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Author Topic: Standing Waves in Generators  (Read 53320 times)

Offline xenomorphlabs

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Standing Waves in Generators
« on: July 25, 2011, 02:47:39 AM »
After finding no plausible explanation for the
30 Watt energy gain in Romeouk's Muller generator
i have stumbled about some mindful comments by
user Bolt about the possibility that the energy gain
might be from standing waves or a resonance condition
in the generator coils.

Quote from Bolt:

Quote
A series capacitor within a transformer circuit
assumes text book example so there is no increase in
energy thus nothing to be gained. Lets move on...

Romero coil configuration is VASTLY different as each coil
wire out of phase produces a dipole. In between that dipole
there is a virtual capacitance layer which is charged from
the passing neo magnet between the dipole gap.
When the neo has induced a maximal magnetic flux the electric field
in the virtual capacitor is decaying, because of feeding inductance
with electrical current, external electric field from inductance
tries to recharge charge this capacitor by displacement current.
As a result, capacitor pumps energy from M field, and real JOULES o/p
of the systems rises. We allow this to happen because the coils
are wired out of phase. So self created magnetic flux is
minimal thus the BEMF is made ZERO not NULL. 
The energy does NOT come from the neo magnet directly
it only creates the conditions to allow this to happen more efficiently! 
The same methods can be employed by using other similar methods
to charge the virtual capacitance layer. It can even be done using
air coils if they are wound as flat Teslas Coils.
Please understand this the magnets in a desired operational
system ONLY recharge the virtual capacitance layer they do
NOT directly induce a current into the coils. Stop thinking
conventional and you might get somewhere.

Double coils can be made by winding up the two electric wires
to the magnetic core as a Bifilar coil or as opposing dipole.
It can be seen that the dipole itself must be tuned to the
resonance frequency of the desired rpm * the number of
passing magnets. This is how Romero produced a self resonance coil
by hours and hours of tuning and clipping the wave lengths without
an additional tuning capacitor. Remember Romero said "you can use
capacitors its another method and probably much easier!"

  After it can electrify the magnetic core into negative, we can
then flow the electric current in the double coils out of phase
but at that moment the relative opposite self-induction phenomenon
appears between the free electrons attached to the magnetic core
and the free electrons flowing in the double-coils. As a result of
that, a negative energy can be stored in the surroundings where
the relative magnetic field appears. Now we have a negative inductor
which consists of the magnetic core electrified into negative
and the double coils (non-inductive coil dipole) in which the
currents with the same quantity and the opposite directions
flow as pure VARS. The greater the VARS the more intense the KINETIC energy.

The negative inductance of the negative inductor is
proportional to the product of the rate of change of the
relative magnetic fluxes piercing the coil and the number
of turns of the coil, like the general inductor.

The negative inductor stores a negative energy in a space
where the relative magnetic field appears, and as a counteraction,
the inductor generates an electric power with a positive energy.
The free electrons which got a kinetic energy from a space as
accelerating returns the kinetic energy to the space as decelerating.
In a normal conductor, the free electrons lose the kinetic energy by
colliding with the atoms. In this case, the atoms which enhanced their
vibration energy by the collisions with the free electrons radiate heat.
In the electric wire of the negative inductor, the kinetic energy of the
electrons go in and out the space, so that the electrons influence the
atoms just a little. For this reason, the free electrons work to buffer
the thermal vibrations of the atoms. That is, the negative inductor
becomes cold in the operation. The same phenomenon occurs in a
conductor just charged into negative as well. Though the free
electrons in the conductor are making motions in their random directions
while colliding with the atoms, these free electrons cancel out each
other's speed, so the current does not appear macroscopically.
This situation is equal to the one in which the two currents with
the same quantity and different directions flow into the
non-inductive double coils.

So to understand  the negative energy is a energy or a matter
which follows an imaginary time. From the Dirac equation, the
energy of a particle ( a electron ) can be positive or negative. 
The negative energy is excluded from physical subjects, as it is
not realistic. SO ITS IGNORED with conventional physics! In order
to make the signs be negative, it needs to be understood that the
time should be an imaginary number and the space should be a real number.

OK what does this mean in English? it basically means you tune to
max VARS into a short circuit then open the short into the load
and if you fulfil everything else above you tap the ZPE.
Once understood within our grasp to convert this to solid state system
and kapanadze is so close to what i described above you will not
believe it! I mentioned the general process he uses before in other posts.


So far i have not been experimentally able to
create resonance with a series cancelling bifilar coil,
but am planning to sweep a higher frequency range now
and use different capacitor ranges.

I am convinced that standing waves can account for
energy gain in several overunity devices and think this
deserves a deeper discussion as well as experimentation.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 03:40:53 AM by xenomorphlabs »

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Standing Waves in Generators
« on: July 25, 2011, 02:47:39 AM »

Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 03:40:40 AM »
This is basically my simple test set-up:

A series cancelling bifilar coil of zero inductance at varying rotor speeds
and also varying capacitor values.
The voltage meter reads nothing.
To prove the theory, the voltage meter should show
a charge on the cap once resonance is hit and
the cap is charged on the pure voltage node, therefore
the ampmeter should still read zero then.

This is similar to the Avramenko plug.
To understand this approach transmission line theory is required.

Some experimenters have measured in-phase currents to the FWBR, but then the phase-shift is probably not 180 degrees or the opposing inductors are different.

Unfortunately there is no formula (known) that would
give the right capacitor value for out-of-phase inductors.

I had initally thought it could be calculated by assuming
a series connection of 2 in-phase inductors or just using the inductance values of the individual coils forming the bifilar, but that did not work either.
It seems that there is a total different set of math involved with this.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 04:07:31 AM by xenomorphlabs »

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 04:07:48 AM »
Wondering, what do you make of Gyula's comment about "cold current"?  I think it refers to pure reactive current.  I recall something about it not being able to register on a normal ammeter, but should still sight a lamp.

M.

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 04:07:48 AM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 04:09:49 AM »
It seems that there is a total different set of math involved with this.

Excellent.

Please expound!

M.

Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 04:27:49 AM »
Wondering, what do you make of Gyula's comment about "cold current"?  I think it refers to pure reactive current.  I recall something about it not being able to register on a normal ammeter, but should still sight a lamp.

M.

This method is entirely reactive, you could even call it reactive resonance.
So the comparison to cold current might apply in a way.
As far as i know there is 3 types of radiant energy, electron spin, electro thermal and time density.
Since the power factor is zero there is no energy consumed in the circuit, 100 % reflected.
The actual charge on the dump cap is i believe a consequence of a displacement current trying to recharge the virtual capacitance layer in the dipole created by the cancelling coils. The dump capacitor plates can obviously turn this into real Joules not VARs.

About the math, i unfortunately am not aware of the right equation to calculate the resonance capacitance for out-of-phase inductors.
Since the inductance is technically zero, all known equations would send you to the "sun" hehe
And most physicist would roll with their eyes when you would ask them to calculate a resonance frequency for a zero inductor with no in-phase current.

I can at best see a correlation to the inductor wire length somehow, but that would drift away into the RF region again.
Some guy in a tesla forum has proven that the math for self resonance of most Tesla coils is based on straight conductors and that the self resonance
of curled conductors as in coils is about 6 times lower.

But i wanna at least give this theory some effort to see if i can establish this condition. In theory it makes perfect sense to me.

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 04:27:49 AM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 04:35:15 AM »
This method is entirely reactive, you could even call it reactive resonance.
So the comparison to cold current might apply in a way.
As far as i know there is 3 types of radiant energy, electron spin, electro thermal and time density.
Since the power factor is zero there is no energy consumed in the circuit, 100 % reflected.
The actual charge on the dump cap is i believe a consequence of a displacement current trying to recharge the virtual capacitance layer in the dipole created by the cancelling coils. The dump capacitor plates can obviously turn this into real Joules not VARs.

About the math, i unfortunately am not aware of the right equation to calculate the resonance capacitance for out-of-phase inductors.
Since the inductance is technically zero, all know equations would send you to the "sun" hehe

Same conclusions here!

I am very disheartened by every classically trained EE I have tried to explain this to.  They mostly appear unwilling to accept the idea of "reactive current" since that is a no-no in classical power transmition.

But as @bolt has said all along, VARs into a cap becomes usuable Joules.

Pretty neat, huh?

M.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 02:04:38 PM »
Wondering, what do you make of Gyula's comment about "cold current"?  I think it refers to pure reactive current.  I recall something about it not being able to register on a normal ammeter, but should still sight a lamp.

M.

Hi Folks,

I wrote on "cold current" this in Reply #4392 (Muller Dynamo):
"A good observation that once you still measure or normally indicate output current with the usual current meter it must be a conventional current.
Unconventional current (some call it 'cold'  current) is not supposed to be measured or even indicated by normal current meters, the presence of such current could be indicated by an incandescent lamp as other stated."

So I did NOT mean reactive current,  this latter CAN be measured with normal ammeters.  Just try to charge up a 100 or 470uF electrolytic cap via a series current meter from a simple 1.5V AA battery, you will see the (exponentially) diminishing current values till the full charge up state, beyond which the cap's leakage current would flow. The same happens with AC (if your current meter is quick enough to follow the AC frequency), a series of charging and discharging currentflows are repeated at the rate of the AC frequency.
I do not know what constitutes cold current (I mean in case of conventional current the electron flow does it), I simply referred to Floyd Sweet and Bearden's descriptions, where an incandescent lamp "is able" to sense the presence of cold current by giving a very 'whitish' light, while a series normal ammeter cannot show any cold current value...

So please do not mix "cold" and reactive currents.

Gyula

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 02:04:38 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 03:37:46 PM »
Thank you for the clarification.

Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 04:23:49 PM »

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 04:23:49 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2011, 06:39:10 PM »
Webby's link describes the differences between a series bifilar coil and opposed bucking coils well.

Quote
Basically, if we take two conventional coils, and connect them in
series, but orient them such that the poles of the two coils are in
opposition, what is often called 'bucking fields', we will find that the
total inductance is greater than that of a single coil.  The total
energy stored in the fields of the two coils is not significantly
effected by their orientation, and the system is highly inductive.
 
All we have done is to distort the flux, we have not canceled ANY flux
at all.

 
On the other hand, if we were to construct a bifilar coil with exactly
the same ammount of wire, we would find that the coil had nearly no
inductance at all, and stores no significant energy in the form of a
magnetic field.
 
Some have argued that the field is still present, even though the
current through such a coil reaches E/R in a time limited by stray
inductance alone.
 
but when we interrupt the circuit, such a coil return NO energy from
this supposed field
.
 
In this case, it appears that we have actually canceled flux, that is
the flux from adjecent bifilar windings has undergone true
superposition, or added algebraically to essentially zero magnetic flux.
 
Note that when we deal with whole poles of permanent magnets, or
conventional coils, this NEVER happens.
 
This apparent difference in magnetic field behavior is not a matter of
physical scale as some had suggested, as the bifilar coil simply does
not store, nor return any energy as an inductive coil does
.

I will try basically a comparison between a single core bifilar and two bucking coils as i have still the gut feeling that the virtual capacitance
might actually need physical distance or might need two magnetic fields that interact like in the bucking coil case where my bifilar does not develop any magnetic fields at all.

After all this is what Romero has used. Since his method is so much trial and error and weeks of tuning it is highly desirable to understand the maths behind these processes to be able to achieve the tuning by calculation of capacitances to aid the tuning.

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2011, 06:39:10 PM »
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Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2011, 11:53:20 PM »
As expected this is not simulatable as well. (Has been shown by other users already, just was puzzling with it)

If the inductors are 100% equal you get femto-amperes of currents.
When making them slightly different, the out of phase signals are visible.
Simulating a series LC would probably just give the resonance frequency for a single inductor.

The big mystery to me is still how Romero hit resonance just with Biasing magnets. It becomes more and more plausible that the resonance in question might NOT be an electrical (oscillatory) resonance.
If it was the biasing magnets would have to create a 100 - 200 uF (virtual) capacitance.

The bigger mystery is how Romero actually knew what he was tuning for?
I still think that one of the active experimenters would sooner or later stumble over an outstanding energy gain when experimenting with bucking coils.

I have tuned for capacitances between 0 and 200 uF and i should have hit at least the outer edge of the bandwidth of any possible resonance and see the cap charge up, but no success yet.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2011, 12:15:58 AM »
I would like to ask a question:

If I have a bifilar coil and the coils are not connected, if I connect my meter to one leg of each coil is there any way I could get an AC V reading from my meter when I turn the rotor?  a reading that goes up the faster I turn the rotor.

Yes, I think the capacitance between the two coils due to the closeness of their wires can pass an increasing current with the increasing RPM.  Because there seems to be no closed circuit the two coils has no any connection to each other except capacitive coupling. However, this voltage cannot be loaded because the capacitive inner impedance is very high hence power gets lost in that cap.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 12:30:36 AM »
Webby, one more thing:  it is also a possibility that your meter probes, being close to the rotor, can pick up induced voltage in the probes wires. To minimize this, try arranging the probe wires radially leading them away from the rotor.

Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: Standing Waves in Generators
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 12:36:23 AM »
I would like to ask a question:

If I have a bifilar coil and the coils are not connected, if I connect my meter to one leg of each coil is there any way I could get an AC V reading from my meter when I turn the rotor?  a reading that goes up the faster I turn the rotor.

Correction, wires were wrongly corrected.

So the correct version is that you do get a nice Voltage waveform,
but cannot extract current. Have not been able to power a load or anything, shows zero mA.

I wonder if this has any potential for development. Maybe by decreasing the impedance somehow.

LCR Meter shows 6.3 nF capacitance between the windings (if that measurement can actually be taken, since it`s not a standard cap)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 01:03:24 AM by xenomorphlabs »

 

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