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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 767356 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1230 on: April 25, 2013, 08:05:53 PM »
Hi Conrad,

Okay I understand the positioning.  Do you happen to have an L meter to check the relay coils inductance? No problem if you do not,  just it would be helpful to know for the black and the white coils the mH values because it may also explain the possible force they can exert on the magnet at a given input current.  (The higher the L value, the higher the force, assuming the same current.)

Well, the enlarged head end of the white coil actually may 'increase' flux connection (so to speak), not neccessarily a disadvantage.

Thanks for the scope shots on this newer setup.  I have the impression that the very narrow spikes are cut by the immediate supply voltage change just after the switch-off, I mean some of the collapsing energy may get cut, so is lost from the recovery possibility. This is why the duty cycle would be good to control i.e. making it less than 50%, perhaps it would not influence too much the rpm.

rgds, Gyula

@Gyula: Eventually I will try a trigger coil which will allow quite easily (by moving it closer and farer from the spinning magnet) to control the duty cycle. With two drive coils, the trigger coil has to be on the side of the spinning magnet, because the trigger coil should be where one of the drive coil is. I do not want to wind the trigger coil over the drive coil because I want to move the trigger coil into different positions.

Duty cycle is probably not very important for the speed, but it might dramatically cut power demand (may be by half).

I will eventually redo Version 1 mostly like Version 2, but with the axle sticking out a few centimetres on one side. Then I can try many set ups, many drive coils and various control sensors (control disk with little magnets, Hall sensor, trigger coil, Reed Switch like you said combined with a transistor, even opto-gates).

Greetings, Conrad

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1231 on: April 25, 2013, 10:31:19 PM »
Skycollection dynamotor power measurements"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3qXaRNEQyE
 
Quote from youtube:

 "THE INPUT WATTS ARE : 12 VOLTS X 0.38 = 4.56 WATTS  AND THE OUTPUT WATTS THREE PANCAKES ARE : 17 VOLTS X 0.26 = 4.42 WATTS".
 
That's 96.875% efficient.  Close to unity. He could do as well just placing one pancake output coil over the pancake pulse coil like  JLNaudin's "Gegene".
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 12:59:19 AM by synchro1 »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1232 on: April 26, 2013, 03:17:47 AM »
He can improve the test by using three resistive loads across the coils with three true-RMS multimeters reading the RMS voltage.  In a lab you have those decade resistor boxes.  The ideal would be to have three decade resistor boxes, one per output coil.  Then you could put the motor through its paces and see how it does with different loads.  I love his build style but you don't see the output measurement.

One thing to remember about pancake coils as pick-up coils is that the inner coils would normally cut less changing magnetic flux as compared to the outer coils.  So by design they inherently will pick up less power as compared to a circular coil.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1233 on: April 26, 2013, 12:50:15 PM »
@Gyula: Eventually I will try a trigger coil which will allow quite easily (by moving it closer and farer from the spinning magnet) to control the duty cycle. With two drive coils, the trigger coil has to be on the side of the spinning magnet, because the trigger coil should be where one of the drive coil is. I do not want to wind the trigger coil over the drive coil because I want to move the trigger coil into different positions.

Duty cycle is probably not very important for the speed, but it might dramatically cut power demand (may be by half).

I will eventually redo Version 1 mostly like Version 2, but with the axle sticking out a few centimetres on one side. Then I can try many set ups, many drive coils and various control sensors (control disk with little magnets, Hall sensor, trigger coil, Reed Switch like you said combined with a transistor, even opto-gates).

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad, I see you use photo interrupters/switches as well. Some circuitry can be arranged to give manual pulse width control with a pot (independent of the trigger pulse width), as well as retriggering to accelerate up to speed as a Bedini type setup does. I put some drawings in the COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS thread, I've put together a very simple new frame, rotor and coil assembly so I can refine the circuit.

I wonder is there a more appropriate thread for discussing just basic pulse motors and the driving arrangements of different kinds. Would be good to pool idea's.

I'm not sure where to post about pulse motors and their driving circuits.  :-\

Nice work by the way.
Cheers

P.S. Does anyone have a 3D rendering of the magnetic field shape of a diametrically magnetized tube magnet ?

..

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1234 on: April 26, 2013, 01:10:58 PM »
The Marinov Slab :

(Not a "free energy" candidate but one that exhibits some other controversial behavior: it's a N3L violator. In my dreams.)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1235 on: April 26, 2013, 03:36:58 PM »
Hi Conrad, I see you use photo interrupters/switches as well. Some circuitry can be arranged to give manual pulse width control with a pot (independent of the trigger pulse width), as well as retriggering to accelerate up to speed as a Bedini type setup does. I put some drawings in the COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS thread, I've put together a very simple new frame, rotor and coil assembly so I can refine the circuit.

I wonder is there a more appropriate thread for discussing just basic pulse motors and the driving arrangements of different kinds. Would be good to pool idea's.

I'm not sure where to post about pulse motors and their driving circuits.  :-\

Nice work by the way.
Cheers

P.S. Does anyone have a 3D rendering of the magnetic field shape of a diametrically magnetized tube magnet ?

..

@Farmhand: I saw your circuits in the COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS thread. Interesting, so many ways to do it. Yes, we should share different concepts and designs. Why not post your design in this thread. Everybody who wants to test "magic generator coils" needs a way to drive the rotor or magnet spinner. Specialised threads run dry very soon. This thread will stay alive till people stop claiming "magic generator coils" which will last a few more months.

Remark: I know, one could turn a magnet rotor with any conventional motor, even by hand. But building ones own drive circuit and method is more interesting.

@TinselKoala: I am intrigued by your  Marinov Slab. What is N3L violation? Does the rotor have magnets? What is the drive principle? May be you can point to some information. Any way, it looks awesom, probably alien technology which you hide from the world. But the men in black will get you or we will steal it from you.

I want to point to a motor driver principle described by DadHav http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4xlCKn3LQ (John Havrilla). It does not need any trigger, the drive coil itself is the trigger. I only post the most simple version for one drive coil (please watch the video, great ideas). DadHav drives a window motor from a capacitor for a long time. I have to try that with my ring magnet spinners. May be it works with MOSFETs (the base has high resistance, no resistors needed, Q6 is doing the driving, Q5 the sensing and triggering).

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1236 on: April 26, 2013, 04:28:28 PM »
I see your point Conrad, Pulse motors circuits, novel generator coils and fancy coil shorting circuits go together.

Please forgive the frame ect. I just whipped it up from three pieces of wood and some screws. :-[ The main thing is it runs very smooth and stable so seeing differences will be fairly easy. I do intend to build an improved version after I work out some things, at present the magnets are quite far from the core and there are only two magnets north pole out, diametrically magnetized neo tubes 12 x 12 mm. I'll set up a gen coils to try with this type of rotor. The two boards on the left are unused as yet except for circuit supply voltage regulators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sv539Nxfek

I wanted a circuit setup with adjustable pulse width while the motor is running, the re-trigger is mainly there for coil shorting/load switching experiment purposes.  ;)

The external shutdown if pulsed from the picaxe should be able to limit speed or shut down when a low supply voltage level is sensed ect.  The picaxe can run boost converter for input voltage control, and switch loads maybe.

Drive pulses about 3 mS in the video. RPM about 1380 or so.

 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 06:44:56 PM by Farmhand »

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1237 on: April 26, 2013, 08:58:46 PM »
I see your point Conrad, Pulse motors circuits, novel generator coils and fancy coil shorting circuits go together.

Please forgive the frame ect. I just whipped it up from three pieces of wood and some screws. :-[ The main thing is it runs very smooth and stable so seeing differences will be fairly easy. I do intend to build an improved version after I work out some things, at present the magnets are quite far from the core and there are only two magnets north pole out, diametrically magnetized neo tubes 12 x 12 mm. I'll set up a gen coils to try with this type of rotor. The two boards on the left are unused as yet except for circuit supply voltage regulators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sv539Nxfek

I wanted a circuit setup with adjustable pulse width while the motor is running, the re-trigger is mainly there for coil shorting/load switching experiment purposes.  ;)

The external shutdown if pulsed from the picaxe should be able to limit speed or shut down when a low supply voltage level is sensed ect.  The picaxe can run boost converter for input voltage control, and switch loads maybe.

Drive pulses about 3 mS in the video. RPM about 1380 or so.

@Farmhand: For such a big rotor your machine really runs smoothly, well balanced.

Not a criticism, just a statement. With about 13 Volt you are using about 0.4 Ampere, which calculates to about 5 Watt. This is a value I see with most pulse motors of the size like yours on YouTube.

I think we should try to get the power demand down. Torque is not an issue in case one believes in finding a "magic generator coil" that produces electricity but does not slow the rotor down by much as e.g. SkyCollection shows with his magic pancake coil.

In case one just wants to spin a rotor (and is not concerned about torque) the mechanical factors are dominant (bearings, balancing the rotor).

Pulse motors are very weak (little torque for the Watts put in), but they could be very efficient if one just wants to spin a freely rotation rotor (which does not have to produce torque). But then the drive circuit becomes important. And this is what I am working on.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1238 on: April 26, 2013, 09:40:02 PM »
Yes I agree Conrad, The input power is too high, the rotor magnets need to be a bit closer to the drive coil core, and the drive coil itself is just a test coil I had laying around, I didn't even bother to remove the diodes that are attached to it, so I drew them in the drawing hehe. I need a better coil and core which I'll do before I try a closer magnet placement. I don't want the drive core too close to the magnets since they are neo's. I'm thinking of using three drive coils in series, one where the one is now and another at each side in just the right place to pinch the north pole of the diametric tube, I had a probe around with a generator coil and there is a very strong field point just to the sides of the north side of the cylinder. I'll post a drawing very shortly of what I mean. That should give the best squeeze for the power. Really put the pinch on the magnet.  :) Hoping then the drive pulse can be shorter.

The way it is now the field of the drive coil seems to be just bumping the rotor magnet field. And doesn't exert the correct balance of repulsive force for input power because of the distance being a bit too far..

The tube magnets I think have distorted shaped field and I think the field lines go across the hole to the south pole at the edges. I'm thinking for gen coils it could allow for some different effects as well.

Getting the drive power down with good rotor speed is important I think. Thanks for the input.

Oh and I think the mosfet I'm using is damaged by current through my own misadventure. It's getting warm when it should be cold and the wave form looks off on conduction.

Cheers


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1239 on: April 26, 2013, 09:46:35 PM »
I now have a comparison between the black and the white coils used in Version 2 of my ring magnet spinner. One sees from the measurements that the black coils have about double efficiency in comparison with the white coils (see attached picture).

Version 2 has mechanical problems, the ball bearings drag. But this drag is the same for the white coils and the black coils, so the comparison is valid.

I will give the ball bearings an acetone treatment and will tray to repair the rattling of Version 1, because Version one was very much more efficient than Version 2 (in terms of rpm per Watt).

Of course, when just free spinnig a ring magnet power draw depends very much on the mechanical friction of the set up. But the drive coil (I recommend a coil with a lot of windings i.e. high DC resistance) and the circuit (which I still try to advance) are also important factors for the power draw.

My aim: spin a ring magnet with very high rpm and very little power.

Greetings,

Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1240 on: April 26, 2013, 09:53:54 PM »
My magic black drive coil from a 12V relay, just in case someone wants to use a similar coil. (Note, this is not a magic generator coil, just a magic drive coil).

I am not a sales person of www.conrad.at, but I got it from them. Any similar type will do, the coil should be longish with a DC resistance of 250 to 300 Ohm.

It will not produce a lot of torque in a pulse motor, but it allows efficient driving.

The housing and the metal bar coming from the back of the coil to the contacts in the front has to be removed by help of a fine hack saw. I damaged the first coil, but then I saw how to do it (use a vice to hold the relay when working on it).

Greetings, Conrad

Offline truesearch

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1241 on: April 26, 2013, 09:54:12 PM »
@Farmhand:


A question: Won't your neo's deteriorate by driving them in "repulsion" continually? If they do "wear out", then it would be disappointing to have to replace them periodically.


truesearch

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1242 on: April 26, 2013, 09:58:09 PM »
@Farmhand: I like the Three-Coil-Drive-Arragement! Another nice idea which I will try one day.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1243 on: April 26, 2013, 10:25:47 PM »
For the people who are interested, Version 1 of my magnet spinner did 8400 rpm with less than 0.5 Watt.

The drive circuit can be seen in my Reply #1202 on: April 23, 2013, 01:34:13 PM.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1244 on: April 26, 2013, 10:29:00 PM »
@Farmhand:


A question: Won't your neo's deteriorate by driving them in "repulsion" continually? If they do "wear out", then it would be disappointing to have to replace them periodically.


truesearch

I don't know but I doubt it would do anything to them that sticking them on a fridge door wouldn't do anyway. If the energy leaves the magnet it must go somewhere and if there is no heat chances are it would go to rotation energy or recovery energy.

Nothing lasts for ever.  :)
Cheers