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Author Topic: Was Bessler for real?  (Read 122885 times)

Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2011, 04:13:33 PM »
It has been said something like : The main mechanism was so simple that a carpenter's apprentice could build it after studying the inside of the wheel . It has also been stated something like : all this fuss over a simple tool that scholars of the day have seen but not in it's complete form . Taking these notes together it is apparent to me that they are related and describe a simple mechanism but not necessarily a simple construction .

P.S. I actually built something similar to the above drawing ... the problem is the weight of the water columns , it keeps the cylinders/bladders full at the bottom , you are better off trying to pump the fluid up the descending side of the wheel than you are expecting it to go straight up . If you are going to build a pump/wheel try putting your reserve fluid at the axle and pump it sideways to the overbalance whereby you will still have to pump up the fluid from the bottom . You see , I am not an empty husk as some would have you think . Most times , in our designs we create an abundance of problems for ourselves in addition to the PM problem .

  Hi Christo,
 It will work just fine. I have gone to school for Propulsion Engineering which is not accepted by the experts.
I believe my schooling and work experience are well suited for this. And because of this and my studies in mathematics, I am quite certain it is what everyone seeks.
 What allows me to be so confident is the time I have spent reviewing this design. Unlike other people, I allowed math to be my friend in understanding the nuances of how this concept works. Without math, I would be like everyone else.
 And what I love about it from an engineering stand point is the potential it has. Of course, Bessler did say he had it rotating at 60 rpm, not as fast as Alan's 66 rpm over balanced wheel ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhskB-0SjKI ), but it did power itself.
 It is something that will demonstrate that all of Bessler's claims are valid. What does amaze me is the resistence I have met in here and at besslerwheel.com by people who claim to support Bessler.
 By the way, if you notice, Mt 66 has an empty bladder on botton and the shaft connecting the top and bottom bladders appears to be a tube. and if anyone notices Mt 67, it seems to use the same mechanics.
 
                                                                                                                                     Jim
                       

Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2011, 04:42:20 PM »
Jim

 What I was referring to, was in private mail with Pese and it was about fluid and tubes. I never claimed what you have drawn was my idea either, as you are so quick to accuse. Flexible tubes was a suggestion from Pese. The basic concept but not the exact same design as in every little detail, as you have been pushing for a couple of years now. Since you keep bringing me up, I  posted to let you know that I am very familiar with the basics of your wheel.  The problems you have is reaction of weight placement counter acting, and fluid retention to keep from flow back. One of my very first ideas I had was fluid movement as well but it was hard tubes and pistons.

I am not here to fight with you or anybody, so lighten up. Here is my original from Aug. 2007.  Another thing is I am no longer a direct part of Arrache either but am ready to work with, if the need is there.

PS When are you ever going to finish it so you can learn and move on? Talking don't build wheels. It's been 2 years on the same idea.

  Alan,
Did I mention mercury ? I didn't.
 
                                      Jim
                                                                                               

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2011, 02:17:42 AM »
Jim

 No you didn't mention mercury, I did, and for a reason you missed as usual. Mercury is a dense fluid/metal. You would be able to use a lot less amount/volume and your squeezing of your pumping would have less flow back problems due to its density and less amount/volume of fluids being moved.  In a simple way to describe, you will use a lot less and have the same weight as well.  If for some reason you are right, which I doubt but there is no proof until a wheel is built. It would allow a faster moving wheel.

 Also! quit sending me personal messages.

Alan

Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2011, 05:22:35 PM »
Jim

 No you didn't mention mercury, I did, and for a reason you missed as usual. Mercury is a dense fluid/metal. You would be able to use a lot less amount/volume and your squeezing of your pumping would have less flow back problems due to its density and less amount/volume of fluids being moved.  In a simple way to describe, you will use a lot less and have the same weight as well.  If for some reason you are right, which I doubt but there is no proof until a wheel is built. It would allow a faster moving wheel.

 Also! quit sending me personal messages.

Alan

  Alan,
 I do not consider you as a credible builder. For me, this requires someone to build openly and explain what they are trying to accomplish before hand.
 It would not take a build to understand why mercury is a poor idea. I have already explained this. I believe this is the reason I am building and you are not.
 And as to what you posted (the design), it is your own invention which only you and Pese can patent. With what I am working on, it does stay on topic. It is about demonstrating what Bessler did.
 By the way, I will throw the dog a bone to show I am not without conscience. The cost of mercury would have prevented Bessler from having used it. In this reply on yahoo answers, they say it is pretty cheap. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061217080620AA0ZmoY, Only $36 per 100 grams. If Bessler used 3 or 4 kilos of weight, we'd be talking $360 times 3 or 4. And this is what you and Pese would use. So I do have to ask, are you being serious ?
 Myself as a builder, I do have to consider costs.
 
 
                                                                              Jim
             

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2011, 06:47:13 PM »

  Alan,
 I do not consider you as a credible builder. For me, this requires someone to build openly and explain what they are trying to accomplish before hand.





 
                                                                              Jim
           

Jim

So you are the judge for credible builders as yourself an example.  :o

So a credible builder  has to give away all they know. Most would consider that person to be a fool, and Bessler was no fool.

I am so glad it is only your opinion.

As for Pese and I patenting? I wouldn't waste my money. I will only patent my running wheel or the team if a team? We will patent it as a team.

 I haven't heard from Gustav Pese for a while. But I received a message that he was sick and in the hospital, not in good shape. I pray for his recovery.

Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2011, 09:56:32 PM »
Jim

So you are the judge for credible builders as yourself an example.  :o

So a credible builder  has to give away all they know. Most would consider that person to be a fool, and Bessler was no fool.

I am so glad it is only your opinion.

As for Pese and I patenting? I wouldn't waste my money. I will only patent my running wheel or the team if a team? We will patent it as a team.

 I haven't heard from Gustav Pese for a while. But I received a message that he was sick and in the hospital, not in good shape. I pray for his recovery.

  You're not to bright Alan. You are always telling other people to prove to you. It's a 2 way street. And with Bessler, what is the need to keep secrets ?
 And considering Bessler was bitter until he died, and to keep his wheel a secret ? It seems he lost much by not making known what he had discovered. he also was not recognized for his understanding of engineering concepts. In some things, he was ahead of his time. But if he would have made his work known, he probably would have inspired many people with his engineering. But this did not happen, did it ?
 And that is why I am working openly. I do not wish to make his same mistake.
And I also happen to think a lot of people might find it interesting what it takes to make a wheel such as his work. It seems you and your friends have no such desire or merely wish attention for how you percieve yourselves. Either way, I think you and your friends are the fools. Look at how few people post in besslerwheel any more. It seems experts like you do more damage than skeptics ever have.
 
                                                                        Jim
 
edited to add; maybe you're just not up to a decent challenge. It is a lot of work. But I believe it will be worth it in the end.
                       
 

Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2011, 10:09:19 PM »
   @All,
 I will be able to return to work Dec. 26th.
This will allow me to prepare for my build. Until then,
per Alan's request, I won't talk wheel. Since
I have a specific design I believe will prove Bessler's
claims are within reason, it would be difficult to consider
something else.
 Of course, I happen to like discussing how what I believe
I have discovered is supported by various descriptions of
his wheel. I think it is something everyone who supports
Bessler like myself would find interesting. But Alan is one man
who believes people should do as he would or they are fools.
 I'm glad I'm not him. And when I get started on the build, I'll
post it.
  And then everyone can decide for themselves what they think.
 
                                            Jim
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #82 on: December 17, 2011, 03:22:02 PM »

  You're not to bright Alan. You are always telling other people to prove to you. It's a 2 way street. And with Bessler, what is the need to keep secrets ?
 And considering Bessler was bitter until he died, and to keep his wheel a secret ? It seems he lost much by not making known what he had discovered. he also was not recognized for his understanding of engineering concepts. In some things, he was ahead of his time. But if he would have made his work known, he probably would have inspired many people with his engineering. But this did not happen, did it ?
 And that is why I am working openly. I do not wish to make his same mistake.
And I also happen to think a lot of people might find it interesting what it takes to make a wheel such as his work. It seems you and your friends have no such desire or merely wish attention for how you percieve yourselves. Either way, I think you and your friends are the fools. Look at how few people post in besslerwheel any more. It seems experts like you do more damage than skeptics ever have.
 
                                                                        Jim
 
edited to add; maybe you're just not up to a decent challenge. It is a lot of work. But I believe it will be worth it in the end.
                     

Jim and anyone reading

 First off when I say show your proof it is to everyone, when they claim a running wheel. Jim like to twist this as we see in what he wrote. Then he praises himself. while trying to slander what I do.

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2011, 03:51:44 PM »
   @All,
 I will be able to return to work Dec. 26th.
This will allow me to prepare for my build. Until then,
per Alan's request, I won't talk wheel. Since
I have a specific design I believe will prove Bessler's
claims are within reason, it would be difficult to consider
something else.
 Of course, I happen to like discussing how what I believe
I have discovered is supported by various descriptions of
his wheel. I think it is something everyone who supports
Bessler like myself would find interesting. But Alan is one man
who believes people should do as he would or they are fools.
 I'm glad I'm not him. And when I get started on the build, I'll
post it.
  And then everyone can decide for themselves what they think.
 
                                            Jim

Now here we have Jim saying a LIE about per so called my request. When I said that he can say what he wants. Just don't talk about me.  Now I see he is setting up his own private forum for the second time on this same project for years. Here is the string link where he is announcing it.

 www.overunity.com/11787/my-forum/

I wonder what happened to/with the first one? :o


I have posted more of my build test in this one string than Jim has posted in the forums. I did misname it IMO. I should of added Test in front of the word wheel in the description.

www.overunity.com/9301/how-to-build-a-gravity-wheel/


Yes everyone will decide what they think, for it is their free will to do so.

Alan


Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #84 on: December 17, 2011, 04:43:10 PM »
  Alan,
 Since this is the gravity section of Stefan's forum, why don't we discuss how gravity effects engineering ?
 Watched a show about the ancient Greeks. What was interesting is what they missed about the Parthenon. The 4 corner columns they thought were tilted inward only to give the illusion of straight lines from a distance.
 What they missed was that when the load from the roof was placed on it, if it had a peak or elevated center, then it would push outward. Much like the peak of columns in mideival cathedrals. By having the cloumns tlilted inwards, this would cause the roof to have to lift them to spread outward and colapse.
 Something mideival engineers missed. Of course this is before the time of the Romans.
 With the cathedrals, some have had to have modern reenforcements to avoind interior walls from collapsing. They thought building them wider with more arches would have taken care of this problem. In the short term yes. But in the long term, stress wins out.
 What they could have done was to make the archways thicker. This would have allowed the base of the arch, the point in which it moves in a straight line downward to have been supported by a tilted column. Then a facade could have been built on both sides of the archway and to the ceiling and have given the cathedrals a more dramatic look.
 By the way, it was Germanic tribes who caused the fall of Rome. They realized by destroying their aqueducts that Rome would not have water for daily use much as we use it today. As a result, it's population of 1 million people could not be supported. As a result, Rome's population fell to 12,000 people. It's the little things people seem to take for granted.
 And I have sent pese a pm wishing him well.
 
                                                                            Jim
 
edited to add; Alan, just becaue you own your own business and can afford expensive materials like Mercury to work with is no reason to brag about.
 Myself, I work for a living. I don't think you should expect me to have deep pockets like you and your friends have.
 
                                                                            Jim

Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2011, 09:49:07 PM »
   @All,
 This is where being able to post and think through idea's has helped me.
The drawing shows how Mt 20 can work.
 http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_020.gif
 The drawing I am attaching shows how with the description of warped boards
and a weight landing on a warped board or short plank can work.
 The short lever or scissor would have a pulley at the end of it. This would allow it
to roll on the back side of a warped board. as the wheel rotates, the long lever would
exert more pressure on the scissor. When the point where the pulley is has closed the
warped board, the weight would land on a short board extending from the warped board.
 The short warped board would reinforce the shape of the warped board, structural support.
This basic design would be for a small wheel such as I might be building. Unlike Alan, I do
not need to build to know. I accept that Bessler was successful.
 There would be a short post such as the one at the 3 o'clock position. This would be for
guides attached to the warped board. This would help to keep all the mechanics in alignment.
 The drawing I did shows about a 1.5 to 1 ratio. If the weight on the lever were 1.5 times as much as the water, then it would be a 3 to 1 ratio. Bessler said to make 3 stones fly as 1 and then go lightly.
 Be it as it may, rlortie and Ab Hammer have criticized me for bilding some of Bessler's drawings as they do not believe there is a working wheel in them. And this last statement contradicts what Bessler himself is quoted as saying. And of course alan will say I am lying.
 I can link to my account at photobucket.com that shows some of my work which was open source. It's what has helped me along with my schooling and work experience to understand this. It is not by accident that I happened to learn how Bessler's wheel worked.
 And water or light oil would work better than mercury. With something like mercury, it could create a fracture point in the warped boards which could eventually cause it to break.
 Hope you all have a Merry Christmas.
 
                                                                              Jim
 
p.s. the drawing is about 1/2 scale for a 20 inch in diameter or about a 58 cm wheel.
 it's designed to use about 12 ounces of water or about 21 cubic inches.
 
edited to add; as the warped boards close, the water is pumped upwards. As a result, the wheel rotates making the next weight to put more pressure on the warped board it's scissor is pushing against. And then it repeats again and agian and again and agian. Rather boring if you think about it   :o
 And Alan, if you and Ralph want, you guys can build it. After all, it is Bessler's wheel and Germany would probaly have the rights to it. Historical artifact and all that. Your a lawyer, you should know this stuff.
 But will it make us friends ? Nope. It just depends if you guys dislike me more than you like Bessler. Only building will tell.
 
                                                                             Bye

Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2011, 09:59:26 PM »
   @All,
 Almost forgot, in Mt 20, Bessler said to tether your horse in front (the direction
you want it to go).
With this design, the weight on the long lever would be tethered.
Prevent breakage, etc. When it goes over top center, it would fall towards the hub.
 This is where tethering it would limit it's motion and possibly help maintain the imbalance of the wheel.
 
                                                                         Jim

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2011, 12:28:49 AM »

 And Alan, if you and Ralph want, you guys can build it. After all, it is Bessler's wheel and Germany would probaly have the rights to it. Historical artifact and all that. Your a lawyer, you should know this stuff.
 But will it make us friends ? Nope. It just depends if you guys dislike me more than you like Bessler. Only building will tell.
 
                                                                             Bye

I see you changed your lever since I said something about your picture in post 59 on page 4. What I said was on page 5 post 60 about it. But now your change needs a roller on the short end to lessen the friction. But a good change.  ::) Just some advice from a real builder.

First off with this quoted statement of yours make no since except highlighted in red. But make us friends?? where did that come from? What little early friendship died a long time ago when you couldn't follow reasoning and got nasty on Bessler wheel forum.  And when I tried to be nice you on forums, you told stories about me and you will never stop. This I have accepted and most everyone else has as well I believe.

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2011, 02:18:34 AM »
I am not up on all the gravity stuff that is being tried, and well I probably never will be but I have not heard of any person making a very simple observation about mass falling under the influence of gravity, never making the observation that even when the mass is moving up it is applying a force down that can be used while you are lifting the mass back up, pulling it up by it's own bootstraps if you will.

Lets say you have a chain loop running over a sprocket, on this chain you hang a mass, as gravity pulls down on the mass it also pulls the chain turning the sprocket, now if you have a lifting device on the mass which reaches up the chain and grabs hold and lifts the mass back up you have allowed for two things to happen, first is that the input value from the mass is continuous, no stop in applied force, and second you have opened the system up to allow for an outside force to enter the system.  So the lifting mechanism is something like a spring loaded arm that is stretched up and the spring pulls the mass up, the force the spring needs to apply is the same force that the mass gives while it is falling, an even trade but the mass is still pulling and falling while you are lifting it back up, maybe something extra can be had there?

If this has been talked about then excuse my interuption and ignorance.

Tom Webb

Greetings Tom

To have a wheel seam to power its self, by using the effect of gravity is the goal. What we find is anything that has to be use to make these movements ( the falling weight) have to be more powerful to make the second of shifting movement of like weight. The weight's value tend to cancel each other out. That is why the quest is so hard and called impossible by science. There has to be something else that we have missed. Bessler did it back in the early 18th century I fully believe. That is why the study of Bessler is part of our quest. It is impossible to prove a design is Bessler's but a running wheel will validate Bessler's success for his time. The quest in its self is fascinating and you always want to keep in mind. It is not always the journeys end but what you learn on the way.

Alan

Offline johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2011, 05:13:56 PM »
I see you changed your lever since I said something about your picture in post 59 on page 4. What I said was on page 5 post 60 about it. But now your change needs a roller on the short end to lessen the friction. But a good change.  ::) Just some advice from a real builder.

First off with this quoted statement of yours make no since except highlighted in red. But make us friends?? where did that come from? What little early friendship died a long time ago when you couldn't follow reasoning and got nasty on Bessler wheel forum.  And when I tried to be nice you on forums, you told stories about me and you will never stop. This I have accepted and most everyone else has as well I believe.

  Alan,
 >> But now your change needs a roller on the short end to lessen the friction. But a good change <<
 
 Read what I posted. I said it did.
 
>> What little early friendship died a long time ago when you couldn't follow reasoning and got nasty on Bessler wheel forum. <<
 
 I think when you post I am the ultimate fraud would show I was never your friend.
http://besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4656
 
 and someone posted this thread. Doubt it was your wife Alan.
>> There are few individuals that get me irate on this site when they abuse my husband's intelligence for those people your not allow to do that, only I am, it is in my marriage contract so unless you want to marry my hubby back off. << 
 
   I mean really, you will openly call someone who has openly built a fraud.
 Using staionary arms;
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/bessler_supporter/Picture0121.jpg)
 Using moveable levers/arms
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/bessler_supporter/23levers.gif)
 Bessler's clue of the child's toy
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_138-141.gif
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/bessler_supporter/Mt24mod1.jpg)
 
 
 As you just mentioned, a real builder would put a roller at the end of the lever.
What I posted, lines 6 & 7.
>> The short lever or scissor would have a pulley at the end of it. This would allow it
to roll on the back side of a warped board. <<
 I think this is why I do not like you.
 Be it as it may Alan, I have never seen you build anything. NEVER.
 Yet you criticize my efforts because openly building gives me something to talk about with other people. And as you told me and whorton both, you will build our ideas, but you will also show they won't work. You always have that caveat in it for yourself.
 Don't need your help Alan as you do not recognize my education and work experience.
 
                                                                           Jim
 
edited to add; Alan, when I was being treated for cancer, you would not allow me to discuss the build I was working on. Why we will never be friends.