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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 756429 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1005 on: April 16, 2013, 03:22:39 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1006 on: April 16, 2013, 04:13:16 AM »
Synchro1:

Here is the key point from your link:

Quote
The same amount of voltage, from the same battery, produces twice as much energy in the bifilar wound coil as in the single wound coil.  This is just one of the many techniques Nikola Tesla used to make his inventions highly efficient.

I am not set up to do any experiments.  On the other hand I have years of experience working on a bench.  I am still assuming were are talking about a pseudo-bifilar coil here like I defined it in my previous posting.  I also explained the logic:  It's the ampere-turns that determine the strength of the magnetic field.  Both coil configurations will give you the same number of ampere-turns.  The fact that this guy makes reference to voltage in his statement instead of current is an indicator that he most likely a beginner to this stuff himself.  It's just one of millions of pages on the Internet, it's not necessarily true.  In fact, his conclusion is false.  Please trust me, I am not stating this to make a fuss.  I am qualifying this guy for you and telling you in all honesty that he is wrong.  You can spend a few hours and find hundreds and hundreds of websites that will confirm what I am saying.

On the other hand, what is your reason for the two coils being different in magnetic field strength?  Can you back up your statement with a logical argument?  Forget about that guy's web page, what are your thoughts?  What about the inductance?

Look, each loop in the entire coil, whether it comes from the "even field" coil, or the "odd field" coil is wrapped around the nail.  Each loop is like a miniature magnetic field generator.  They are all lined up in a row and contribute to the total magnetic field.  The nail "doesn't care" if the loop is from the "even field" coil or the "odd field" coil.  All the nail knows is that there are loops of wire around it generating a magnetic field and every loop has the same amount of current flowing through it.  Can you see that?

If you can see that then that's good.  The goal is to be able to know the basic fundamentals and then apply that knowledge to other configurations.  I can look at a set of pick-up coils and rotor magnets have a decent idea of what the output waveform will look like before I even hook up a scope.

MileHigh

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1007 on: April 16, 2013, 05:13:43 AM »
Synchro1:



I didn't say that, perhaps you misunderstood me.  We are always talking about a "pseudo" or "quasi" bifilar coil, right?  It's just one conductor with interlaced windings.  Sort of like an old NTSC or PAL video frame with odd and even fields.  What I said is that the interlacing will not make a significant change as compared to a regularly wound coil assuming the same number of turns for the vast majority of coil applications.  That is the key point.  Do you agree with that?

I don't really understand what your point is here or understand what your setup is.  Could you make a schematic and show what voltages you want to compare?  I am actually pretty knowledgeable about electronics, did you see my comments on Conrad's scope shots?

MileHigh

Syncro posted the diagram 2 pages back #982

I dont think its the same as you have been describing, quasi or even pseudo as I dont recall Tesla calling it that. And he invented it. Got a patent and all. Pat. 512,340 ;)

In Syncros diagram pic, it describes some facts as to the coil style Syncro is talking about.


Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1008 on: April 16, 2013, 05:50:08 AM »
Magluvin:

For the clip you linked to:

Note in the beginning of the clip that he says both coils under test have the same length of wire.  That means that they both have to measure approximately the same resistance.  It's impossible for the pseudo-bifilar coil configuration to change the measured resistance as he seems to be implying.

What he calls the "regular" coil has roughly 11 ohms and the the "pseudo-bifilar" coil has roughly 6 ohms.  That suggests that the "regular" coil is twice as long as the "pseudo-bifilar" coil and has twice as many turns.

The "regular" coil measures roughly 2.8 mH.  The "pseudo-bifilar" coil measures roughly 0.7 mH.  So the "regular" coil is four times the inductance of the "pseudo-bifilar" coil.  That's exactly what you would expect if the "regular" coil was twice as many turns as the "pesudo-bifilar" coil.

So it appears that he is looking at one coil of 2N turns and a second coil of N turns.  That way all the measurements make sense.  There is a good chance that the coil with the 2N turns consists of interleaved "odd field" and "even field" interlaced turns around the drum.

So it is a mix-up on his part, but it all makes sense, you just have to "read between the lines" and reorganize.

Finally, he connects his capacitance meter to the coils.  In the setup he has that only marginally makes sense.  You simply can't connect up a capacitance meter to an inductor and get a reliable reading.  You can't be sure what the capacitance meter is doing and what frequencies it is using and at low frequencies the capacitance meter will start seeing something that looks like a short circuit when it's expecting to see an open circuit.  To make an attempt to truly measure the inherent self-capacitance of big coils like that you would have to do some measurements with a scope and a frequency generator.  He is blissfully unaware of this.

I am using the term pseudo-bifilar coil to distinguish it from a true bifilar coil to avoid confusion in case people start talking about true bifilar coils.  The drawing in posting #982 is a pseudo-bifilar coil.  I discussed the bullet points in that drawing in an earlier posting and unfortunately they are misconceptions.

MileHigh

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1009 on: April 16, 2013, 06:52:53 AM »
Magluvin:

For the clip you linked to:

Note in the beginning of the clip that he says both coils under test have the same length of wire.  That means that they both have to measure approximately the same resistance.  It's impossible for the pseudo-bifilar coil configuration to change the measured resistance as he seems to be implying.

What he calls the "regular" coil has roughly 11 ohms and the the "pseudo-bifilar" coil has roughly 6 ohms.  That suggests that the "regular" coil is twice as long as the "pseudo-bifilar" coil and has twice as many turns.

The "regular" coil measures roughly 2.8 mH.  The "pseudo-bifilar" coil measures roughly 0.7 mH.  So the "regular" coil is four times the inductance of the "pseudo-bifilar" coil.  That's exactly what you would expect if the "regular" coil was twice as many turns as the "pesudo-bifilar" coil.

So it appears that he is looking at one coil of 2N turns and a second coil of N turns.  That way all the measurements make sense.  There is a good chance that the coil with the 2N turns consists of interleaved "odd field" and "even field" interlaced turns around the drum.

So it is a mix-up on his part, but it all makes sense, you just have to "read between the lines" and reorganize.

Finally, he connects his capacitance meter to the coils.  In the setup he has that only marginally makes sense.  You simply can't connect up a capacitance meter to an inductor and get a reliable reading.  You can't be sure what the capacitance meter is doing and what frequencies it is using.  To make an attempt to truly measure the inherent self-capacitance of big coils like that you would have to do some measurements with a scope and a frequency generator.  He is blissfully unaware of this.

I am using the term pseudo-bifilar coil to distinguish it from a true bifilar coil to avoid confusion in case people start talking about true bifilar coils.

MileHigh

"Note in the beginning of the clip that he says both coils under test have the same length of wire.  That means that they both have to measure approximately the same resistance.  It's impossible for the pseudo-bifilar coil configuration to change the measured resistance as he seems to be implying."

Is it?  ;)

"What he calls the "regular" coil has roughly 11 ohms and the the "pseudo-bifilar" coil has roughly 6 ohms.  That suggests that the "regular" coil is twice as long as the "pseudo-bifilar" coil and has twice as many turns."

But he is using the same coils as you quoted above "Note in the beginning of the clip that he says both coils under test have the same length of wire."  I did not see him change the coils to one with more turns and one with less. And he clearly specifies that he knows what people might be thinking when it comes to those measurements. I think he has dotted his I's. Im going to wind some coils such as these to try some things to post some vids. Its simple enough.

"The "regular" coil measures roughly 2.8 mH.  The "pseudo-bifilar" coil measures roughly 0.7 mH.  So the "regular" coil is four times the inductance of the "pseudo-bifilar" coil.  That's exactly what you would expect if the "regular" coil was twice as many turns as the "pesudo-bifilar" coil."

Im not sure where you are getting that 1 coil has more turns than the other as those are the first talking points as to each coil having the same amount of copper and the same amount of 'total' turns, just wired differently. But by visual inspection should look identical except for the connections at the ends. The increase in capacitance, as Tesla has stated in his patent is that the capacitance 'neutralizes' the self inductance of any given current that may be employed. So thats why the inductance measured lower. ;)


"So it appears that he is looking at one coil of 2N turns and a second coil of N turns.  That way all the measurements make sense.  There is a good chance that the coil with the 2N turns consists of interleaved "odd field" and "even field" interlaced turns around the drum."

When he is testing the coils for resistance and inductance, he is only testing the coils of the same total number of turns. He did show a third coil earlier but stated it was for trying the difference of interlaced series bifi and a different way of having 2 layers, where the top layer starts at the beginning on top of the first thus giving 50% of input voltage difference between inner and outer adjacent turns. I havnt seen if he made a vid on that yet. But I think it might not be as effective at 'neutralizing' the self inductance as the series interlaced, as the first and second layers still have their adjacent connecting turn acting like a normal coil voltage difference between adjacent windings. I think it would be somewhere in between series bifi and a standard coil with a cap across its leads. And I only say that it is between the 2 because the capacitance is still built into the windings, just not between every successive connecting turn. 
And he has the coils labeled as to what they are.


"Finally, he connects his capacitance meter to the coils.  In the setup he has that only marginally makes sense.  You simply can't connect up a capacitance meter to an inductor and get a reliable reading.  You can't be sure what the capacitance meter is doing and what frequencies it is using.  To make an attempt to truly measure the inherent self-capacitance of big coils like that you would have to do some measurements with a scope and a frequency generator.  He is blissfully unaware of this."

I have to agree. The best way to measure the capacitance is to measure the capacitance between the 2 windings while the windings are open on each end, as in not series connected, not connected to anything but the C meter. Measuring the capacitance of a normally wound coil, straight 1 layer as shown, I would have to say that you could wind 2 turns, each of individual wire on the core alone. Then measure the capacitance of the 2 pieces of wire next to each other as if they were adjacent turns. Then count the spaces between all turns and divide that measured capacitance by that number. Yes divide, because those capacitances are in series. Thats a huge decrease in capacitance as a whole within the coil. lol the more turns, the less capacitance!! That is a normal coil.

Ive said it for a while now, 2 turns is a series bifi because of Teslas definition of the voltage differences across adjacent turns. But with 2 turns, we dont have much capacitance anyways. But it does fall within the guidelines.  ;)

Now, a series wound bifi, the Tesla kind  ;) , the more turns you have, the more capacitance you have. Quite the opposite of a normal coil where its capacitance decreases with more turns.

So if looking to measure or test the abilities of a bifi compared to a regular coil, I would suggest many turns. The more the better, and for a normal coil, the more the worse.

Testing coils with only a small number of turns will have less noticeable differences, and less detail about those differences. So many many turns to see things more clearly. ;)

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1010 on: April 16, 2013, 06:55:51 AM »


I am using the term pseudo-bifilar coil to distinguish it from a true bifilar coil to avoid confusion in case people start talking about true bifilar coils.  The drawing in posting #982 is a pseudo-bifilar coil.  I discussed the bullet points in that drawing in an earlier posting and unfortunately they are misconceptions.


What is a true bifilar? 

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1011 on: April 16, 2013, 07:11:16 AM »
A true bifilar coil is two windings with either four terminals or three terminals.  Three terminals means at one end they are joined together but there is an electrical connection made.  It means that two independent currents can travel in the two windings.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1012 on: April 16, 2013, 07:21:44 AM »
Just a mention about coil capacitance, isn't the best way is to determine it by experiment ?

With air core solenoids we can use calculators and compare with what is observed by experiment to confirm.

eg. if I take a coil wound to whatever specs and put the values into this calculator http://www.extremeelectronics.co.uk/calcs/index.php?page=oltc_calc.php
it can tell me the coils self capacitance and it's inductance as well as the effect of adding a known capacitance.
So if we know the inductance and we find the resonant frequency then the capacitance needed should be simple, by using
this calculator http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/LC-Calculator.htm we can put in the inductance and adjust the capacitance to get the observed
resonant frequency by experiment (function generator and scope).

some more calculators.

Spiral coil calculator
http://www.deepfriedneon.com/tesla_f_calcspiral.html

This one doesn't seem to work for me, but I'll include it because i might not be using it correctly.
https://www.rac.ca/tca/RF_Coil_Design.html

Wire properties guide
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/wire-cu.htm

Cheers

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1013 on: April 16, 2013, 07:25:21 AM »
A true bifilar coil is two windings with either four terminals or three terminals.  Three terminals means at one end they are joined together but there is an electrical connection made.  It means that two independent currents can travel in the two windings.

I see these used in switching supply transformers. I had not ever read the term 'True bifi'.

Its just like having separate secondary windings(outputs) but they have a common connection at the beginning or end of the wind.  Ive seen some audio transformers that claim bifilar windings, but I dont think they are series wound like Tesla intended. I have some files on that stuff. Would have to look deep.  :o ;D Maybe I can find it easier online. But it is something different totally.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1014 on: April 16, 2013, 07:31:24 AM »
Just a mention about coil capacitance, isn't the best way is to determine it by experiment ?



I agree. I have not seen a series bifi coil calculator. ;) Will be interesting to 'determine by experiment'  ;)

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1015 on: April 16, 2013, 07:42:03 AM »
Magluvin:

Note the resistance test for the coils is a DC test.  It can't be "fooled" by any arrangement of coil connections.  So he is clearly working with coils of two different lengths and number of turns.

Quote
Im not sure where you are getting that 1 coil has more turns than the other as those are the first talking points as to each coil having the same amount of copper and the same amount of 'total' turns, just wired differently. But by visual inspection should look identical except for the connections at the ends. The increase in capacitance, as Tesla has stated in his patent is that the capacitance 'neutralizes' the self inductance of any given current that may be employed. So thats why the inductance measured lower.

In theory it's possible but highly unlikely, perhaps if the inductance meter is poorly designed.  The thing to keep in mind is that in a coil, the inductance is millions of times higher than the capacitance in relative terms.  The capacitance is like a fly siting on an elephant which is the inductance, even with a pseudo-bifilar configration.

What happens in the time domain when you go to energize a coil that also possesses some capacitance?  The capacitance charges up nearly instantly, because that's what capacitors do.  Then the inductance takes over for a long time.  It's the old flywheel effect.  The current climbs in slow motion relative to the zippy capacitance current.  The inductance meter reads that, the slow current climb due to the inductance, it's doesn't read the minuscule capacitance and it's associated minuscule current which has almost no affect on the real operation of the inductor.

I haven't read too much about Tesla so I can only guess what he was up to with these kinds of coils.  It's possible that capacitor technology at the end of the 19th century was barely starting so he was improvising.  Perhaps Tesla had these very large coils 10 feet high and he experimented with the interleaved coil winding to use these giant coils as a energy storage device - a giant LC resonator.  If you can imagine putting 100 amps through a giant coil and then disconnecting the DC feed, then the coil would self-resonate for x seconds.  With the inductance being so large and the capacitance so small, the voltages generated across the self-resonating coil would have been very high.  You can go to a coil calculator site and calculate the inductance for a giant coil.  Then make up a very small capacitance value.  Assume the resistance of the coil is quite low.  Then go to an LC resonator sim site and punch in the numbers and see what happens.  As the capacitance value gets lower the peak voltage will go towards millions of volts.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1016 on: April 16, 2013, 07:44:49 AM »
Farmhand:

I didn't even know that there were sim sites that would give you an associated capacitance for a given inductor geometry.  You learn something new every day as they say.

MileHigh

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1017 on: April 16, 2013, 07:58:32 AM »
Magluvin:

Note the resistance test for the coils is a DC test.  It can't be "fooled" by any arrangement of coil connections.  So he is clearly working with coils of two different lengths and number of turns.

In theory it's possible but highly unlikely, perhaps if the inductance meter is poorly designed.  The thing to keep in mind is that in a coil, the inductance is millions of times higher than the capacitance in relative terms.  The capacitance is like a fly siting on an elephant which is the inductance, even with a pseudo-bifilar configration.

What happens in the time domain when you go to energize a coil that also possesses some capacitance?  The capacitance charges up nearly instantly, because that's what capacitors do.  Then the inductance takes over for a long time.  It's the old flywheel effect.  The current climbs in slow motion relative to the zippy capacitance current.  The inductance meter reads that, the slow current climb due to the inductance, it's doesn't read the minuscule capacitance and it's associated minuscule current which has almost no affect on the real operation of the inductor.

I haven't read too much about Tesla so I can only guess what he was up to with these kinds of coils.  It's possible that capacitor technology at the end of the 19th century was barely starting so he was improvising.  Perhaps Tesla had these very large coils 10 feet high and he experimented with the interleaved coil winding to use these giant coils as a energy storage device - a giant LC resonator.  If you can imagine putting 100 amps through a giant coil and then disconnecting the DC feed, then the coil would self-resonate for x seconds.  With the inductance being so large and the capacitance so small, the voltages generated across the self-resonating coil would have been very high.  You can go to a coil calculator site and calculate the inductance for a giant coil.  Then make up a very small capacitance value.  Assume the resistance of the coil is quite low.  Then go to an LC resonator sim site and punch in the numbers and see what happens.  As the capacitance value gets lower the peak voltage will go towards millions of volts.

MileHigh


"In theory it's possible but highly unlikely, perhaps if the inductance meter is poorly designed.  The thing to keep in mind is that in a coil, the inductance is millions of times higher than the capacitance in relative terms.  The capacitance is like a fly siting on an elephant which is the inductance, even with a pseudo-bifilar configration."

When you say 'pseudo', what does that imply exactly?  Yes the capacitance of a coil is very tiny indeed. But the series bifi increases it dramatically in comparison to a normal coil. And the more turns in the series bifi, the more capacitance, where as a normal coil, the capacitance becomes less with more turns.

"What happens in the time domain when you go to energize a coil that also possesses some capacitance?  The capacitance charges up nearly instantly, because that's what capacitors do.  Then the inductance takes over for a long time."

Yes!  Being that the series bifi has much more capacitance, the series bifi charges up more and quicker, being that the larger internal capacitance neutralizes the self inductance.

"Assume the resistance of the coil is quite low.  Then go to an LC resonator sim site and punch in the numbers and see what happens.  As the capacitance value gets lower the peak voltage will go towards millions of volts."

Is there a calculator for series bifilar coils?  As they have a different nature. Trying to read them with meters give erratic results as compared to a normal coil.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1018 on: April 16, 2013, 08:02:59 AM »


I haven't read too much about Tesla so I can only guess what he was up to with these kinds of coils.  It's possible that capacitor technology at the end of the 19th century was barely starting so he was improvising.


http://www.free-energy-info.com/TeslaPatents/US0512340.pdf

Its only 2 pages of description.  ;)

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1019 on: April 16, 2013, 08:07:44 AM »
Final comment about an inductor with an associated capacitance.  How does it respond in the frequency domain?

We know that as you sweep the frequency higher, the inductor will show an increasing impedance.  As the frequency tends towards infinity, the impedance of the inductor tends towards infinity.

What happens is that above a certain high frequency, the very small capacitance starts to take over.  So above a certain frequency the impedance of the inductor starts to drop, and it will tend to go towards zero as the frequency tends towards infinity.

The converse applies to capacitors, as the frequency tends towards infinity, the small inductance associated with the capacitor starts to take over, and the impedance tends towards infinity.

(I am simplifying in the examples above to keep it relatively simple.)

Those are basic nuts and bolts to keep in mind.  The example that most will relate to is the gate capacitance for a MOSFET.  At very high frequencies, power can pass through the MOSFET via the gate capacitance because the impedance is very low.  That can screw up very precise measurements at high frequency.

MileHigh