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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 756421 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1050 on: April 18, 2013, 02:42:37 AM »
Farmhand:

I think that you are in the right ballpark for some points, but I disagree with your comments about energy stored in the coils as being part of the explanation.  I suspect that you might be right on track with respect to the extra load or drag on the rotor when there is no load on the pick-up coils.  That creates cogging from the attraction between the rotor magnets and pick-up coil cores.  You assume the cogging creates radial stress on the bearings, and some bearings can cope with radial stress better than others.  I am making an assumption that when the pick-up coils are driving loads, that the cogging is reduced.  That's a big assumption that would have to somehow be verified.

Certainly there is no over 100% percent efficiency.  To describe the setup in somewhat abstract terms you can say the battery sees the entire motor setup as an electrical load with an average impedance.  The average impedance determines the power draw from the battery.

If you change the impedance by changing the motor configuration the power consumption will go up or down.  The impedance is a complex electro-mechanical impedance that is dependent on several factors, the speed of the rotor, the inductance values, where your losses are, air friction, bearing friction, etc.

It's also possible that you can change the motor configuration and the impedance will only be marginally affected from the point of view of the battery.  However, where that power goes internally relative to the motor itself may change.  One possibility is that less power will be dissipated in the bearings, and that allows more power to go to turn the rotor.  Hence the rotor speeds up but the motor power consumption does not change.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1051 on: April 18, 2013, 03:26:40 AM »
Farmhand:

I did the coil energy calculations because Synchro1 believes that a pseudo-bifilar coil gives you great advantages in pulse motor applications.  There is also the diagram he posted with the bullet points.  The distinguishing factor in a pseudo-bifilar coil as compared to a regular coil is the capability to store more capacitative energy.  So when you look at pulse motor applications you can see that typically the capacitative energy is far too small to have any affect on the operation of the pulse motor.

Quote
What I claim as my invention is
1 A coil for electric apparatus the adjacent convolutions of which form parts of the circuit between which there exists a potential difference sufficient to secure in the coil a capacity capable of neutralizing its self induction as hereinbefore described.
 
2 A coil composed of contiguous or adjacent insulated conductors electrically connected in series and having a potential difference of such value as to give to the coil as a whole a capacity sufficient to neutralize its self induction as set forth.

NIKOLA TESLA Witnesses ROBT F GAYLORD PARKER W PAGE

You:

Quote
What I see is the effect of the increased capacitance on the resonant frequency as the main benefit of the way the "COIL FOR ELECTRO MAGNETS" is wound.
I think it's easy to see the inductance stores more energy than the capacitance but Tesla does not state that it does that.

Tesla is basically describing how a coil or a pseudo-bifilar coil can act like an LC resonator using 19th century English.  "capacity capable of neutralizing its self induction" just means that when the capacitative voltage is at its peak, the current in the coil is zero.

For some reason I always imagine Tesla with a 10-foot-high coil.  You can imagine putting DC current in at the top of the coil.  When you throw the knife switch as fast as you possibly can to disconnect the power source, the two terminals would start to undergo violent arcing.  By the time the switch contacts are a few inches apart the arcing would stop.  Then the coil would self-resonate with voltage peaks of perhaps a few hundred thousand volts.  It would be a dangerous and mean resonating machine for several seconds or perhaps tens of seconds.  If the frequency is high enough, I presume it would radiate some of its stored energy out into space as EM waves.

What was Tesla's intended use for this pseudo-bifilar coil setup?  From my recollection in reading the patent he does not say.  He describes the fact that it will resonate.  Are there other writings that discuss applications?  I don't think they were intended to be used as small pick-up coils and driver coils in pulse motors or solenoids, etc.  It's possible that this was more like "pure research" by Tesla but I am only guessing.

MileHigh

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1052 on: April 18, 2013, 03:29:28 AM »
Yes there could be many factors playing a role. But the important things are it is very inefficient to do, and the energy transferred is relative to the Lenz drag.
I agree with you about what the supply see's. And the supply is what the word describes, it supplies all the energy for the setup.

I think Thane likes to just leave the driving motor or the "prime mover" energy consumption out of it. Which is just silly, in my opinion.

It's not OU until it outputs more energy as useful loads than is input by the operator (us).

Why do they say it is ? That's what I don't understand.

Cheers

P.S. MileHigh I do see your point about the stored energy, But rather than being stored and resonant as in when there is no load isn't it transferred more directly with no Q ? Kinda like by transformer action.

...

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1053 on: April 18, 2013, 03:43:13 AM »
Synchro1:

I tried for 15 minutes on Google to find any references to bifilar coils used in electromagnets and could not find any.  I found lots of companies that make big electromagnets, companies that sell scrap yard cranes with electromagnets, etc.  I found out that they also sell giant magnets to do the same thing.  in this case the coil will briefly neutralize the magnetic field to drop the scrap metal.  That sounds like a more efficient way to do it.  I asked you for references before about the scrapyard elecromagnets being "bifilar" or "pseudo-bifilar" but you did not reply.

Here is the fundamental issue for you to consider:  Why would a pseudo-bifilar pancake coil make a better electromagnet as compared to a regular pancake coil?  I can't think of a logical reason for that to be true.  When I visualize the effects of regular vs. pseudo-bifilar in my mind I don't see any differences in the field generation.

I also have presented evidence to back up my claims and made a reference or two.

Here is a great link that I found:  "Factors affecting inductance."

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_15/3.html

MileHigh

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1054 on: April 18, 2013, 03:43:39 AM »
Milehigh, No prob's, I see now why you made the calculations. Very informative as well.

As far as a use for the coil, I think he states that from lines 26 to 31 of page 1 of the patent.  :)

At the time probably useful in ways we don't immediately think of. Maybe not practical any more because of the supply of good cheap capacitors.

One use I can see for it would be to lower the resonant frequency of a Pulsed electromagnet or something without an external capacitor.

Cheers

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1055 on: April 18, 2013, 03:53:49 AM »
"What was Tesla's intended use for this pseudo-bifilar coil setup? From my recollection in reading the patent he does not say. He describes the fact that it will resonate. Are there other writings that discuss applications? I don't think they were intended to be used as small pick-up coils and driver coils in pulse motors or solenoids, etc. It's possible that this was more like "pure research" by Tesla but I am only guessing".

MileHigh
 
Look at the top of this Patent. It reads: "COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNET"! Is this what your refering to with that extraneous rubbish you coined to describe it?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1056 on: April 18, 2013, 03:59:54 AM »
Synchro1, all coils are electromagnets with the exception of toroidal coils.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1057 on: April 18, 2013, 04:15:56 AM »
Farmhand:

Thanks I went back and read lines 26 to 31 and also lines 43 to 54.   ;D

So it is indeed to overcome capacitor limitations!  You can imagine that 10-foot coil. When it starts to get "really excited" and generate massive voltages it could start to form internal arcing.  So it looks like Tesla took up the challenge of spacing the loops of the coils and possibly adding a dielectric between the loops to make an impressive "self resonating machine" that was not prone to internal arcing.   And then at the end he just says that he has made an LC resonator within the inherent design of the coil.

So there is no planned "killer app" for the coil.  Yes, it generates a magnetic field.

That's the way it looks to me.

Also, just look at how capacitors are made, all the different types.  That kind of tech simply didn't exist in Tesla's time.  It's actually very difficult to make a capacitor at home that has a significant capacitance.  I am not counting the more recent "gray electrolytic goop" stuff that some people try.  I never read those threads so I don't know how successful those attempts are.

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1058 on: April 18, 2013, 04:18:54 AM »
Synchro1, all coils are electromagnets with the exception of toroidal coils.

That's why this one's special. This coil was labeled specifically for "Electromagnets" may have better been labled anything! Because what else may Tesla really have been thinking? That poses a huge mystery for the rest us, right Holmes? Not so much of a hint of it's intended use?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1059 on: April 18, 2013, 04:35:11 AM »
Synchro1:

You are also forgetting the context of the times.  Almost no one understood electricity.  But they did see electromagnets, in the telegraph office, perhaps to operate traffic lights, etc.  So "electromagnet" was common parlance in those days and considered a new high tech wonder.  You are reading too much into the use of the word.  Try reviewing the material about ampere-turns and visualizing the toroidal magnetic field each loop of wire makes.  All the toroids from all the loops add together.  There is nothing to distinguish the even loops from the odd loops.  They simply all add together to make the toroidal field that the coil projects into space.

Farmhand:

I agree with you about Thane's logic.

Quote
MileHigh I do see your point about the stored energy, But rather than being stored and resonant as in when there is no load isn't it transferred more directly with no Q ? Kinda like by transformer action.

I am not sure what transfer you are talking about.  I assume that Tesla tried to optimize the Q factor for his setups.  If you can explain more I will try to respond.

MileHigh

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1060 on: April 18, 2013, 05:06:36 AM »

Farmhand:

I agree with you about Thane's logic.

Quote
MileHigh I do see your point about the stored energy, But rather than being stored and resonant as in when there is no load isn't it transferred more directly with no Q ? Kinda like by transformer action.

I am not sure what transfer you are talking about.  I assume that Tesla tried to optimize the Q factor for his setups.  If you can explain more I will try to respond.

MileHigh

Slight misunderstanding, I didn't clarify, I was referring to just a regular high impedance coil used by Thane ect. Or even to the single winding coil I used with a capacitor across it to lower it's frequency enough to hit the harmonics. I wasn't referring to Tesla's coil there. My bad.

In this short clip, we can see the input current reduce from almost 2.5 amps from the 12 volt battery to about 2 amps from the 12 volt battery while accelerating under short circuit, the reason being the load or draw on the battery is reduced, the reason for that is the motor is seeing less load, and the reason for that is the reduction of the induced drag on the generator rotor. How the load on the rotor is reduced is irrelevant because the input power dropped only slightly when loaded by the bulb which was only 3 watts rated I think. But the input was around 30 Watts unloaded and dropped to about 24 Watts when shorted. Either figure is seriously inefficient no matter how it is looked at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFWin-crxQY

The same thing happens when a transformer is driven to resonance (max voltage) the input to do that at idle is increased as compared to not, then when the load is added the parameters are changed and the setup is put "out of tune" so the input drops and unloads the supply, the output is dismal of course, as is predicted by the MIT lecture I linked.

At least part of the reason for the behavior/effect is already predicted by conventional knowledge.

Cheers



Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1061 on: April 18, 2013, 05:37:52 AM »
Farmhand:

I can suggest a theory that may explain what happens in your clip.  The first step is the fact that a shorted pick-up coil is likely to be a very low load on the rotor because there is no power being transferred into the "load."  The basic idea is that open-circuit is no load, a short is no load, and somewhere in between those two extremes is the matching load for maximum power transfer and 50% efficiency.

In addition, I believe the shorted coil should remove the most or all of the cogging.  A simple spin-down test comparison with no load resistor and a "zero ohm" load resistor should confirm this.  When the rotor magnets pass the shorted coils currents will be induced into the coils to make the coil and it's core "disappear."

So there is a possible mechanism for the speed up just like you stated - less rotor resistance because cogging and radial stresses nearly eliminated when coils shorted and no power transferred into the zero-ohm "load."

I made reference to the motor being a complex electro-mechanical impedance.  There is a good chance that the motor has two or more stabilization points with respect to the RPM.  So you got a speed up with the short, and that resulted in the motor "landing" at a different speed stabilization point.  That is not an unusual phenomenon at all.

Cheers,

MileHigh

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1062 on: April 18, 2013, 05:42:58 AM »
Synchro1:

I tried for 15 minutes on Google to find any references to bifilar coils used in electromagnets and could not find any. 



Hmm. Im not even going to look.  Back when I was just introduced to the series bifilar coil, I did searches and all it came up with was bifilar relay windings, audio transformers and switching supplies, etc., and finally pulse motor coils on youtube. There are many search results for them, I tell ya what, be back in one min.... I just Yahooed 'bifilar coil and got over 215,000 results.  ;) A relay coil is an electromagnet and some are 'bifilar'. ;) In this case, one winding is finer wire than the other. A rated current needs to be applied to both windings in parallel in order to get enough field to pull the contacts closed. Once pulled the heavier winding is disconnected while the thinner winding remains connected to the on source till the relay is no longer needed to be on.

It is a way of saving power if a relay is intended to be on for long periods. They were used in LARGE relays I used to work with at Union Switch and Signal. The contacts are carrying large amounts of currents so the spring to unload the contacts is pretty strong, so a decent amount of power is required to pull the contacts together. But the 'holding' current is much less once the contacts are already pulled shut. So energy is saved by switching over to the thinner winding once pulled. Some of the boxes were 40 footers holding many racks of relays, so saving on power was a wise decision. These switch boxes were for railroad and subway controls and signaling, all vital equipment as lives depend on them. So running the relays cooler in these situations is preferred also and provides higher reliability.

Lets just call them 'series bifilar coils'. As 'pseudo' , as you like to describe it means pretend, fake, or sham. I asked you the other day what you meant by pseudo. Its your way of discrediting bifilar coils, as we understand them to be, described by the great Tesla himself in his patent way back in 1893. You are the only person I have ever heard the term from. So now that everyone is on the same page, lets just describe them as series bifilar coils. SBC if you like. Or SB  Series bifi, as I have found that others that have experience with them get what Im saying right away. But using pseudo, quasi seems to have 'us' asking, what do you mean.  ;)

And Quasi  'resembling' 'having some, but not all of the features of' is still a bit of a negative term to apply to something that is held of higher value by others.

And even 'true' bifilar. Describing some different winding than what is being discussed as if what we are discussing is false in comparison. ??? ::)

Do you find it hard to believe that I or even we might take notice to these things?

Your version of a 'true bifilar' verses our 'fake coils' 'sham coils' 'pretend coils'. I know you will no holds barred put all you can into 'talking' points of why these coils are useless compared to True coils.  ::) Common man. ;D

Can you see what Im getting at with your clever choices of wording and how some might take it, if they take a close look at what you are saying? ;)

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1063 on: April 18, 2013, 05:55:52 AM »
Magluvin:

I have no problem calling them SBC's and that's a lot easier to type.

But I have to state strongly you are wrong about my use of the term "pseudo."  "Pseudo" is also a technical term and it in no way is it meant to be, or is it an attempt to be, derogatory.  It's never been an issue.  It just means "looks like" in this context.  The truth is SBC's don't even look like bifilar coils and I just used that term anyways.  It's just because of my desire to distinguish between two completely different coil configurations.  The uncertainty stresses me out.

No doubt you will find references to bifilar coils if you search.  But the links will be about "true bifilar" coils.  I was looking for junkyard electromagnet SBC's and came up zip.

MileHigh


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1064 on: April 18, 2013, 06:48:11 AM »
From what Im just beginning to understand more recently is that the SB in Teslas pat is intended as an electro magnet, and that when input is applied, the capacitance increase 'within' the coil neutralizes the self inductance of the coil so current flows much faster right from the start thus producing a stronger magnetic field.  After all, the output property of an 'electromagnet' is a magnetic field. ;) So the objective is a stronger magnetic field. ;)

MH may be right about the coil resistances reading the same in the SB configuration. I have to test that myself. But the initial field production is much quicker from the beginning because currents flow much quicker due to the 'internal' capacitance. We cannot compare that to just adding a capacitor to a coil ad call it the same. A normal coil is going to take in what its given as the impedance allows over time.

In the case of the nail with wire wound on it, if there is more capacitance within the bifi coil compared to the normal wound nail, then the SB nail could result in more field due to this current input rush as compared to the impeding, slower building, normal coil.

It is said that if you attach a magnet to a metal bar and measure the holding strength before release right away as compared to leaving the mag on the metal for a longer period of time, the one that was there the longest will have the stronger hold. So if the inrush of the bifi is stronger initially than the normal coils full current, then the nail could have a stronger field even once the SB coil settles to full constant current flow. Especially if there are metal objects to be picked up added to the end of the core(nail) 'initially'.

I would imagine that 'if' the sb coil can pick up more staples or paper clips well after the sb coil is connected to the battery, then it should pick up even more if the nail is already in contact with the staples before the current is applied. This is just my thoughts on it before doing tests.

And then there is the indisputable lowering of resonant freq with the added capacitance that is what I am interested in also.

Then there is their use in a transformer. What would be the effects if the capacitance is built into the coil(in the transformer) rather than external? I have a n ecore prepped for my home made litz winding I will be making this weekend to see. ;) The litz will be made with 7 strands stretched out between 2 mixing sticks and then then slowly twist the stick on one end til it is wound into one wire. And all the ends will be ready for capacitance readings to get things as balanced as possible. And a 7th strand to test out shorting  along the way. So testing of the sb in the transformer as a primary and as a secondary will be done.

Mags