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Alternative medicine => Electro-Health => Topic started by: gravityblock on August 09, 2011, 03:05:31 AM

Title: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: gravityblock on August 09, 2011, 03:05:31 AM
US Patent #US20090110749A1, http://www.billjacques.com/pdf/US20090110749A1.pdf

Quick Summary:

Decomposition of water is a redox reaction. The oxidation reaction occurs at one electrode, and the reduction reaction at the other electrode.  Circulating a saline concentration of at least 0.15%, while maintaining a PH of 7.2 to 7.5 with a temperature range of 30 - 100 degrees Fahrenheit and using < 30volts will produce stable redox molecules and will be sufficient to prevent production of toxic chlorates.

The Nanodrop 3300 fluorospectrometer, can be used to measure the amount of reactive molecules found in every batch.  Thermo Scientific has a free one-week trial period to evaluate the fluorspectrometer (they will also pay all shipping costs), http://www.nanodrop.com/TrialProgram.aspx

The stable ROS concentration, for example, has a variation of less than 5% from batch to batch and from device to device when the same set of parameters are employed by each.  It may even be safe to assume future batches to be free of the unwanted chlorates once the Nanodrop has successfully verified the production of stable redox molecules if the same set of parameters are employed for each batch.  Of course it would be better to use the Nanodrop or other similar device to verify the safety of every batch.  Maybe with further research, an alternative or extremely cheap method of verifying every batch produced is safe to consume will be found.  The method itself looks simple.  The purpose of this thread is for those who can not afford the redox molecules which are currently being manufactured and distributed by a certain company(s) and for educational purposes, while being done in the "Spirit of Open-Source".  The safety of the consumed solution should also be of concern, but I think this is more than likely a scare tactic, especially if the correct procedures, parameters, etc., is followed.

GB
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: qiman on August 09, 2011, 11:21:09 AM
I am posting my responses to GB from Energetic Forum in regards to his "DYI Redox" drink - I'm all for experimentation but safety first:

----------------------

THINK GB, the average person is going to use stainless steel, etc.. and will wind up with traces of toxic chromium, etc... in their mix, etc... go ahead and encourage people to screw themselves up - not very smart.

Why don't you study the whole thing before haphazardly recommending that people poison themselves.

Scare tactic? Anyone with business sense knows that a very small
insignificant percentage of anyone that will try to do it themselves has
no bearing on the majority of the population that simply wants to purchase
it. This has ALWAYS been the case.

Look at the history of the radiant battery charging for example - many people want to do it themselves UNTIL it is actually available to buy so people don't have to waste their time - unless they just want to study it but that is a small minority - most people are fairly pragmatic and see it as a waste of time.

Personally, I find it interesting and want to keep studying it but you are talking about a product that someone is to ingest and a product that your knowledge of is extremely minuscule, while inferring that people could make it themselves while saying it is a scare tactic to discourage someone from doing so.

In my book, I mention that if someone wants to experiment with using electrolyzed water for biology to practice on plants first that don't produce food. You really need to walk before you can run and if anyone gets sick from your ill informed advice, you are 100% responsible for them. Very easy for an anonymous person that refuses to put their real name to anything they say.

I have no problem with people discussing the science first but to suggest something that you know nothing about is completely irresponsible.

----------------------------------

To have a responsible discussion about this with people that are actually qualified to discuss it, I started this thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/health-fitness-nutrition/8819-redox-signaling-molecules.html

I have information that others don't and GB's casual references are immature and irresponsible.

To those that have no intent of following responsible advice and insists on trying to drink what they brew up in their garage, use only platinum electrodes or you will poison yourself by changing the chemistry of the solution when iron and other metals come in contact with the solution.

Passivated layers on steel to make them "stainless" are not really stainless, they are only stain resistant until the passivation layer is broken through and it doesn't take much under these circumstances to do that.

Take the advice in my book - if you experiment with anything along these lines, experiment first on plants that do not produce food that you will eat. No matter what you do, you will not replicate a stabilized solution of 16 molecules unless you are "skilled in the art" and the patent apps and patents only give you a direction but do not show you the complete path. They are enough to understand what the final product is to understand the molecules involved and that is enough to understand the biochemical pathways involved in ROS and RS reactions at the cellular level.

Some people can be naive to believe that a cursory overview of an app or patent for this is enough to circumvent 16 years and millions of dollars in research in order to make this happen - that is fine - we all like to feel we can take shortcuts but this is not some motor experiment, this is something we DRINK and this is not a joke. Electric experiments are one thing but people's body's and health are something not to mess around with.

Sorry GB, wake up and give some disclaimers before planting goofball ideas in people's heads that may not know any better. You can claim you are only commenting that they may be using something as a "scare tactic" to keep people from trying to replicate and will claim you are not trying to encourage people to replicate it but posting info on a fluorspectrometer is all telling. You have a clear history revealing your Modus operandi here so we can just let it rest at that. You posted your link at ou and I will cross link to my own threads here.

This applies to simple electrolyzed water even without sodium chloride. George Wiseman's Browns Gas for Health http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/blog/browns-gas/browns-gas-health-enhancement/how-use-browns-gas-health-enhancement page. Sounds like he gave himself pneumonia by inhaling gas produced with lye as an electrolyte. Sodium chloride is not lye but but it can produce very toxic chlorine compounds that can kill your lungs. Mustard gas is a form of chlorine gas. Just use common sense and safety first everyone.

The ONLY thing I would recommend doing as an experiment for starters is electrolyzed water with no electrolyte and using that as a liquid to water plants (that grow no food) with. Jumping straight to electrolyte based solutions for health purposes is like asking someone that is using a AA battery to light an LED to start playing with a million volt Tesla Coil - they aren't the same thing.

I will answer what I can here: http://www.energeticforum.com/health-fitness-nutrition/8819-redox-signaling-molecules.html but will not encourage people to start brewing up poison in their garage. Countless millions of dollars are not going to be invested in something that just anyone can cook up in their spare time as a hobby.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: SeaMonkey on August 09, 2011, 10:36:32 PM
Qiman,

Your expressed points of view are understandable
as you have a vested interest in the commercial
success of a product which you are promoting on
your Energetic Forum website.

I, however, do not see where Gravityblock is making
any reckless recommendations or encouraging the
pursuit of discovery without adequate precaution.

There is a great deal of curiosity regarding the product
which you are promoting and as a natural consequence
there will be discussion directed towards the goal of
understanding what it actually is as well as the process
which causes it to be made.

Scare tactics and hyperbole are frequently resorted to
by promoters of health products in an effort to discourage
replicating what may indeed be a very simple process.

Hopefully, in the discussion which ensues the truth regarding
any potential hazards will be illuminated as will remedies to
avoid those hazards.

I look forward to additional input on this topic. 
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: SeaMonkey on August 09, 2011, 10:53:39 PM
The patent referenced by Gravityblock in the initial posting
is very interesting and it does convey considerable detail.

In order to attain the desired level of "reactive oxygen species"
by electrolysis within the chosen electrolyte it would seem that
the solution must be kept cold and that the current level must
be quite high.  Ozone, which is one of the electrolysis products,
is normally produced at current levels which are substantial.

The specified electrodes are exotic rare earth metals so there
is also the possibility that some catalysis is occurring.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: gravityblock on August 10, 2011, 12:40:43 AM
I am posting my responses to GB from Energetic Forum in regards to his "DYI Redox" drink - I'm all for experimentation but safety first:

----------------------

THINK GB, the average person is going to use stainless steel, etc.. and will wind up with traces of toxic chromium, etc... in their mix, etc... go ahead and encourage people to screw themselves up - not very smart.

Why don't you study the whole thing before haphazardly recommending that people poison themselves.

Scare tactic? Anyone with business sense knows that a very small
insignificant percentage of anyone that will try to do it themselves has
no bearing on the majority of the population that simply wants to purchase
it. This has ALWAYS been the case.

Look at the history of the radiant battery charging for example - many people want to do it themselves UNTIL it is actually available to buy so people don't have to waste their time - unless they just want to study it but that is a small minority - most people are fairly pragmatic and see it as a waste of time.

Personally, I find it interesting and want to keep studying it but you are talking about a product that someone is to ingest and a product that your knowledge of is extremely minuscule, while inferring that people could make it themselves while saying it is a scare tactic to discourage someone from doing so.

In my book, I mention that if someone wants to experiment with using electrolyzed water for biology to practice on plants first that don't produce food. You really need to walk before you can run and if anyone gets sick from your ill informed advice, you are 100% responsible for them. Very easy for an anonymous person that refuses to put their real name to anything they say.

I have no problem with people discussing the science first but to suggest something that you know nothing about is completely irresponsible.

----------------------------------

To have a responsible discussion about this with people that are actually qualified to discuss it, I started this thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/health-fitness-nutrition/8819-redox-signaling-molecules.html

I have information that others don't and GB's casual references are immature and irresponsible.

To those that have no intent of following responsible advice and insists on trying to drink what they brew up in their garage, use only platinum electrodes or you will poison yourself by changing the chemistry of the solution when iron and other metals come in contact with the solution.

Passivated layers on steel to make them "stainless" are not really stainless, they are only stain resistant until the passivation layer is broken through and it doesn't take much under these circumstances to do that.

Take the advice in my book - if you experiment with anything along these lines, experiment first on plants that do not produce food that you will eat. No matter what you do, you will not replicate a stabilized solution of 16 molecules unless you are "skilled in the art" and the patent apps and patents only give you a direction but do not show you the complete path. They are enough to understand what the final product is to understand the molecules involved and that is enough to understand the biochemical pathways involved in ROS and RS reactions at the cellular level.

Some people can be naive to believe that a cursory overview of an app or patent for this is enough to circumvent 16 years and millions of dollars in research in order to make this happen - that is fine - we all like to feel we can take shortcuts but this is not some motor experiment, this is something we DRINK and this is not a joke. Electric experiments are one thing but people's body's and health are something not to mess around with.

Sorry GB, wake up and give some disclaimers before planting goofball ideas in people's heads that may not know any better. You can claim you are only commenting that they may be using something as a "scare tactic" to keep people from trying to replicate and will claim you are not trying to encourage people to replicate it but posting info on a fluorspectrometer is all telling. You have a clear history revealing your Modus operandi here so we can just let it rest at that. You posted your link at ou and I will cross link to my own threads here.

This applies to simple electrolyzed water even without sodium chloride. George Wiseman's Browns Gas for Health http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/blog/browns-gas/browns-gas-health-enhancement/how-use-browns-gas-health-enhancement page. Sounds like he gave himself pneumonia by inhaling gas produced with lye as an electrolyte. Sodium chloride is not lye but but it can produce very toxic chlorine compounds that can kill your lungs. Mustard gas is a form of chlorine gas. Just use common sense and safety first everyone.

The ONLY thing I would recommend doing as an experiment for starters is electrolyzed water with no electrolyte and using that as a liquid to water plants (that grow no food) with. Jumping straight to electrolyte based solutions for health purposes is like asking someone that is using a AA battery to light an LED to start playing with a million volt Tesla Coil - they aren't the same thing.

I will answer what I can here: http://www.energeticforum.com/health-fitness-nutrition/8819-redox-signaling-molecules.html but will not encourage people to start brewing up poison in their garage. Countless millions of dollars are not going to be invested in something that just anyone can cook up in their spare time as a hobby.

You're automatically assuming that a toxic chlorine stew will be produced by those who decide to do this themselves. I never said to use stainless steel, but according to you, this is what people will use if they do it themselves. This is the purpose of having a discussion on how to DIY, so it can be done properly. I never told anyone to produce a toxic chlorine stew so they can ingest it ( I never told anyone to do this sort of thing, as you're suggesting I did). In fact, there are devices already on the market which utilize electrolysis through patented platinum bonded titanium electrodes inside a water cell along with being able to control the pH. Below is a link to a brochure on such a device, which utilizes the most advanced platinum-titanium electrodes in the world. This system is a little pricey, but there are cheaper alternatives available also. Comparing the price of this system to the price of a one year supply through the MLM scheme is the break-even point. If this product is as good as everyone is saying it is, then wouldn't you want a life-time supply of this (for you and the rest of your family or loved ones)? Compare the amount of money you would spend in 2, 5, 10, or 20 years of buying this product through the MLM at it's current price, then compare it to doing it yourself with the appropriate equipment. I don't want to hear how you can get it for free if you find five other people. People will run away the moment they think you want to make money off of them. Besides, most of them will drop out without any involvement within the first month.

Alkaline Water Ionizers originated in Russia in the late 1960’s. Reports emerged of life changing water that was easy to produce and had amazing taste and effects. The Japanese with their macrobiotic history and knowledge of pH immediately recognized how this water could assist our health. The Jupiter Science Aquarius (see link below) employs computer accurate, selectable magnetic energy to perform electrolysis through patented platinum bonded titanium electrodes inside a water cell. A little modification to this or a similar device is all that is needed. EF MEMBERS HAVE BEEN SOLD OUT!

I never admitted anywhere that I only do "theory". I have done many experiments and replications on the various forums. There is no reason for me to attach my real name to anything I do on these forums, because I'm not selling anything like you are. I want others to know that it may be possible to produce a safe and stable form of redox molecules themselves at a fraction of the cost. The concentrations of the 16 molecules is controlled by the parameters chosen, such as temperature and voltage.

Brochure link, http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGwQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Flnpyh.com%2FJupiter_Aquarius_Flyer.doc&rct=j&q=platinum%20bonded%20electrodes&ei=WI5BTvX7IKOtsQLfz-C0CQ&usg=AFQjCNHgycDIEw6sJOV7hA80xqam2oHrXQ&cad=rja

GB
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: gravityblock on August 10, 2011, 12:50:20 AM
Qiman banned me from EF, LOL.  He said I was insulting people for not believing the same as I do.  I don't see where I insulted anybody.  It was actually the other way around, where qiman was insulting me, since I didn't believe as he did.  He also said I remained anonymous and that is a pretty cowardly thing to do.  The real cowardly thing to do is to ban someone for having opposing views.  Qiman isn't using his real name here, but is anonymous on this forum, as I was on EF.  I guess qiman is cowardly all through out.  Trying to leach millions from the members of EF for his own financial gain is totally dis-respectful and disgusting.

GB 
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: CompuTutor on August 10, 2011, 02:40:35 AM
Banned me too, the iraditant asshole (WeThePeople),
I'm still waiting for him to let me back into EF
to delete my messages/attachments, posts, and account.

I've even sent him a PM asking him to do it himself !

If I cannot reply to that which I have posted already,
I should be granted the right to remove my content !

PERIOD !



I opposed the fact that it is just balanced water,
and that it sucks at that price point, I was polite.

I was accussed of swearing and other things I didn't do !

I can login and read my own posts still,
so I know that statement is true !

Remember, they have a vested interest in this,
and do NOT want us to manufacture it too.

They are playing the "Safety" card,
and I respect that part for all people,
this AIN'T a colloidal silver project.

But banning me for telling truth to power
just isn't enough for Aaron.

He has to come here and defend himself too.

He has an extreme financial interest to do so.

I lost respect for him during the spark plug incident,
but even now he doesn't seem willing to do the right thing.

Those are my attachments/posts/private PM's

But I cannot even wash my hands of that biased enviroment !

he'll read this and assert an untruth,
like I took things out of context,
and use explives.

I didn't, he's wrong, period.

I watched GB oppose you politely, and have now watched you
use your administrative power inappropriately to censor people
that do not agree with pure marketing crap put forth !

Just eviscerate all incidence of my existance of me from your forum,
or allow me the right to remove that which I can no longer support.

I gave you a second chance after the spark plug fiasco,
but you managed to do it again a second time (Predictably ?)...

Admin censorship is not a good-ole boys club tool.

Good luck to both you and peter selling water,
thats just what the people of planet earth need,
charging for friggin water !

Seriously ?

Stephan, I do respect Aaron on other topics,
he has a darn fair handle on a number of things.

But this "WATER" with balanced sustained
positive and negative "SPECIES" require more
clarification than he is willing to reciprocate
prior to sale of a completely unknown product.

He will indicate many people and sports figures
that he says endorse this product so far.

Some pan out on Google, some don't.

There is a fair and strong possibility it is real.

But you get friggin banned if you push for asnwers.

Thats crap...

Worst part is that this might be real stuff,
but market practices drove people away.



Oh, and good reply Gravity Block,
equipment to do this is already on
the open market to buy and use...
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on August 10, 2011, 02:50:05 AM
GB,

I am not surprised you were banned.  I have been a member of EF for a little over 3 years and every time someone expresses a view contrary to Aaron's they get banned.  He claims to be spiritually enlightened but he will ban you very quickly if you oppose his views.  Thank you for showing there is an alternative.

I read the patent and except for the expensive electrodes needed I don't see any reason a competent person with some good engineering skills couldn't make their own redox generator.  The temperature control part is a piece of cake for anyone with a basic understanding of HVAC equipment.  The electronic side is also very simple.  The expensive electrodes and an accurate way to analyze what you produce are the only drawbacks I see to producing your own redox.

So I guess now I am wondering why they are charging so much for a couple of bottles of this stuff when it is so easy to make.  The patent plainly says they have already established the parameters for making the redox with just the right combination of chemicals they want.  They start out with salt water and only run it through this one process for some given amount of time.  It is not like this takes millions of dollars worth of equipment or many steps of the process. 

I will be watching this thread closely to see if there is a way to do this for a reasonable price.  Thanks again for starting this thread.

Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: CompuTutor on August 10, 2011, 03:02:57 AM
Exactly cifta, the same thing happens in pharmaceuticals,
they charge for the development in the price of the product,
instead of eating that and putting out a cheap aspirin pill.

If they charged for the price of the water, the electricity,
the workers salery, and any consumed catalyst materials,
it would be about $3 to $4 a bottle instead.

That would be $6 to $8,
because the minimum sale is TWO bottles !

Toranado may have said it best:
"The rich and wealthy will stay healthy and the poor will die.

This is the one big crime I can see coming from this stuff.

Its already too expensive for some.

Your health should not be controlled by your economic position.

Then what?

How do I get more?

How do Fund my need to stay healthy.

You become a distributor,
just as any drug dealer does to support his habit"

Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: CompuTutor on August 10, 2011, 02:49:01 PM
Wow, that was venting, heheh.

Sorry all...

I find it amazing how much information is out there about something I was not even aware of the existance of.

I'm trying to collect a select group of writings and links for an archive for all to read and better understand
what the processes are and some speculative theories as to why it has such a profound effect on human cells.

It really is fascinating.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on August 10, 2011, 03:48:21 PM


I have also been trying to do some research about this product and how to produce it.  It seems that a very similar liquid can be made by bubbling HHO gas through a glass of distilled water.  Or some even say your favorite drink, but I'm not too sure I would want to use anything but distilled water because you don't know what might be in the drink that might give a bad reaction.  Is it really necessary to make all 16 of the chemicals that are listed in the patent?  The patent just says that these 16 can be made by adjusting the temp and voltage.  It doesn't say that all 16 are needed for a beneficial effect.  Do we have any biochemists looking at this thread?  Maybe they could help us go in the right direction.  Has anyone here had any experience with the HHO gas bubbling through your drinking water?  I have found several sites on the internet where people are claiming it is beneficial.  But you can post anything on the internet so I am not real sure I believe all that I read.

Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: steeltpu on August 10, 2011, 07:49:41 PM
I'm with GB on this one.  Aaron claims there was no bait and switch.  His forum is primarily an energy forum and he sends out a message that he is having a conference call and at the end of it he will give you a battery secret.  But he calls every one stupid for assuming the call was about energy.  When some of the best forum members there are saying this was bait and switch he still does not see it.  He is out there on this one.  He screwed up but does he even know it or is he just covering his butt.  The boy may be smart but has a serious ego and it's going to trip him up eventually if he doesn't get a handle on it.  It sounds like he wants to be rich so bad he will do anything to get there.  He doesn't understand his own teachings.

   All MLM take a product that is super cheap to make and mark it up a huge amount as that is what is required in any MLM for all the downlines to make money.  It's saltwater with a dab of electrolysis.  How expensive can that be?  And while they might have a chance at doing a business I think they are going to kill the deal by having the mandatory monthly shipping thing to even get any product.  That's about as money grabbing of a plan as you can get. 

   If some chemist was smart he would start making this same thing and sell it for a quarter of the Asea price and would still make a mint.  Patent you say?  There's always a way around that. 
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: SeaMonkey on August 11, 2011, 07:23:00 AM
This Web Page (http://www.detoxifynow.com/alkaline_water.html)
has a great deal of information about water,
especially structured or electrically treated
water, and the machines which are available
to make it.

Once we all have a good understanding then
it should be possible to develop the necessary
techniques for making the desired product.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: nvisser on August 12, 2011, 09:40:47 PM
The  saltwater chlorinator I use in my pool does axactly what this patent tells us to do. It also use a platimum coated mesh anode, use 24V dc and the temperature is regulated as the water pump through the chlorinator (electrolizer) all the time.
A simple electrochemical reaction with salt water produces chlorine gas. That same reaction produces sodium hydroxide (NaOH). That is the stuff I have to clean from the grids once a week. It does not sound so healthy to me.
Does that mean I am swimming in magic water or does it not relate?
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: SeaMonkey on August 13, 2011, 01:16:21 AM
Good questions Vissie.

The pool chlorinator uses a fairly strong
solution of saltwater to produce Chlorine
at the Anode of the electrolyzer.  This
then mixes with the Sodium Hydroxide
which is produced at the Cathode to make
Sodium Hypochlorite (commonly known as
bleach) which is a powerful oxidizer and
disinfectant.

With a slight modification the device could
indeed be used to make "structured water"
since the electrodes are of the proper material.

What we need to discover now is the concentration
of Sodium Chloride (or Potassium Chloride) and/or
other salts in the solution to be electrolyzed and
the Voltage/Current density which produces the
desired product.

Too strong a solution will produce the wrong chemicals
(hypochlorites, chlorates and perchlorates) in too high
a concentration.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: gravityblock on August 13, 2011, 04:02:24 AM
Good questions Vissie.

The pool chlorinator uses a fairly strong
solution of saltwater to produce Chlorine
at the Anode of the electrolyzer.  This
then mixes with the Sodium Hydroxide
which is produced at the Cathode to make
Sodium Hypochlorite (commonly known as
bleach) which is a powerful oxidizer and
disinfectant.

With a slight modification the device could
indeed be used to make "structured water"
since the electrodes are of the proper material.

What we need to discover now is the concentration
of Sodium Chloride (or Potassium Chloride) and/or
other salts in the solution to be electrolyzed and
the Voltage/Current density which produces the
desired product.

Too strong a solution will produce the wrong chemicals
(hypochlorites, chlorates and perchlorates) in too high
a concentration.

I agree with SeaMonkey, with slight modifications the pool chlorinator with the proper electrodes could be used to produce "structured water".  Vissie, the pool chlorinator is a good find and is relatively inexpensive.  Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Below is a patent link which covers the MDI-P substance, which is the electrolyzed saline solution with the stabilized redox molecules.  This patent gives a very good idea for the saline concentration to be used, along with a good idea of the voltage, current, and time requirements.  There's also a lot of experimental data which can be found in this patent.

Thanks

GB

References:

Patent link, http://static.patsnap.com/patent/download/pdf/US5674537

Publication on Saltwater Chlorinator, http://www.poolsuppliessuperstore.com/pdfs/6176.pdf
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: broli on August 13, 2011, 04:51:43 AM
Call me ignorant, I've seen this structured water thing at EF but chose not to be part of it as I saw a shit storm coming. I'm glad I avoided it.

However it's definitely something that begged the "why can't people make this themselves" question. Especially funny on a forum where people are mostly doing open source free energy research.

This actually reminds me of the whole home made colloidal silver debacle. I recently discovered that most of the colloidal silver products, also the home made ones are very lacking. Most of them produce ionic silver (which in some cases is more effective than metallic silver) which when ingested turns almost instantly in silverchloride in the stomach. The best way to create REAL metallic nano silver in the range of 15nm-20nm is to use heat, an electrolyte, constant current and eventually a reducing agent. This process is very accurate and well documented and its pure chemistry, no bullshit attached.

The process is described here:

http://www.cgcsforum.com/Articles/MakingCSPart2.html (http://www.cgcsforum.com/Articles/MakingCSPart2.html)

There's even a dedicated forum where much more info is available.

Anyway that's a whole completely different story. Planning on making its own thread. The reason I brought this up is because of the similarities. That is temperature regulation, an electrolyte and perhaps even a constant current generator. It will pay off to have people that are well versed in chemistry, because that's all it is.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: gravityblock on August 13, 2011, 05:01:41 AM
Broli,

Good post.

Thanks,

GB 
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: gravityblock on August 14, 2011, 07:54:20 PM
However it's definitely something that begged the "why can't people make this themselves" question. Especially funny on a forum where people are mostly doing open source free energy research.

In addition to this, the Energetic Forum presented by Energetic Science Ministries (ESM) is a Non Profit organization, and they're using this non-profit organization to promote/sell their books and products through their network affiliate programs and the ASEA MLM scheme, which is against the Law for a non-profit organization.

ASEA is presented by: ESM & Energetic Forum on this site, http://esm.teamasea.com/

GB
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: CompuTutor on August 16, 2011, 05:24:43 AM
In addition to this, the Energetic Forum presented by Energetic Science Ministries (ESM) is a Non Profit organization,
and they're using this non-profit organization to promote/sell their books and products
through their network affiliate programs and the ASEA MLM scheme,
which is against the Law for a non-profit organization.

ASEA is presented by:
ESM & Energetic Forum on this site, http://esm.teamasea.com/

GB

Damned straight Tonto, illegal as it gets...

But churches/bakesales have done it for years.

Someone with a lot of cash to burn
could sue Aaron inside out if they cared to.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on August 27, 2011, 02:20:55 AM
It seems this thread is about dead.  I have found a product that appears to make a water that is very similar to the Asea water.  It is a little pricey but it would probably pay for itself in a short while if you used it instead of buying the over priced Asea water.  Here is the link:

http://www.water-prox.com/mineral_redox_right.htm


Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: nvisser on August 27, 2011, 03:51:25 PM
Hi Carroll
I cannot find a price anywhere on that website
Vissie

Ok I found it
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: gravityblock on August 27, 2011, 11:39:05 PM
It seems this thread is about dead.  I have found a product that appears to make a water that is very similar to the Asea water.  It is a little pricey but it would probably pay for itself in a short while if you used it instead of buying the over priced Asea water.  Here is the link:

http://www.water-prox.com/mineral_redox_right.htm


Carroll

Carroll, Thanks for bringing the above link to our attention. It looks like there are products already on the market to make Redox (Reduced Oxidation) Water.  From what I've read so far, the Aquatech ProX Technology does appear to produce Redox Water which is very similar to the over priced Asea water.  I agree the device itself is a little pricey, but it should quickly pay for itself as compared to buying the Asea Water.  In addition to this, we now have most of the information needed to replicate a similar device to produce the Redox Water in a safe and effective manner for those who are financially unable to purchase the device which makes the Redox Water.  IMO, this thread is a "Success", which allows one to make the Redox Water safely at home (DIY) and at a much lower cost.  Thanks to everyone who provided helpful information for this project.

Aaron, you should be ashamed of yourself for selling out the EF Members and for registering your non-profit organization with Asea.

Patent for the Aquatech ProX Technology:

http://www.google.ru/patents/download/5435894_Process_and_apparatus_for_improv.pdf?id=LkEnAAAAEBAJ&output=pdf&sig=ACfU3U1EPkeJabf-BNxwB5PWVyG9E45g4g&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0

GB
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: broli on August 28, 2011, 12:34:21 AM
"Suggested retail price: 800$"

That's quite high for a couple of electrodes and electronic components that wouldn't cost 5$ in total.

So all of this comes down to high frequency AC voltage? Doesn't seem that magical anymore.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: b_rads on August 30, 2011, 03:55:18 PM
Hey guys,
Just found your thread, and yes, I was one of the participants on the most exciting and revolutionary findings affecting the free energy movement.  Boy did I feel duped.  After doing a little research on the subject I came across this site.  Read the information there and see if the information presented doesn't sound familiar.
http://drinkh2o2.com/
I purchased 17.5% Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide off ebay and several of my coworkers and I have just started using it.  I paid less than $18.00 per quart delivered to my house.  This has to be diluted to 3% and then only small amount added to distilled water for daily consumption.  A quart should last a long time.  So far, none in our group has gotten sick or noticed any negative side effects.  I will let you know how this works out for us after we have tried it for a while.
Brad S
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on September 07, 2011, 12:34:50 AM
Hi everyone, I have read the above patents and I think it is possible to replicate from all the clues given, of course allways playing safe.
I guess, the most critical and expensive component in the set up are the electrodes, so surfing on ebay I found this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120724679996?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

For me looks good, nice and not very expensive. What do you think guys?
I dont have much free time but i'll try to invest some time for research and develop this great discover.
I'm far from being a rich man and i want to be healthy too (and my family). It's worth a try.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on September 20, 2011, 10:47:58 PM
ASEA has 123 mg of sodium per 4 ounces.  from http://www.echifitness.com/Resources/011711-asea-use-notes.pdf
IMO, this is a good starting point in order to get the initial NaCl concentration on the distilled water.
Na = 22.9898g/mol, Cl = 35.453g/mol; this means that NaCl is composed for 39.35% Na and 60.65% Cl.
And 4 water oz = 118.29 cm3 (or grams)
My math would be: ((0.123/0.3935)/118.29)*100= 0.26% <--- The patent says this value is at least 0.15%
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong on the math.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on September 26, 2011, 11:37:56 PM
Ok, finally i have my couple of titanium platinized electrodes.
I also have one 1Lt Pyrex glass vessel that i used for making colloidal silver but it will work good after removing all the possible invisible silver debris accumulated on the botton and walls.
This weekend I made a lid out of UHM plastic to fit the electodes and a small dc motor to circulate and stir the water.
I will use 99% pure NaCl from a local lab. And for keeping a very low temp. I will put all the setup inside a cooler with regular water ice.
My real concerning is about chlorates formation, and Sodium chlorate is a non-selective herbicide. It is considered phytotoxic to all green plant parts. It can also kill through root absorption., So I will try it first on several small herbs from the garden just to be sure.
Stay tuned I'll post some updates later.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on September 28, 2011, 06:25:06 PM
Hi charly2,

    Thanks for posting the update.  It sounds like you might have a pretty good handle on the chemistry involved.  I don't know enough about the chemistry to try this on my own so I am interested to see what you come up with.  If you need any help on the electronic side I may be able to help you there.
     
    I tried a couple of bottles of the Asea water.  I found a seller that would sell 2 bottles instead of the case of 4.  I still had to pay $90 by the time they added on the shipping charges.  After a few days I did notice I was sleeping better and had more energy during the day.  I had one day where I was really on the go pretty hard all day and I still was able to finish what I had to do although I was pretty tired when I got done.  I am 65 years old so I don't have the energy I used to have.   By the time I finished the 2 bottles I really didn't see any other significant changes.  I realize 2 bottles is not really a fair test but it is just too expensive to keep taking when I don't really have any major issues to try and resolve.  If you can come up with a reasonable alternative I would be willing to give it a trial for a few months or so to see what effect it would have in the long run.  So I am looking forward to your results.

Thanks again for the update, Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on September 29, 2011, 09:57:53 PM
Hi Carroll, thanks for sharing your experience dinking it, maybe I'll order also 2 bottles later, just to have a comparison point like ppm's, ph, taste, etc.
BTW it would be really appreciated if someone could check with a TDS meter the PPM on the asea water and share it, that info is not mentioned on the documents and it is in some way linked to the concentration.

And it's really good to know you have good knowledge of electronic because that is one of my weakest point :P

I'll start using a laptop charger 16V DC 4.5 amps and adjusting the distance between electrodes to get the desire current at determined concentration in this case I'll keep it hypertonic at 0.2%. I still don't fully understand the reason to keep the solution above the isotonic point (approx 0.14%),so I'll do it as it's stated in the pattent.
If time allow me, this next weekend I'll make an attempt to do it and test it.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on October 07, 2011, 05:30:12 PM
After some attempts using different parameters I guess I found the right for my setup, I made my first 1 litter batch. The taste is like many people describe it.
I tested first on some germinated beans on cotton (no soil), for two days and they didn't die, in fact look like they love this water.
After that I ask my brother who has an old and very tired boxer dog (13 or 14 Y.O.) to allow me to test it on his dog, he took the risk not very convinced at first. I gave 2oz at night and my brother gave him 2oz more in the morning. He (my brother) reported me the next day his dog was playing like a kid with a soft ball and started to bark again like years before. Now it's more alert and awake almost all day!!!

My setup parameters are listed below, and the following information is intended for educational purposes, it is not intended for commercial or business use, and no warranty is offered on the accuracy of this information.

These are the parameters I used:
1 litter of distilled water (0 to 1 PPM)
2.0 grams of NaCl 99.0% pure (will produce a 0.2% concentration)
2 platinized titanium electrodes (3”x2” grid type)
7/8” gap between electrodes
1.0 to 1.1 Amp at 16V DC (just enough to produce visible bubbles)
2.5 Hrs of electrolysis and continuous stirring from the bottom
Approx 32 to 33 °F (beaker immersed in water and ice inside a cooler until reach the lowest temp before start the process).
Initial PPM: 1490, final PPM 1415 (i don't fully understand why)

An important missing parameter is the relation current/area, this due it is hard to determine the real effective area of the electrodes.

It is important that if someone try to replicate it never use regular salt table, the iodine will combine with hydrogen to form Hydroiodic acid that is corrosive and harmful if swallowed, inhaled or in contact with skin, very destructive of mucous membranes and may affect functioning of thyroid.

The integrity of the platinum coating it is critical and the electrolysis must be done only in the coated area. Don't use the electrodes if there are scratches or some type of damage on the coating that shows the base metal.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: nvisser on October 07, 2011, 06:05:54 PM
Charlie
It sounds very promising!!
I also want my old Chow to run around again. He lives on pain pills.
When are you going to test it on your wife? 
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on October 07, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
Charlie
It sounds very promising!!
I also want my old Chow to run around again. He lives on pain pills.
When are you going to test it on your wife? 
 ;D ;D ;D

On my wife?...mmmmm... not sure...
But my mother in law wants to try it for his chronic leg pain.  ::)
Guess who is the lucky guy. ;D
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on October 07, 2011, 08:00:10 PM
Great job Charly.  I guess I better get busy and find some platenized electrodes and some pure NaCl.  Thanks for your efforts and being willing to share. 

Carrool
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: nvisser on October 07, 2011, 08:47:52 PM
Of coarse!! Mother in law!!
Do eeeeeeeeet!!!
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on October 08, 2011, 03:40:22 PM
Now I understand what happened on the PPM readings, I took the readings at different temperature, enough to have wrong data.

I made another batch and at 33°F before start the electrolysis the solution was 1140PPM after 2.5HRS and same temperature was 1330PPM.
This is an increase of 190PPM. This make sense to me; new ions are created and conductivity increase.

Perhaps this could be used at home to test the solution stability after days, weeks or months. If ions re-join after determined time the conductivity will reduce so PPMs will reduce too.
Definitely this is not finished yet.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on October 14, 2011, 04:07:35 PM
Day after day I noticed the taste is changing (I'm not dinking it yet), the first day it taste like a little strong pool water and fresh, but after days the taste is not the same, is more like bitter but not too much.
The TDS meter shows also a decrease in PPM. So, looks like it is reversing or degrading to something else. Not sure really.

Something similar happens when we produce ionic silver, after time molecules/ions join to each others until precipitate to the bottom, and the TDS shows a lower reading after hours and days latter.

I've thinking about it, what if after the ions creation time, I start to reduce the current (and volts by consequence) in a relative long process until reach almost cero amps?.
This only to avoid an abrupt current interruption, and let the molecules enough time to stabilize slowly.

Carroll (and everyone), perhaps you can suggest me a circuit to control the current from let's say 1 to 0 amps. At first a PWM came to my mind but it's output is allways the same current but pulsed at determined length to get an averaged current. My idea is to decrease the current in a smooth way.

Is there any other different way to do it?

All ideas (and crazy ideas) are welcome.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on October 14, 2011, 06:53:19 PM
Hi Charly,

Does the conductivity of the solution stay the same throughout the process?  If adjusting the voltage to control the current is not a problem I am sure we can come up with an automated way to do that.  I am in the middle of adding a bathroom to our basement so let me think about it some and get back to you.  If anyone else has any ideas feel free to jump and help out.

On another thought do you think what you have is a solution of the redox molecules we want and they just aren't stable.  I tried making something similar by bubbling HHO gas through distilled water.  It also changed after a few days so I just dumped it and made fresh every couple of days.  Do you think this is an option for what you are making?  Or do you think being unstable might be detrimental to our health in some way?

Carroll

PS Just a quick idea.  If you connect a large capacitor across the output of the PWM then it will average the pulses into a lower voltage and current.  Since the load stays the same as the pulses get shorter the voltage on the cap will gradually get lower.  We just need a way to automatically change the pulses.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on October 15, 2011, 07:06:41 PM
Hi Carroll,
The conductivity is not the same all the time, when the process starts the conductivity starts to increase so current too (i.e. from 1.0 to 1.2 amp) until ion production gradually decrease and conductivity stays constant. But i guess this small increase in conductivity should not be a problem, we could consider it constant for practical purposes.

About the redox molecules I think they are what they should be, not sure about concentration or the % of each molecule or if there are all the 16 molecules claimed in the patent.
But my brother's pal (his dog) is still alive and alert during almost all day and night, so that is my only proof that is working (taking the same water from the same bottle after 2 weeks).

I have not tried the distilled water bubbled with HHO, but there should be good for our health, but use two or three bubblers before the distilled water to avoid contamination from your cell.
Water is oxidized at the anode and the reaction is: 2H2O  -->  O2 + 4H+ + 4e-
Water is reduced at the cathode and the reaction is: 4H2O + 4e-  -->  2H2 + 4OH-
the final products of water electrolysis are a small part of the asea water.

Not sure if will be detrimental to our health, but there is a possibility.
I'm a mechanical engineer and not an expert on chemical reactions, so involvement from people with better undersanding on chemistry would be really helpful.

And Carroll you are right a big capacitor will fix the PWM waves to make them almost flat, and much better if automatically change the pulses.

Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: broli on October 15, 2011, 10:36:22 PM
Sounds like you need a constant current source.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Module-Constant-Current-Voltage-Adjustable-/390316505427?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae0ad3953

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Constant-Current-Voltage-Regulators-Module-LED-/270834255816?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0efac7c8
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on October 17, 2011, 02:48:25 AM
Charly,

I forgot to mention if you decide to use a capacitor and a PWM you need to put a diode between the output of the PWM and the capacitor.  Otherwise when the  PWM switches to the off side the capacitor may try to discharge back into the PWM.  Just connect a 1 to 3 amp diode with the anode end to the PWM and the cathode end to the cap.  This should charge the cap with the pulses from the PWM and not let the PWM discharge the cap between pulses.  Just ask if you need any more info about how to do this.

Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on October 18, 2011, 04:44:39 PM
Hi Broli, those modules are an affordable and good option due its flexibility to play with parameters, thanks.
Thanks Carroll I'll have your advices in mind; but I'm still thinking what's going on with this stuff, perhaps that is the "normal behavior" of the saline water. :-\
Until now I developed "my own procedure" just from the documentation of 7 or 8 patents and some facts claimed on the asea site and doing some extrapolation on the parameters (concentration, mass, volts, amps, and time).
I will go back one step, I'll buy a couple of fresh original bottles and make a comparison (PPM, Ph, taste etc), I'll post some news later when done.
Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: jrspath on October 19, 2011, 09:09:25 PM
For some interesting Information go to

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on November 08, 2011, 04:28:03 PM
Thanks for the link jrspath.
 
I got 4 bottles from ebay for $120 shipping included, here two readings made:
Asea at 77°F (room temp): 2180 ppm, PH 7.5
 
My solution at same temp at 0.26%: 2185 ppm, PH 8.7
I used other parameters to make my own water this time similar in taste (asea has a really soft taste, more like saline).

I think the real problem is the ph.
 
Here is how I prepared my last batch:
1Lt tridestilled water: 0PPM, PH7.0
2.6gr NaCl
Mixed at room temp: 2160 PPM, PH 4.3 (PH went down)
Gap between electrodes: 3/8
Electrolized for 8 minutes at 16V dc, 3 Amps
Final solution: 2185 PPM, PH 8.7
 
I started the process and I check the solution every 2 minutes and at the first 2 minutes the PH was 8.1 (too high).
 
I don't remember the patent number where I did read the stability of the solution was affected for the PH and at 74 - 7.5 the solution could be stable for long time.
 
I opened one asea bottle 1 week ago and the same day I made my last batch. The same day the taste was almost identical, Now 1 week later the asea solution is the same taste, same ph and ppm, but my batch is changing in taste slowly as days run but keep same ppm and ph as the first day.
 
Any idea how to solve this little PH problem?, How to control the PH while electrolysis is running?.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: gravityblock on December 01, 2011, 01:52:13 AM
Thanks for the link jrspath.
 
I got 4 bottles from ebay for $120 shipping included, here two readings made:
Asea at 77°F (room temp): 2180 ppm, PH 7.5
 
My solution at same temp at 0.26%: 2185 ppm, PH 8.7
I used other parameters to make my own water this time similar in taste (asea has a really soft taste, more like saline).

I think the real problem is the ph.
 
Here is how I prepared my last batch:
1Lt tridestilled water: 0PPM, PH7.0
2.6gr NaCl
Mixed at room temp: 2160 PPM, PH 4.3 (PH went down)
Gap between electrodes: 3/8
Electrolized for 8 minutes at 16V dc, 3 Amps
Final solution: 2185 PPM, PH 8.7
 
I started the process and I check the solution every 2 minutes and at the first 2 minutes the PH was 8.1 (too high).
 
I don't remember the patent number where I did read the stability of the solution was affected for the PH and at 74 - 7.5 the solution could be stable for long time.
 
I opened one asea bottle 1 week ago and the same day I made my last batch. The same day the taste was almost identical, Now 1 week later the asea solution is the same taste, same ph and ppm, but my batch is changing in taste slowly as days run but keep same ppm and ph as the first day.
 
Any idea how to solve this little PH problem?, How to control the PH while electrolysis is running?.

Adding a part of an effervescent multi-vitamin tablet to the water is an easy and inexpensive way to lower the pH value, according to Answers.com (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_lower_pH_level_in_drinking_water).  One tablet is sufficient for two gallons of water.  Instead of tablets, there is a powder form available also. Is there anything in this effervescent multi-vitamin tablet which could make the water unsafe for drinking when combined with the electrolysis process?  I don't know.

REDOXON INMUNE FUERTE TABS (EFFERVESCENT MULTIVITAMIN) (http://www.amazon.com/REDOXON-INMUNE-FUERTE-EFFERVESCENT-MULTIVITAMIN/dp/B0033A4MBC)

Effervescence-wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effervescence)

Keep us updated and thanks for your time and efforts.  How is the dog?  Hope he is still doing fine.

Thanks,

Gravock
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on December 01, 2011, 09:13:20 PM
Sounds really easy and cheap (as it should be), I don't know how is going to react with the ionic solution and don't have any equipment to test it, but I will try it one of this days just to see what happen.
Days ago I had a similar idea but adding some drops of HCl (PH=1), H and Cl are the same elements contained in the base solution, but never tried, benefical compounds will be destroyed by the chloridric acid?. It is in my to do list.
 
The dog is still in good shape after some weeks, not any important change since the first week.
I tried the ASEA water for 5 days and rest for 1 week, then I got brave enough to drink from my own batch. I got surprised.
Asea does work, slow but works, I felt some let's say minor improvements on my energy level after the 4th day I started drinking it.
But when I tried my solution the same day I felt the same improvement but really much more energized and focused, I tried for 4 days 2 oz in the morning only, no side effects till now only my battery fully loaded. Now I understand better my brother's dog behavior. :o
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on December 01, 2011, 10:03:40 PM
Hi Charly,
The solution you made that you are drinking,  are you making a new batch each day or are you drinking from the same batch for several days?  You mentioned earlier the smell seems to change after a few days.  Is the taste changing also if you are using the same batch?  If your batch seems to be working with no ill effects would it be reasonable to just make a new batch every few days and toss the old one as it starts to change.  It seems like it would be easy enough to make and reasonably cheap too compared to the Asea water.  I also felt a small improvement in my energy level and slept better too when I was taking the Asea water.  It is just too expensive for long term use.
Also are you ready yet to describe the process you are using or do you want to test and refine some more before you share that info.  Thanks for sharing what you have learned.


Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: Cloxxki on December 02, 2011, 01:02:15 AM
I relaly want to try Redox water, butt can't afford it right now. Especially not with the risk of it being another great infomercial fantasy.

My health guru thinks it's goose armpit grease fableware.
I'd love to try it for a month or so, as an athlete I am quite in touch with how my body performs.


I've read good stories on drinking peroxide too, full glasses straight up even (accidental occurence, scary...)


What I don't understand is the multiple stages of dilution with the peroxide, does that serve a purpose? Why not mix a couple grams on a liter and be done with it?


Is peroxide safe in these doses? I feel my body (and mind) have great leftover capacity not being used. Something is going to unleash it, but what... I know great things are out there, but as an athlete I use nothing from WADA's doping list. A shame, human groth hormane, apart from being addictive, seems to be great for overall health. Cheating on live.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on December 03, 2011, 12:46:12 AM
When I started to drink it, the solution was 1 week old, not really fresh.
But I have batches 2, 3 and 4 weeks old and the taste is almost identical. The change in taste starts 1 or 2 days after was made until get stabilized (in taste) after 4 or 5 days, I don't know, perhaps that is the way it should be...
The solution in fact is odorless and stays like that all the time, only the taste changes but not much, I gave my wife 2 samples to taste, one and four weeks old and she said they are the same.
Carroll, in case one would like to drink only fresh solution, it is just necessary to make a smaller setup i.e. 1/4 or 1/2 litter just chanching the beaker or glass size and reduce the process time more or less in the same proportion.
I doubt my batches are in the optimum point, but for now it is good enough for me. I'll post some pics later to show how simple is the setup.
 
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on December 03, 2011, 01:10:37 AM
Thanks for the info Charly.  I am looking forward to trying it as I did see some improvement with the Asea water.  Did you decide you did not need to work on keeping the current at an exact value?  Or did you find a constant current power supply to meet your needs?  I will probably make a liter or so at a time as my wife needs to be taking it too.  Thanks again for all your efforts and for being willing to share what you have learned.


Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: b_rads on December 03, 2011, 05:58:28 AM
I relaly want to try Redox water, butt can't afford it right now. Especially not with the risk of it being another great infomercial fantasy.

My health guru thinks it's goose armpit grease fableware.
I'd love to try it for a month or so, as an athlete I am quite in touch with how my body performs.


I've read good stories on drinking peroxide too, full glasses straight up even (accidental occurence, scary...)


What I don't understand is the multiple stages of dilution with the peroxide, does that serve a purpose? Why not mix a couple grams on a liter and be done with it?


Is peroxide safe in these doses? I feel my body (and mind) have great leftover capacity not being used. Something is going to unleash it, but what... I know great things are out there, but as an athlete I use nothing from WADA's doping list. A shame, human groth hormane, apart from being addictive, seems to be great for overall health. Cheating on live.
Two of my coworkers and I have been using H2O2 for a little over 3 months now.  One user sprays it on after morning shower and reports increased energy. Another sprays on age spots and after a week or so the spots dry up and peels off and healthy clear skin is underneath.  I use it as a nose spray and have not had an asthma attack since using. Even though we have all tried drinking, we each decided to stick with the above methods.  I would say we each have expierienced positive results.  Hope this helps.
 
Brad S
 
I purchased food grade hydrogen peroxide from ebay for all three of us.  Diluted, kept in refridgerator, and it lasts a long time.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: TEKTRON on December 03, 2011, 09:45:55 AM
After some attempts using different parameters I guess I found the right for my setup, I made my first 1 litter batch. The taste is like many people describe it.
I tested first on some germinated beans on cotton (no soil), for two days and they didn't die, in fact look like they love this water.
After that I ask my brother who has an old and very tired boxer dog (13 or 14 Y.O.) to allow me to test it on his dog, he took the risk not very convinced at first. I gave 2oz at night and my brother gave him 2oz more in the morning. He (my brother) reported me the next day his dog was playing like a kid with a soft ball and started to bark again like years before. Now it's more alert and awake almost all day!!!

My setup parameters are listed below, and the following information is intended for educational purposes, it is not intended for commercial or business use, and no warranty is offered on the accuracy of this information.

These are the parameters I used:
1 litter of distilled water (0 to 1 PPM)
2.0 grams of NaCl 99.0% pure (will produce a 0.2% concentration)
2 platinized titanium electrodes (3”x2” grid type)
7/8” gap between electrodes
1.0 to 1.1 Amp at 16V DC (just enough to produce visible bubbles)
2.5 Hrs of electrolysis and continuous stirring from the bottom
Approx 32 to 33 °F (beaker immersed in water and ice inside a cooler until reach the lowest temp before start the process).
Initial PPM: 1490, final PPM 1415 (i don't fully understand why)

An important missing parameter is the relation current/area, this due it is hard to determine the real effective area of the electrodes.

It is important that if someone try to replicate it never use regular salt table, the iodine will combine with hydrogen to form Hydroiodic acid that is corrosive and harmful if swallowed, inhaled or in contact with skin, very destructive of mucous membranes and may affect functioning of thyroid.

The integrity of the platinum coating it is critical and the electrolysis must be done only in the coated area. Don't use the electrodes if there are scratches or some type of damage on the coating that shows the base metal.

Hello, I know something of the subject. My father just turned 73. He has been drinking KANGEN water for years and he says he feels better today then he did at 30 years old. Kangen was developed in japan. It uses regular tap water. It has a membrane in it to keep the separated acid ions at one electrode and the alkaline ions at the other electrode from re combining. The acid water is collected for cleaning or disinfecting purposes or sewered. The alkline water is consumed at PH range of 8.0 to 12.0. The higher the PH the more the reaction with your body. 12.0 will give you a violent colon cleansing so stick around 8 to 9. Kangen uses the thickest platinum coating on the market and it is marketed MLM. That is why the MSRP is $4000.00. The reason the for the very thick platinum is because titanium is toxic. If you use the cheep ebay electrodes they will put titanium in solution. My advice to the chemist here is to make an indicator solution to test for the presents of titanium .

The titanium determination (as TiO2) is based on the use of disodium-1,2-dihydroxybenzene-3,5-disulfonate (Tiron) as a spectrophotometric reagent. The reagent forms a lemon-yellow titanium complex that has a high molar absorptivity (Yoe and Armstrong, 1947). The absorbance of this titanium complex is nearly independent of pH over the range 4.3 to 9.6. Ferric iron also reacts with Tiron to produce a purple complex, but this interference is eliminated by reducing the ferric iron with sodium dithionate solution buffered at pH 4.7. The absorbance of the yellow titanium complex at 430 nm is measured spectrophotometrically.

In other words... add some indicator to water sample. If it turns shades of yellow, it contains titanium.
Caution: DO NOT DRINK THE SAMPLE WITH THE INDICATOR IN IT!!!!!
 
The water being sold over at Arron's STORE uses sodium chloride in the reaction to create a shelf stable product. You don't need it. Make it on demand and drink it. You do not need a special membrane. Craft paper will work. I have the pdf somewhere on how to construct one.
I was thinking in going to AMPMEX.com and buying a gram of .999 that's 99.999% pure platinum for $80.00. Then take it to a jeweler and have him roll it in to a ribbon for electrode material. Use rectified and filtered wall AC with a 5 watt or so resistor to electrodes. ;D John
PS watch me get banned now. :P
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: TEKTRON on December 03, 2011, 10:31:34 AM
I forgot to mention, Kangen has a demo they do...They take a glass of room temperature tap water and of Kangen water. Place a tea bag in each glass. The  Kangen water makes tea instantly and the tap water never does. Ever hear anybody say "I don't like drinking water because it leaves me full but thirsty"? They say that this Kangen water penetrates every cell in your body just as readily as the tea.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: CompuTutor on December 05, 2011, 04:17:05 PM
The water being sold over at Arron's STORE uses sodium chloride
in the reaction to create a shelf stable product.
You don't need it. Make it on demand and drink it.
PS watch me get banned now. :P

Heheh, Aaron may be a lil' Hitler on his website,
banning anybody that tells truth to power, etc.,
but Stefan is a much better person that that.



The Kangen is overpriced,
even ex-employees agree:

http://www.ionizers.org/kangen.html

More options:

http://www.ionizers.org/bigger-ionizers.html

But these are only ionized water units,
not Redox Signalling processors per se'



I a few experiments of mine were I wanted
separately ported gases using electrolysis,
I found reverse osmosis membranes to work well.

The cartridges are inexpensive when you consider
how many square inches of material are in them.

Hope this helps
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on December 05, 2011, 06:28:28 PM
Interesting Tektron, I never before have drink alkaline water so I can't make a comparisson, but maybe the extra energy I feel is due because of the alkaline condition of the water I'm drinking, it is 8.7 or 8.8, ; PH goes high as soon electrolysis starts, gas hydrogen goes away and OH ions stay in the solution.
I'll read more about titamium determination, thanks for the advise. But I like more you idea to roll a ribon of pure platinum and forget liftime abut titanium issues.
BTW I could not find the web page you posted, it is a good price for 1 gram. I found on ebay 0.5mm diameter platinum wire but doing the math it cost 2x the same quantity, it is easier to roll it or press it because it is pre formed but more expensive.

Carroll, I do not use any volt or amp regulator just the water solution resistance, but the way I'm doing it is just mater of find the electrolysis time until get a light taste of chlorine, little stronger like pool water.
I usually put 1 gal of distilled water in the fridge like the rest of the food and take 1 cold litter for the process when I need it, the process takes few minutes so the water solution finishes cold.
I estimated the area of 1 electrode was about 7 sq in, so following the rule of any dry or wet cell I jut care not to go beyond 0.5amp/sq in to avoid any damage on the electrodes.
Hope this helps.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: TEKTRON on December 06, 2011, 07:24:01 AM
Interesting Tektron, I never before have drink alkaline water so I can't make a comparisson, but maybe the extra energy I feel is due because of the alkaline condition of the water I'm drinking, it is 8.7 or 8.8, ; PH goes high as soon electrolysis starts, gas hydrogen goes away and OH ions stay in the solution.
I'll read more about titamium determination, thanks for the advise. But I like more you idea to roll a ribon of pure platinum and forget liftime abut titanium issues.
BTW I could not find the web page you posted, it is a good price for 1 gram. I found on ebay 0.5mm diameter platinum wire but doing the math it cost 2x the same quantity, it is easier to roll it or press it because it is pre formed but more expensive.

Carroll, I do not use any volt or amp regulator just the water solution resistance, but the way I'm doing it is just mater of find the electrolysis time until get a light taste of chlorine, little stronger like pool water.
I usually put 1 gal of distilled water in the fridge like the rest of the food and take 1 cold litter for the process when I need it, the process takes few minutes so the water solution finishes cold.
I estimated the area of 1 electrode was about 7 sq in, so following the rule of any dry or wet cell I jut care not to go beyond 0.5amp/sq in to avoid any damage on the electrodes.
Hope this helps.

sorry, I threw an extra m in there
http://www.apmex.com/Category/171/Platinum_Bars__Rounds_1_Gram___50_Oz.aspx  ;D  (http://www.apmex.com/Category/171/Platinum_Bars__Rounds_1_Gram___50_Oz.aspx)



BTW, I found the PDF I had " Living Water"
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on December 06, 2011, 10:22:53 PM
Hi Charly,
Have you been able to verify the info about titanium being toxic?  Everything I have read says that titanium is NOT toxic and is used for implants primarily because it is inert.  One article I read says that titanium is in almost everything we eat and is in all living things naturally.  Because it is inert it just passes right on through the body.  I even found a redox molecule making machine that uses titanium electrodes.  Here is the link:
http://www.water-prox.com/Product1.htm


So do you think we can safely use the electrodes from Ebay?
Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on December 07, 2011, 12:13:04 AM
Hi Charly,
Have you been able to verify the info about titanium being toxic?  Everything I have read says that titanium is NOT toxic and is used for implants primarily because it is inert.  One article I read says that titanium is in almost everything we eat and is in all living things naturally.  Because it is inert it just passes right on through the body.  I even found a redox molecule making machine that uses titanium electrodes.  Here is the link:
http://www.water-prox.com/Product1.htm (http://www.water-prox.com/Product1.htm)


So do you think we can safely use the electrodes from Ebay?
Carroll
Yes, I also have read something about it, looks like it is not a poison metal and the human body can tolerate titanium in large doses. In fact it is not a heavy metal and even most toothpaste have TiO2 in it.
Time ago there was a product called MesoTitanium it was colloidal titanium and there was people drinking it (same as colloidal silver) for its antiviral properties and more specific against candida. Now it is discontinued, I don't know why.
The electrodes I got from ebay I made a careful inspection the first day i received using a small usb microscope and the coating was covering all the surfaces including some small cavities.
I had to replace one of them because during a test I used more than 10 amps for few minutes and the titanium showed up in some areas like small brown spots.
Just take care in the current during the process and the electrodes can last long. I guess 1 to 3 amps would be good.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: TEKTRON on December 07, 2011, 12:37:13 AM
Yea and today most toothpaste has fluoride in it. That don't mean it is not toxic :o

http://www.cfspages.com/melisa.html (http://www.cfspages.com/melisa.html) ???


http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=11851.php (http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=11851.php) ???


http://consumercide.com/health/dent-toxtitanium.html (http://consumercide.com/health/dent-toxtitanium.html) ???
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: broli on May 07, 2012, 11:45:39 PM
Any follow up on this?  Did you continue to drink the water? Lately I got interested in building the setup from the patent mentioned a couple pages ago using the high frequency and was curious how you were doing. I'm waiting on an ORP tester as well to document my urine ORP before and after drinking the water.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on May 08, 2012, 04:49:26 PM
Yes, I have dinking the water for several months, the effects are very similar to the original product (IMO). Almost all members of my family are dinking it as far as today, including my mother who suffered of severe condition of rheumatoid arthritis for the last 35 years and now she can walk again without pain. She is the most amazing recovery case I have ever seen.
I had to make some adjustments to the parameters of the process to find the best point, now I make 5 litters per batch at 0.2% concentration and less electrolyzing time. I have not found yet how to lower the final PH, I always get 7.6 to 7.8
Check ORP/PH urine before and after drinking the water sounds great, never step on my mind. But something I noticed is the fact that drinking the original product or my processed water makes the urine a little foamy, same in both. What is it?, some effect of the body working better? I dont know.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: broli on May 08, 2012, 06:17:46 PM
Could you elaborate more on the specifications of your current setup please.

What's the current and voltage you provide?
How long does it take to finish a batch? (I also think this would be easier to measure with an ORP meter so you know how much the process changed it)
What do you exactly mean with 0.2% concentration? I doubt this is the NaCl concentration as it seems to be way to high.
How much of it do you drink a day?

And imo your pH is not that bad. A healthy human body has a pH range of 7.35 -7.45 according to the Internet.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on May 09, 2012, 03:54:08 PM
At this moment I dont have my notes with me, I will post today later all the parameters.
But a little ahead of the information, I can say that the concentration is 0.2%/100 by weigth, so for 1000mL (or 1000gr) of water  I add 2gr of NaCl.
The process is made at 12dcv in 2 steps and 1 liter is finished in 20 minutes. I use to drink 2 oz twice a day.
I made a mistake on the PH, it is 8.8, quite high imo.
I will post the details later.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on May 14, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
Here you have the details:
The mesh electrodes I have are 2x3 inches, 1 electrode has 10.8 sq inch: 2 sides of 3.5 and 3.8 in the "holes". I had to make a 3D model to get those numbers.
It is not easy to calculate the current density on the electrodes, I considered in a very conservative way that the area of the electrode was 3.5sq inch, and I would preffer to keep the current at no more fo 1/2 amp x 1sq inch. It is easy to make them crap if you dont control the current.
They are spaced 3/8" and almost fully immersed in the solution.
In 1 liter of cold distilled water add 1 gram of NaCl, the solution is stirred during the electrolysis process.
Conect the electrodes to the source at 12vdc, that will produce 0.9 amps, run the process for 12 minutes.
After the 12 minutes stop and add one more gram of NaCl to the solution, run the process at same 12vdc, but now the current will be in 1.6 amps, run for 8 minutes.
And that is all.
How I got that recipe?, trial and error.
Hope this helps as a starting point. Please post your results.
 
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: broli on May 14, 2012, 07:02:06 PM
Thanks for the instruction. However most of the things I'm planning will be quite different I guess. I'm going to follow the high frequency flip flop method of this patent:

http://goo.gl/SFCXi (http://goo.gl/SFCXi)

I think the flip flopping has the same function as your stirring, that is to have a continuously agitated solution. Also I'm going to be using mineral water as they do in the patent, they seem to imply that the elusive generated H⁻ ion which would be otherwise short lived would attach itself to these minerals to extend its life span. That's why they also suggest to throw in a rock in the solution. Anyway my biggest advantage is that I also have ordered this ORP meter:

http://goo.gl/pd0ff (http://goo.gl/pd0ff)

So I can have a very good quantitative means of measuring how effective any parameter change will be.

Finally I'm probably going to use stainless steel for the electrodes.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on May 15, 2012, 11:00:27 PM
Hi broli,
Please DO NOT use stainless steel for your electrodes!  Stainless steel has chrome in it.  If you use it as an electrode hexavalent chromium will be released into the water.  Hexavalent chromium is a poison!  Try this simple test.  Put your electrodes into a weak saline solution.  Run some current through them for a while.  The water will start to turn a pale yellow.  This is the chromium in the water.  Please do some research on this and consider using platinum electrodes like charly2 is using.  I worked in a plating shop for several years where they did a lot of chrome plating.  Hexavalent chromium can seriously damage your health.  Please do not ignore this suggestion.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Carroll

Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: broli on May 16, 2012, 12:10:15 PM
Hi broli,
Please DO NOT use stainless steel for your electrodes!  Stainless steel has chrome in it.  If you use it as an electrode hexavalent chromium will be released into the water.  Hexavalent chromium is a poison!  Try this simple test.  Put your electrodes into a weak saline solution.  Run some current through them for a while.  The water will start to turn a pale yellow.  This is the chromium in the water.  Please do some research on this and consider using platinum electrodes like charly2 is using.  I worked in a plating shop for several years where they did a lot of chrome plating.  Hexavalent chromium can seriously damage your health.  Please do not ignore this suggestion.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Carroll

Sometimes ignorance can indeed kill, chemistry is not my thing thanks. However platinum is way out of the budget for me to be honest, but I still have titanium and graphite. Surely the latter should be pretty non reactive and the only bad by product would be chlorine gas. Opinion on this?
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: citfta on May 16, 2012, 12:47:09 PM
Hi broli,
I think charly2 got his electrodes from ebay for a fairly reasonable price.  If I remember right they were titanium coated with platinum.  I am not a chemist either, I was an electrician working on the plating shop equipment.  Someone posted earlier that titanium was also a poison.  But when I did some research on that I found that titanium is used in almost all hip and knee artificial joints because it is considered to be totally inert in the human body.  I know we used a lot of titanium bolts and nuts in the plating shop because it was so resistant to corrosion.  I don't really know if that makes it safe to use as an electrode in something you plan to drink.  As far as the graphite I do know the original Asea water had a slight swimming pool taste when I tried a couple of bottles.  So I guess there was a little chlorine in it.  I am sure charly2 can answer all these questions much better than I can.  I just wanted to make sure you knew that stainless was not a safe material to use.
Carroll
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: broli on May 16, 2012, 12:52:07 PM
Here's another intresting thing I came across during some research into this:

http://www.elkadot.com/en/chemistry/Electrolysis%20of%20Molten%20Sodium%20Chloride.htm

Referring it to as "invisible electrolysis".
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: charly2 on May 16, 2012, 06:30:43 PM
Thanks for the instruction. However most of the things I'm planning will be quite different I guess. I'm going to follow the high frequency flip flop method of this patent:

http://goo.gl/SFCXi (http://goo.gl/SFCXi)

I think the flip flopping has the same function as your stirring, that is to have a continuously agitated solution. Also I'm going to be using mineral water as they do in the patent, they seem to imply that the elusive generated H⁻ ion which would be otherwise short lived would attach itself to these minerals to extend its life span. That's why they also suggest to throw in a rock in the solution. Anyway my biggest advantage is that I also have ordered this ORP meter:

http://goo.gl/pd0ff (http://goo.gl/pd0ff)

So I can have a very good quantitative means of measuring how effective any parameter change will be.

Finally I'm probably going to use stainless steel for the electrodes.

I have being tempted to start building it, I am ok with my  electrolyzer so perhaps in a near future i will do it, I only need the  electronic part.
 
I have to agree with Carroll abut the Hexavalent  Chromium, some people say there is not scientific proof about its production  during electrolysis, I would play safe in this case. Please see this video and  take your conclusions:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=55_j21tCN_k&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL0544F7A82D781657 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55_j21tCN_k&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL0544F7A82D781657) 
 
There is a nice thread in the EF posted by Jetijs you must have seen  it (Living vs dead water), he uses stainless steel and a filter membrane between  both plates, at the end of the process he gets alkaline water in one end and  acid water in the other. The alkaline water he gets is clear, and the acid water  is yellow this one is supposed to contain some amounts of chromium and is not  used, but it is just a thin permeable membrane the one that prevents a mix (and the electric charge), perhaps it is safe,  I don't  know. He has reported excellent results. 
 
Any IMHO if I build one of  those alkaline machine or any other similar machine one day I would use platinum coated plates. Second option for me but I have never tested is graphite.
The price of the electodes I am using is $35 each in ebay.

Do you know what kind of rock  is recommended?, I could not find information abou it. I guess it must add some minerals to the solution and help the  chemical process to produce different  species.
Title: Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on September 04, 2012, 02:38:21 AM
Hi GB, Charly, Stefan and ALL

We have a live blood cell microscope and would love to try and help or see if we can add to any replication data Especially
 charly2's positive results statements on this forum.
  To gravity block
on: August 09, 2011, 03:05:31 AM - you wrote The Nanodrop 3300 fluorospectrometer, can be used to measure the amount of reactive molecules found in every batch.  Thermo Scientific has a free one-week trial period to evaluate the fluorspectrometer (they will also pay all shipping costs), http://www.nanodrop.com/TrialProgram.aspx   the nanodrop is a very professionally polished corporate product nanodrop lite first impressions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyeUgQEEEq0&feature=related but not everybody can afford it
  can we do it with any spectrophotometer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrophotometry
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxC6F7bK8CU&playnext=1&list=PL6FC2219F71FEE88E&feature=results_main
  or even how about a open source spectrophotometer? http://www.openspectrometer.com/
  or maybe it is just more convenient for us a analytical laboratory and pay them to do it,till we get our heads around all this stuff and what are the things we need to test for anyway? any thoughts please?
  To charly2, thank you for your wonderful work, if you ever want us to write it up, let us know we already have a volunteer who will get blood PH and any thing more you need
just need the technical details my friend
thanks for all your open source spirit and hard work.

Ash