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#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2011, 07:12:05 PM »
Hi everyone,

The reason I had a restless night is this:

An overunity device is normally classified by standard efficiency calculation...

Power In / Power Out = Efficiency %

A device can be classified this way and is either underunity, unity, or overunity...

<100%... =100%... >100%

The problem here is that the device is most definitely overunity, producing more power out than in, but without a value for power in it defies classification by the OU % model as I understand it.

So if we classify it as a Free Energy device, which it most certainly is, as User Input = Zero, we also cannot calculate it's efficiency without a Power In value.

In the example of a solar panel it is possible to measure the amount of sunlight hitting the panel giving you a power in value, and it is possible to calculate the efficiency of conversion of that total light to electrical output, giving you a power out value.

A solar panel is typically about 20% efficient and so is underunity, but as user input = zero, that 20% is free energy to the user.

In the case of Bill's device it is both overunity and free energy but no efficiency calculation is possible as User Power In = Zero, and, Environment Power In = Unknown

So, at this stage it must be assumed that power available to the system from the Environment is infinity, and therefore power out from the system also is infinity â€“ conversion losses.

It will be very important to scientifically analyse the relationship between all components of the system to see if there is a particular factor that affects the relationship (ie resistance etc).

And also if the scaling up process demonstrates linear or non-linear trends for each particular factor.

This is just a preliminary overview of what gave me a restless night, and I know that a lot of you understand this. I wrote this for the people that are learning and just getting into the subject who might otherwise attribute my sleepness night to too much coffee

RM

RM -- You wrote,
Power In / Power Out = Efficiency %

I'm quite sure you wrote the ratio UPSIDE DOWN; it should be:

Power OUT   / Power IN = Efficiency %

Power in comes from -- gasoline (in a generator) or the sun (solar panels) or the grid (e.g., for an invertor), battery (flashlight), etc.

In Bill's case, his "power in" is ZERO, so the efficiency becomes VERY large ("infinite").  That's what makes this so exciting.

Bill -- it looks indeed like you're doing this with an altruistic and anti-suppression approach -- which is what I and many have also espoused.  WONDERFUL!
(This is what I did with my solar-funnel cooker invention nearly 20 years ago; patent applied for, but no patent, and then we spread the details of HOW TO world wide.  Now the solar funnel cooker is ALL OVER the globe, particularly Haiti, Bolivia, Phillipines, Kenya, etc.) -- cooking food cheaply for families.)

I would add -- encourage RAPID replications and announcements of successful replications, and encourage getting these into the LOCAL media such as newspapers, TV news -- and YouTube etc.

Then this could go viral.
(And unstoppable by the globalist-power-controllers  even, I think.)

Expect opposition even then (e.g. -- "impossible -- perpetual motion -- BAH-Humbug" and "fraud"), but these voices can be quickly overcome by experimental proofs -- replications -- and appropriate media attention.

Very exciting.

#### evolvingape

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 478
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2011, 07:26:53 PM »
RM -- You wrote,
Power In / Power Out = Efficiency %

I'm quite sure you wrote the ratio UPSIDE DOWN; it should be:

Power OUT   / Power IN = Efficiency %

Yes your right... Good spot... oops...

Thanks for pointing that out... I had not noticed

RM

#### dougotio

• Newbie
• Posts: 16
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2011, 07:29:51 PM »
Good luck Bill,
I enjoyed the talk we had this AM on the phone. I am looking forward to the live demo.
Doug

P.S. are there others in the Portland OR. area who would like to get together and discuss what we are doing? I am in Jefferson, OR. We could meet at Bills' demo?
I know we all wish the best for Bill! These are exciting times. Maybe we will see "Galt's Gulch" yet. lol

#### NerzhDishual

• Hero Member
• Posts: 588
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2011, 07:45:49 PM »
Hi Guys,

This post is just to get notifications.

BTW : this Bill Mehess's mysterious device sounds great. I can't wait.

Very Best

#### e2matrix

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1953
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2011, 07:53:54 PM »
< snip <

Again at the demo everything will be revealed-EVERYTHING and personal replication will be encourged. After the demo I will launch a wbsite and  make detailed plans and upgrades available at a very nominal cost. < snip <

I fully encourage this idea and would be glad to purchase plans to support you as well as making this device myself.

I still am concerned in the ways evolvingpage is about some things stated.  Have you considered an open source GNU style patent?  This would avoid the possibility of the NoSuchAgency slapping you down immediately with a national security order.  But then I guess you already have the patent app?  I'm not sure if it hits their radar until it's in the P.O.

My other concern is what has been stated here concerning defending patents.  All very true if it's you-the-little-guy versus a big corporation.

I'm hoping your deal at OMSI works out.  I had a science project there long ago and really like that place.

I hate to add more to your plate right now but I haven't seen this specifically mentioned.  And having awareness can help planning but I sincerely hope it does not add to any stress.  Here is the deal - I've been involved in a specific electronic based tech for many years as a hobby.  I have seen many people stateside try to build and manufacture some of this tech to sell.  In every case it took them roughly 1 to 2 years to get it out the door.  Repeatedly the Chinese were latching onto the same new ideas and new component upgrades and getting it out the door in about 1 or 2 months.  And with good quality in most cases and in some cases even better than the U.S. made products.  So if this hits the radar over in China they'll have a product going full production and available to sell for cheap before you can even setup for production.  I welcome any ideas anyone may have to prevent this.  I may be wrong but I think it's a scenario to at least be aware of.

#### billmehess

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 359
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2011, 08:03:57 PM »
I fully encourage this idea and would be glad to purchase plans to support you as well as making this device myself.

I still am concerned in the ways evolvingpage is about some things stated.  Have you considered an open source GNU style patent?  This would avoid the possibility of the NoSuchAgency slapping you down immediately with a national security order.  But then I guess you already have the patent app?  I'm not sure if it hits their radar until it's in the P.O.

My other concern is what has been stated here concerning defending patents.  All very true if it's you-the-little-guy versus a big corporation.

I'm hoping your deal at OMSI works out.  I had a science project there long ago and really like that place.

I hate to add more to your plate right now but I haven't seen this specifically mentioned.  And having awareness can help planning but I sincerely hope it does not add to any stress.  Here is the deal - I've been involved in a specific electronic based tech for many years as a hobby.  I have seen many people stateside try to build and manufacture some of this tech to sell.  In every case it took them roughly 1 to 2 years to get it out the door.  Repeatedly the Chinese were latching onto the same new ideas and new component upgrades and getting it out the door in about 1 or 2 months.  And with good quality in most cases and in some cases even better than the U.S. made products.  So if this hits the radar over in China they'll have a product going full production and available to sell for cheap before you can even setup for production.  I welcome any ideas anyone may have to prevent this.  I may be wrong but I think it's a scenario to at least be aware of.
I could build and get one of these "out the door" within 1 day. Hopefully I will need to get more than one out the door per day. It would be nice to be able to give people jobs to do this.
That really is the whole idea anyway isn't it?

#### giantkiller

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2791
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2011, 08:11:44 PM »
No disrespect meant:
This device must not be placed in any government document. You do this and they are part of the bargain. Laws will be shown in violation.
You mentioned commercialization. In economic terms that means a transfer of money. I specifically state the term money as to not declare a country of basis.

You apply for a patent. The government now has an interest on their behalf, not yours.
You attain a business license. The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.
You accept a country's denomination. The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.

You have specifically mentioned involvement with all 3. The government now has  an interest(x3) on their behalf, not yours.

Is the college of your presentation a U.S. accredited college? The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.

Is the PHD you mentioned honored by a U.S. accredited college? The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.

Does this college receive state or federal aid? The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.

Have you posted this information using U.S. owned, licensed equipment or protocols? The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.

Are you transporting this technology on state or federally owned transit ways? The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.

Do you have a license to operate the type of equipment you have announced on state or federal property? The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.

Does this technology stop U.S. citizens from exercising their freedoms? The government now has  an interest on their behalf, not yours.
Say what? Yes, that is correct. The U.S. government has permitted it's citizens to transport a publicy sold explosive chemical on state or funded transit ways in personally licensed, sanctified carriers. You bought that permit by the exercise of tranferrence of federal notes from a licensed payroll distribution entity to a licensed retail distribution entity for the purchase of gasoline. All three entities are licensed to perform at their level of tasks. The public is permitted to transfer monetary denominations between the other two licensed entities.

Was there an advertisement of a new power source not licensed by any governement? The government now has an interest on their behalf, not yours. Where the hell are your feet right now? What are you on standing on right now? Federal property by law of emminent domain. The process where the government has the right to purchase at fair market value or confiscation by seizure should there be an assessment of emminent danger to its citizens. By threatening the government sanctified life style and freedoms of any U.S. citizen you are now under the protection of federal authorities whereby you will isolated to protect the public and yourself from yourself.

By displacing the federally sanctioned ways of transit you have become a terrorist.
By disabling the oil distribution chain you have become a terrorist.
You have threatened to disrupt the world ecomony. You have become a terrorist.
You openly stated you would pay others to propagate this unlicensed technology. You are now recruiting terrorists.

Do we all now have a clue? We are pablum fed prisoners to start with.

#### e2matrix

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1953
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2011, 08:17:13 PM »
I could build and get one of these "out the door" within 1 day. Hopefully I will need to get more than one out the door per day. It would be nice to be able to give people jobs to do this.
That really is the whole idea anyway isn't it?

That will be wonderful if it can create jobs and if all goes well I'm sure it can create a bunch.

Call me worrisome but I just had another thought.  Or more of a question at this point if you can answer it now.  Is there anything in this invention that involves exotic, rare, hard to get, controlled materials or anything that otherwise could be severely limited by the PTB once it hits their radar?  If so maybe you could give a heads up on just that one thing now.  Hopefully there is nothing like that in the invention and even if some things might become scarce at some point they could be made by some of the more skilled individuals so that this could not be stopped by controlling a key ingredient.

#### ramset

• Hero Member
• Posts: 8055
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2011, 08:25:33 PM »
Geezz
And all I wanted was a light to read by.............

Open source of course!!

Chet

#### e2matrix

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1953
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2011, 08:34:22 PM »
giantkiller,  good to see you here.  I appreciate your take on this and while it may seem a bit over the top I think you have very valid statements.  I heard once from someone that any time there is a meeting of more than 7 (I believe that was the number but if not it was single digit) people that there will always be an government agent there to see what is going on.  While I find that hard to believe I do know that if something truly has potential to disrupt the 'status quo' that the PTB or gov will jump in big time.  However if this invention does not have the current potential to replace car engines as a power source and knowing that many people do not want to be 'off-grid' it might slip by.  In fact I don't even think at this time we know if this has the potential to power a home.  This was a question I asked a ways back here.  Even if it did have that potential my question was whether it would be affordable to scale it up that much and if it's real world usable in that way.
Exciting time here.  I truly hope it all goes well and Bill makes some good money on his idea and the world will greatly benefit.  If it can be done at a proper rate in the right way it will truly be game changing.  We just need to make DAMN SURE at this point that if this is really a game changer that it doesn't go down the toilet like everything else has up to this point.  It just may be that the power of the Internet will make that possible.

#### giantkiller

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2791
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2011, 08:36:24 PM »
That will be wonderful if it can create jobs and if all goes well I'm sure it can create a bunch.

Call me worrisome but I just had another thought.  Or more of a question at this point if you can answer it now.  Is there anything in this invention that involves exotic, rare, hard to get, controlled materials or anything that otherwise could be severely limited by the PTB once it hits their radar?  If so maybe you could give a heads up on just that one thing now.  Hopefully there is nothing like that in the invention and even if some things might become scarce at some point they could be made by some of the more skilled individuals so that this could not be stopped by controlling a key ingredient.

I can legally buy black powder. I can legally buy pipe fittings. I put the two together and I become an instant terrorist. The courts won't even take a breath to listen to my explanations.

A prison cell or running for your life is not the best time for realization. Although that is usually when it happens.

#### billmehess

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 359
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2011, 08:56:38 PM »
Giant killer - your a scary guy, but thank you for your input.

Also there are no exotic materials in the device of any kind. Like I said it could all be bought off the shelve at any hardware store. I could go into anyones home and find everything I need to build one of these. if the materials were in front of me it maight take me 10 minutes
Got to run out for a couple of hours.
Bill

#### Lakes

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 383
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2011, 09:06:04 PM »
No way would I ever post my phone number in a forum, like someone else said, lot of crazy people out there!

But good luck to Bills endeavors!

#### e2matrix

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1953
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2011, 09:36:30 PM »
Sounds like this could be scaled up just a little to claim Stefan's overunity prize right here for a little startup capital.  Also there's someone offering a million dollars I believe for a self running device but if I recall that guy may not be too much on the up and up.

Bill,  thanks for answering my question about the exotic materials.  That is good news.  Scary or not giantkiller is on our side.   You may be familiar with his work as he's been one of the major Steven Mark TPU builders for years.  IMO very smart guy on both electronics and his take on the PTB.  Most of what he's said does not have much effect on most people most of the time BUT when something game changing comes along it can become all to real all too fast.  I'm still thinking though that what you have here (just my wild speculation in my excitement about all this) is not going to be a threat any time in the near future to the PTB because of the relatively low power and cost of scaling it to big power that would be usable for cars and home power.  I hope I'm wrong on that but at least I believe it would insure this gets out to the world and would be very useful in third world countries as well as many low power devices elsewhere.

However if it is scalable to high power affordably I would propose an underground network of people to build and distribute it.  Ya' know something like they did with Moonshine in the 1920's.

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2011, 09:51:40 PM »
I can legally buy black powder. I can legally buy pipe fittings. I put the two together and I become an instant terrorist. The courts won't even take a breath to listen to my explanations.

A prison cell or running for your life is not the best time for realization. Although that is usually when it happens.

Look, no need to get "fear-mongering" here, my friend.

I've been a similar route with my solar-funnel cooker invention 15 years ago.  Even had a company try to "take" it from me, tried to prevent me from making these and selling them myself (although admitting I was the inventor).  I and my family had a few things going for us:

1.  We were selling cheaper than this "threatening" company could
2.  We had applied for a patent (although I admit, not sure that was helping much since the "company" seemed to have a variant or a way around that "protection")

(Result-- the board of directors of this company soon wrote me saying they had "reigned in" the person in their company threatening, and that I could go ahead and build and sell my invention freely.)

So I'm again urging Bill and all to consider using the media as a way to get PUBLIC SUPPORT -- and wish to emphasize this angle --

the Mehess invention will be a benefit to families in Third-world Countries... and you are making and giving a number of these FREE to these people.

The media eat this up -- and its furthermore true that your invention will benefit folks in third-world countries.  Sure, it might also benefit folks in the USA as well... but first get the PUBLIC supporting you, then the gov-mint and others will think twice before trying to suppress you or "take it" from you...

Some of you still don't believe my experience on this?  OK -- here's a very recent example -- and Bill you and replicators should be able to get into CNN (or like media) likewise.  Please think about it!  and I'd be glad to use my experience to help.  I also was very aware of the Pons/Fleischmann media flop -- they did it WRONG.  Replicators failed; scientists called them "frauds", etc.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-14/tech/solar.light.bulbs_1_bulbs-free-market-solar-light?_s=PM:TECH

Quote
...As Katsaros began researching markets in developing countries, he began to realize that his solar light bulb could potentially make a huge impact on the 1.4 billion people around the world who don't have access to an electrical grid.

Many use fuel lamps that burn kerosene, which is costly, dirty and can also be unhealthy.

He dubbed his company Nokero -- short for "No Kerosene" -- and set out to get his bulbs into as many hands a possible in the developing world.

First, Katsaros had to answer a key question that would determine how he would have the strongest impact: should his company be nonprofit, or for-profit?

Katsaros found inspiration from the 2008 book by Paul Polak, "Out of Poverty."

Polak, who has worked in developing nations for 30 years, believes that the charity model of aid used by nonprofit organizations doesn't work -- despite its good intentions.

The best way to help people, according to Polak, is to treat them as consumers. If you can sell to them, he says, you can help them.

"In the beginning I was a nut case and nobody paid attention," Polak says. "The consensus was 30 years ago that this is what caused poverty, and to be involved in business was outrageous and evil."

Today, that is starting to change, he says. But that doesn't mean that nongovernmental organizations have rolled out the red carpet for Polak's ideas.

"Many NGOs say it's making money on the back of the poor, but I love to make money on the back of the poor," Polak says.

"You can feel really good about yourself giving stuff away ... but if you are going to sell things to people, you need to have respect for them because no one is going to buy something if you have contempt for them."

He says market forces will ensure that the right products get into the marketplace and ultimately lead to empowering people in developing countries to be better able to fend for themselves.