.53 Amps the meter is set to read Amps, and the input power is set so that the current is  0.53 Amps so it looks like the 53 volts from before when he measured volts. That's what it looks like to me, the right meter is the charge current, the left meter is the input current (no voltage shown).

The first video the output voltage was not measured under load, so that was pointless.

He seems to be trying to make out he has OU when he hasn't. Why not just measure the voltage of the output when loaded by the Lamp ? Makes no sense to me.

In my books his credibility is blown. Looks nice though.

My guess is about 45 % efficient.

Cheers