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Author Topic: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules  (Read 61849 times)

Offline gravityblock

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DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« on: August 09, 2011, 03:05:31 AM »
US Patent #US20090110749A1, http://www.billjacques.com/pdf/US20090110749A1.pdf

Quick Summary:

Decomposition of water is a redox reaction. The oxidation reaction occurs at one electrode, and the reduction reaction at the other electrode.  Circulating a saline concentration of at least 0.15%, while maintaining a PH of 7.2 to 7.5 with a temperature range of 30 - 100 degrees Fahrenheit and using < 30volts will produce stable redox molecules and will be sufficient to prevent production of toxic chlorates.

The Nanodrop 3300 fluorospectrometer, can be used to measure the amount of reactive molecules found in every batch.  Thermo Scientific has a free one-week trial period to evaluate the fluorspectrometer (they will also pay all shipping costs), http://www.nanodrop.com/TrialProgram.aspx

The stable ROS concentration, for example, has a variation of less than 5% from batch to batch and from device to device when the same set of parameters are employed by each.  It may even be safe to assume future batches to be free of the unwanted chlorates once the Nanodrop has successfully verified the production of stable redox molecules if the same set of parameters are employed for each batch.  Of course it would be better to use the Nanodrop or other similar device to verify the safety of every batch.  Maybe with further research, an alternative or extremely cheap method of verifying every batch produced is safe to consume will be found.  The method itself looks simple.  The purpose of this thread is for those who can not afford the redox molecules which are currently being manufactured and distributed by a certain company(s) and for educational purposes, while being done in the "Spirit of Open-Source".  The safety of the consumed solution should also be of concern, but I think this is more than likely a scare tactic, especially if the correct procedures, parameters, etc., is followed.

GB

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« on: August 09, 2011, 03:05:31 AM »

Offline qiman

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2011, 11:21:09 AM »
I am posting my responses to GB from Energetic Forum in regards to his "DYI Redox" drink - I'm all for experimentation but safety first:

----------------------

THINK GB, the average person is going to use stainless steel, etc.. and will wind up with traces of toxic chromium, etc... in their mix, etc... go ahead and encourage people to screw themselves up - not very smart.

Why don't you study the whole thing before haphazardly recommending that people poison themselves.

Scare tactic? Anyone with business sense knows that a very small
insignificant percentage of anyone that will try to do it themselves has
no bearing on the majority of the population that simply wants to purchase
it. This has ALWAYS been the case.

Look at the history of the radiant battery charging for example - many people want to do it themselves UNTIL it is actually available to buy so people don't have to waste their time - unless they just want to study it but that is a small minority - most people are fairly pragmatic and see it as a waste of time.

Personally, I find it interesting and want to keep studying it but you are talking about a product that someone is to ingest and a product that your knowledge of is extremely minuscule, while inferring that people could make it themselves while saying it is a scare tactic to discourage someone from doing so.

In my book, I mention that if someone wants to experiment with using electrolyzed water for biology to practice on plants first that don't produce food. You really need to walk before you can run and if anyone gets sick from your ill informed advice, you are 100% responsible for them. Very easy for an anonymous person that refuses to put their real name to anything they say.

I have no problem with people discussing the science first but to suggest something that you know nothing about is completely irresponsible.

----------------------------------

To have a responsible discussion about this with people that are actually qualified to discuss it, I started this thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/health-fitness-nutrition/8819-redox-signaling-molecules.html

I have information that others don't and GB's casual references are immature and irresponsible.

To those that have no intent of following responsible advice and insists on trying to drink what they brew up in their garage, use only platinum electrodes or you will poison yourself by changing the chemistry of the solution when iron and other metals come in contact with the solution.

Passivated layers on steel to make them "stainless" are not really stainless, they are only stain resistant until the passivation layer is broken through and it doesn't take much under these circumstances to do that.

Take the advice in my book - if you experiment with anything along these lines, experiment first on plants that do not produce food that you will eat. No matter what you do, you will not replicate a stabilized solution of 16 molecules unless you are "skilled in the art" and the patent apps and patents only give you a direction but do not show you the complete path. They are enough to understand what the final product is to understand the molecules involved and that is enough to understand the biochemical pathways involved in ROS and RS reactions at the cellular level.

Some people can be naive to believe that a cursory overview of an app or patent for this is enough to circumvent 16 years and millions of dollars in research in order to make this happen - that is fine - we all like to feel we can take shortcuts but this is not some motor experiment, this is something we DRINK and this is not a joke. Electric experiments are one thing but people's body's and health are something not to mess around with.

Sorry GB, wake up and give some disclaimers before planting goofball ideas in people's heads that may not know any better. You can claim you are only commenting that they may be using something as a "scare tactic" to keep people from trying to replicate and will claim you are not trying to encourage people to replicate it but posting info on a fluorspectrometer is all telling. You have a clear history revealing your Modus operandi here so we can just let it rest at that. You posted your link at ou and I will cross link to my own threads here.

This applies to simple electrolyzed water even without sodium chloride. George Wiseman's Browns Gas for Health http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/blog/browns-gas/browns-gas-health-enhancement/how-use-browns-gas-health-enhancement page. Sounds like he gave himself pneumonia by inhaling gas produced with lye as an electrolyte. Sodium chloride is not lye but but it can produce very toxic chlorine compounds that can kill your lungs. Mustard gas is a form of chlorine gas. Just use common sense and safety first everyone.

The ONLY thing I would recommend doing as an experiment for starters is electrolyzed water with no electrolyte and using that as a liquid to water plants (that grow no food) with. Jumping straight to electrolyte based solutions for health purposes is like asking someone that is using a AA battery to light an LED to start playing with a million volt Tesla Coil - they aren't the same thing.

I will answer what I can here: http://www.energeticforum.com/health-fitness-nutrition/8819-redox-signaling-molecules.html but will not encourage people to start brewing up poison in their garage. Countless millions of dollars are not going to be invested in something that just anyone can cook up in their spare time as a hobby.

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2011, 10:36:32 PM »
Qiman,

Your expressed points of view are understandable
as you have a vested interest in the commercial
success of a product which you are promoting on
your Energetic Forum website.

I, however, do not see where Gravityblock is making
any reckless recommendations or encouraging the
pursuit of discovery without adequate precaution.

There is a great deal of curiosity regarding the product
which you are promoting and as a natural consequence
there will be discussion directed towards the goal of
understanding what it actually is as well as the process
which causes it to be made.

Scare tactics and hyperbole are frequently resorted to
by promoters of health products in an effort to discourage
replicating what may indeed be a very simple process.

Hopefully, in the discussion which ensues the truth regarding
any potential hazards will be illuminated as will remedies to
avoid those hazards.

I look forward to additional input on this topic. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2011, 10:36:32 PM »
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Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2011, 10:53:39 PM »
The patent referenced by Gravityblock in the initial posting
is very interesting and it does convey considerable detail.

In order to attain the desired level of "reactive oxygen species"
by electrolysis within the chosen electrolyte it would seem that
the solution must be kept cold and that the current level must
be quite high.  Ozone, which is one of the electrolysis products,
is normally produced at current levels which are substantial.

The specified electrodes are exotic rare earth metals so there
is also the possibility that some catalysis is occurring.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 12:40:43 AM »
I am posting my responses to GB from Energetic Forum in regards to his "DYI Redox" drink - I'm all for experimentation but safety first:

----------------------

THINK GB, the average person is going to use stainless steel, etc.. and will wind up with traces of toxic chromium, etc... in their mix, etc... go ahead and encourage people to screw themselves up - not very smart.

Why don't you study the whole thing before haphazardly recommending that people poison themselves.

Scare tactic? Anyone with business sense knows that a very small
insignificant percentage of anyone that will try to do it themselves has
no bearing on the majority of the population that simply wants to purchase
it. This has ALWAYS been the case.

Look at the history of the radiant battery charging for example - many people want to do it themselves UNTIL it is actually available to buy so people don't have to waste their time - unless they just want to study it but that is a small minority - most people are fairly pragmatic and see it as a waste of time.

Personally, I find it interesting and want to keep studying it but you are talking about a product that someone is to ingest and a product that your knowledge of is extremely minuscule, while inferring that people could make it themselves while saying it is a scare tactic to discourage someone from doing so.

In my book, I mention that if someone wants to experiment with using electrolyzed water for biology to practice on plants first that don't produce food. You really need to walk before you can run and if anyone gets sick from your ill informed advice, you are 100% responsible for them. Very easy for an anonymous person that refuses to put their real name to anything they say.

I have no problem with people discussing the science first but to suggest something that you know nothing about is completely irresponsible.

----------------------------------

To have a responsible discussion about this with people that are actually qualified to discuss it, I started this thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/health-fitness-nutrition/8819-redox-signaling-molecules.html

I have information that others don't and GB's casual references are immature and irresponsible.

To those that have no intent of following responsible advice and insists on trying to drink what they brew up in their garage, use only platinum electrodes or you will poison yourself by changing the chemistry of the solution when iron and other metals come in contact with the solution.

Passivated layers on steel to make them "stainless" are not really stainless, they are only stain resistant until the passivation layer is broken through and it doesn't take much under these circumstances to do that.

Take the advice in my book - if you experiment with anything along these lines, experiment first on plants that do not produce food that you will eat. No matter what you do, you will not replicate a stabilized solution of 16 molecules unless you are "skilled in the art" and the patent apps and patents only give you a direction but do not show you the complete path. They are enough to understand what the final product is to understand the molecules involved and that is enough to understand the biochemical pathways involved in ROS and RS reactions at the cellular level.

Some people can be naive to believe that a cursory overview of an app or patent for this is enough to circumvent 16 years and millions of dollars in research in order to make this happen - that is fine - we all like to feel we can take shortcuts but this is not some motor experiment, this is something we DRINK and this is not a joke. Electric experiments are one thing but people's body's and health are something not to mess around with.

Sorry GB, wake up and give some disclaimers before planting goofball ideas in people's heads that may not know any better. You can claim you are only commenting that they may be using something as a "scare tactic" to keep people from trying to replicate and will claim you are not trying to encourage people to replicate it but posting info on a fluorspectrometer is all telling. You have a clear history revealing your Modus operandi here so we can just let it rest at that. You posted your link at ou and I will cross link to my own threads here.

This applies to simple electrolyzed water even without sodium chloride. George Wiseman's Browns Gas for Health http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/blog/browns-gas/browns-gas-health-enhancement/how-use-browns-gas-health-enhancement page. Sounds like he gave himself pneumonia by inhaling gas produced with lye as an electrolyte. Sodium chloride is not lye but but it can produce very toxic chlorine compounds that can kill your lungs. Mustard gas is a form of chlorine gas. Just use common sense and safety first everyone.

The ONLY thing I would recommend doing as an experiment for starters is electrolyzed water with no electrolyte and using that as a liquid to water plants (that grow no food) with. Jumping straight to electrolyte based solutions for health purposes is like asking someone that is using a AA battery to light an LED to start playing with a million volt Tesla Coil - they aren't the same thing.

I will answer what I can here: http://www.energeticforum.com/health-fitness-nutrition/8819-redox-signaling-molecules.html but will not encourage people to start brewing up poison in their garage. Countless millions of dollars are not going to be invested in something that just anyone can cook up in their spare time as a hobby.

You're automatically assuming that a toxic chlorine stew will be produced by those who decide to do this themselves. I never said to use stainless steel, but according to you, this is what people will use if they do it themselves. This is the purpose of having a discussion on how to DIY, so it can be done properly. I never told anyone to produce a toxic chlorine stew so they can ingest it ( I never told anyone to do this sort of thing, as you're suggesting I did). In fact, there are devices already on the market which utilize electrolysis through patented platinum bonded titanium electrodes inside a water cell along with being able to control the pH. Below is a link to a brochure on such a device, which utilizes the most advanced platinum-titanium electrodes in the world. This system is a little pricey, but there are cheaper alternatives available also. Comparing the price of this system to the price of a one year supply through the MLM scheme is the break-even point. If this product is as good as everyone is saying it is, then wouldn't you want a life-time supply of this (for you and the rest of your family or loved ones)? Compare the amount of money you would spend in 2, 5, 10, or 20 years of buying this product through the MLM at it's current price, then compare it to doing it yourself with the appropriate equipment. I don't want to hear how you can get it for free if you find five other people. People will run away the moment they think you want to make money off of them. Besides, most of them will drop out without any involvement within the first month.

Alkaline Water Ionizers originated in Russia in the late 1960’s. Reports emerged of life changing water that was easy to produce and had amazing taste and effects. The Japanese with their macrobiotic history and knowledge of pH immediately recognized how this water could assist our health. The Jupiter Science Aquarius (see link below) employs computer accurate, selectable magnetic energy to perform electrolysis through patented platinum bonded titanium electrodes inside a water cell. A little modification to this or a similar device is all that is needed. EF MEMBERS HAVE BEEN SOLD OUT!

I never admitted anywhere that I only do "theory". I have done many experiments and replications on the various forums. There is no reason for me to attach my real name to anything I do on these forums, because I'm not selling anything like you are. I want others to know that it may be possible to produce a safe and stable form of redox molecules themselves at a fraction of the cost. The concentrations of the 16 molecules is controlled by the parameters chosen, such as temperature and voltage.

Brochure link, http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGwQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Flnpyh.com%2FJupiter_Aquarius_Flyer.doc&rct=j&q=platinum%20bonded%20electrodes&ei=WI5BTvX7IKOtsQLfz-C0CQ&usg=AFQjCNHgycDIEw6sJOV7hA80xqam2oHrXQ&cad=rja

GB
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 01:01:29 AM by gravityblock »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 12:40:43 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 12:50:20 AM »
Qiman banned me from EF, LOL.  He said I was insulting people for not believing the same as I do.  I don't see where I insulted anybody.  It was actually the other way around, where qiman was insulting me, since I didn't believe as he did.  He also said I remained anonymous and that is a pretty cowardly thing to do.  The real cowardly thing to do is to ban someone for having opposing views.  Qiman isn't using his real name here, but is anonymous on this forum, as I was on EF.  I guess qiman is cowardly all through out.  Trying to leach millions from the members of EF for his own financial gain is totally dis-respectful and disgusting.

GB 

Offline CompuTutor

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 02:40:35 AM »
Banned me too, the iraditant asshole (WeThePeople),
I'm still waiting for him to let me back into EF
to delete my messages/attachments, posts, and account.

I've even sent him a PM asking him to do it himself !

If I cannot reply to that which I have posted already,
I should be granted the right to remove my content !

PERIOD !



I opposed the fact that it is just balanced water,
and that it sucks at that price point, I was polite.

I was accussed of swearing and other things I didn't do !

I can login and read my own posts still,
so I know that statement is true !

Remember, they have a vested interest in this,
and do NOT want us to manufacture it too.

They are playing the "Safety" card,
and I respect that part for all people,
this AIN'T a colloidal silver project.

But banning me for telling truth to power
just isn't enough for Aaron.

He has to come here and defend himself too.

He has an extreme financial interest to do so.

I lost respect for him during the spark plug incident,
but even now he doesn't seem willing to do the right thing.

Those are my attachments/posts/private PM's

But I cannot even wash my hands of that biased enviroment !

he'll read this and assert an untruth,
like I took things out of context,
and use explives.

I didn't, he's wrong, period.

I watched GB oppose you politely, and have now watched you
use your administrative power inappropriately to censor people
that do not agree with pure marketing crap put forth !

Just eviscerate all incidence of my existance of me from your forum,
or allow me the right to remove that which I can no longer support.

I gave you a second chance after the spark plug fiasco,
but you managed to do it again a second time (Predictably ?)...

Admin censorship is not a good-ole boys club tool.

Good luck to both you and peter selling water,
thats just what the people of planet earth need,
charging for friggin water !

Seriously ?

Stephan, I do respect Aaron on other topics,
he has a darn fair handle on a number of things.

But this "WATER" with balanced sustained
positive and negative "SPECIES" require more
clarification than he is willing to reciprocate
prior to sale of a completely unknown product.

He will indicate many people and sports figures
that he says endorse this product so far.

Some pan out on Google, some don't.

There is a fair and strong possibility it is real.

But you get friggin banned if you push for asnwers.

Thats crap...

Worst part is that this might be real stuff,
but market practices drove people away.



Oh, and good reply Gravity Block,
equipment to do this is already on
the open market to buy and use...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 02:40:35 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2011, 02:50:05 AM »
GB,

I am not surprised you were banned.  I have been a member of EF for a little over 3 years and every time someone expresses a view contrary to Aaron's they get banned.  He claims to be spiritually enlightened but he will ban you very quickly if you oppose his views.  Thank you for showing there is an alternative.

I read the patent and except for the expensive electrodes needed I don't see any reason a competent person with some good engineering skills couldn't make their own redox generator.  The temperature control part is a piece of cake for anyone with a basic understanding of HVAC equipment.  The electronic side is also very simple.  The expensive electrodes and an accurate way to analyze what you produce are the only drawbacks I see to producing your own redox.

So I guess now I am wondering why they are charging so much for a couple of bottles of this stuff when it is so easy to make.  The patent plainly says they have already established the parameters for making the redox with just the right combination of chemicals they want.  They start out with salt water and only run it through this one process for some given amount of time.  It is not like this takes millions of dollars worth of equipment or many steps of the process. 

I will be watching this thread closely to see if there is a way to do this for a reasonable price.  Thanks again for starting this thread.

Carroll

Offline CompuTutor

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 03:02:57 AM »
Exactly cifta, the same thing happens in pharmaceuticals,
they charge for the development in the price of the product,
instead of eating that and putting out a cheap aspirin pill.

If they charged for the price of the water, the electricity,
the workers salery, and any consumed catalyst materials,
it would be about $3 to $4 a bottle instead.

That would be $6 to $8,
because the minimum sale is TWO bottles !

Toranado may have said it best:
"The rich and wealthy will stay healthy and the poor will die.

This is the one big crime I can see coming from this stuff.

Its already too expensive for some.

Your health should not be controlled by your economic position.

Then what?

How do I get more?

How do Fund my need to stay healthy.

You become a distributor,
just as any drug dealer does to support his habit"


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 03:02:57 AM »
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Offline CompuTutor

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2011, 02:49:01 PM »
Wow, that was venting, heheh.

Sorry all...

I find it amazing how much information is out there about something I was not even aware of the existance of.

I'm trying to collect a select group of writings and links for an archive for all to read and better understand
what the processes are and some speculative theories as to why it has such a profound effect on human cells.

It really is fascinating.

Offline citfta

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2011, 03:48:21 PM »


I have also been trying to do some research about this product and how to produce it.  It seems that a very similar liquid can be made by bubbling HHO gas through a glass of distilled water.  Or some even say your favorite drink, but I'm not too sure I would want to use anything but distilled water because you don't know what might be in the drink that might give a bad reaction.  Is it really necessary to make all 16 of the chemicals that are listed in the patent?  The patent just says that these 16 can be made by adjusting the temp and voltage.  It doesn't say that all 16 are needed for a beneficial effect.  Do we have any biochemists looking at this thread?  Maybe they could help us go in the right direction.  Has anyone here had any experience with the HHO gas bubbling through your drinking water?  I have found several sites on the internet where people are claiming it is beneficial.  But you can post anything on the internet so I am not real sure I believe all that I read.

Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2011, 03:48:21 PM »
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Offline steeltpu

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2011, 07:49:41 PM »
I'm with GB on this one.  Aaron claims there was no bait and switch.  His forum is primarily an energy forum and he sends out a message that he is having a conference call and at the end of it he will give you a battery secret.  But he calls every one stupid for assuming the call was about energy.  When some of the best forum members there are saying this was bait and switch he still does not see it.  He is out there on this one.  He screwed up but does he even know it or is he just covering his butt.  The boy may be smart but has a serious ego and it's going to trip him up eventually if he doesn't get a handle on it.  It sounds like he wants to be rich so bad he will do anything to get there.  He doesn't understand his own teachings.

   All MLM take a product that is super cheap to make and mark it up a huge amount as that is what is required in any MLM for all the downlines to make money.  It's saltwater with a dab of electrolysis.  How expensive can that be?  And while they might have a chance at doing a business I think they are going to kill the deal by having the mandatory monthly shipping thing to even get any product.  That's about as money grabbing of a plan as you can get. 

   If some chemist was smart he would start making this same thing and sell it for a quarter of the Asea price and would still make a mint.  Patent you say?  There's always a way around that. 

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 07:23:00 AM »
This Web Page
has a great deal of information about water,
especially structured or electrically treated
water, and the machines which are available
to make it.

Once we all have a good understanding then
it should be possible to develop the necessary
techniques for making the desired product.

Offline nvisser

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 09:40:47 PM »
The  saltwater chlorinator I use in my pool does axactly what this patent tells us to do. It also use a platimum coated mesh anode, use 24V dc and the temperature is regulated as the water pump through the chlorinator (electrolizer) all the time.
A simple electrochemical reaction with salt water produces chlorine gas. That same reaction produces sodium hydroxide (NaOH). That is the stuff I have to clean from the grids once a week. It does not sound so healthy to me.
Does that mean I am swimming in magic water or does it not relate?

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: DIY - Stable Redox Molecules
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2011, 01:16:21 AM »
Good questions Vissie.

The pool chlorinator uses a fairly strong
solution of saltwater to produce Chlorine
at the Anode of the electrolyzer.  This
then mixes with the Sodium Hydroxide
which is produced at the Cathode to make
Sodium Hypochlorite (commonly known as
bleach) which is a powerful oxidizer and
disinfectant.

With a slight modification the device could
indeed be used to make "structured water"
since the electrodes are of the proper material.

What we need to discover now is the concentration
of Sodium Chloride (or Potassium Chloride) and/or
other salts in the solution to be electrolyzed and
the Voltage/Current density which produces the
desired product.

Too strong a solution will produce the wrong chemicals
(hypochlorites, chlorates and perchlorates) in too high
a concentration.

 

OneLink