Dear Kysmett,

Thank you for the info.  I am trying to clear this up.  All I can do is quote what other people have said.  Please refer or even post at the following thread,

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.legal/browse_frm/thread/cad68b3827840669/b8fb0991d9d99d67#b8fb0991d9d99d67

I would very much like to clear this up.  Could you please break down the advantages and disadvantages to publishing, patenting, and trademarks.

Thanks,
Paul

Here is another public statement in the misc.legal thread:

Quote,
+++++++++++
You're probably best off first applying for a patent, and then
publishing information about your device.
In most of the world, if your invention is published before you apply
for a patent, then you have lost your patent rights.  The United States
is one of the few exceptions; in the US you have one year to apply for
a patent after publication.
US patent law (and I believe world-wide) requires that the application
be made by a "true inventor."  If someone else were to read your
publication, and then apply for a patent on your invention it would be
fraud and a valid patent would not issue.
One disadvantage of publicly disclosing your invention prior to
applying for a patent is that others may publish or apply for patents
on related inventions.  This could limit the value of your patent.
I don't know exactly what you mean by "self-patent."  A patent is
a privilege conferred by a government - it gives you the right to sue
someone else for infringing your patented invention.
If by "self-patent" you mean apply for a patent yourself, the legal
term is a "pro se" application.  It is your right to file pro se
- at least in the United States.  You should know however, that
patent applications are complex documents and the patent office
procedures are quite involved.  You may wish to look at the US Patent &
Trademark Office website (http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm).  A
list of registered patent agents and patent attorneys is linked to that
page.
Good luck,
------- ------
Registered Patent Agent
+++++++++++


Although, if you such an inventor has a legitimate free energy device, and you chose to first patent, then I strongly recommend that you mail the complete exact build instructions of such a machine to numerous trusted people.  If anything ever happened to you, then at least the world would get the technology.  Anyone who is seriously on the verge of building a legitimate free energy device is advised to set up such an agreement with people in advance.  It would be nice if such people could sign an agreement that they will not publish and/or patent such information unless they do not hear from you within a certain amount of days.

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on this topic.

Sincerely,
Paul

Dear Bush Wacker,

I'm not hear to argue, I just wanted to tell you what it had taken me years to finally learn. Everyone must make their own choices, and everyone has their own opinions.

Nobody is trying to argue with you.

If you are worried about someone taking credit for your idea's and/or work, there are people who have more than enough money to change written history if they want to.

No, I am trying to provide a means where by the inventor can provide as much assurance as possible that the invention can be controlled for the benefit of the world.  This has nothing to do with personal ego.

About a year or two before Howard Johnson's magnetic motor/generator hit the news, I had already put the idea and information in a legally sealed package, along with a legal notice which was signed by three witnesses and stamped and signed by a legal notary public. I mailed the package to myself which provided the postal stamp and date that the package was mailed. I had the package placed in a large vault and then gave instructions to 12 people of whom I will not name, and instructions that upon my death or disappearance, the vault would be opened and the 12 people would then distribute the information as far around the globe as possible by various means.

Good idea.  That's what I am also suggesting.  I'm open further details and ideas from anyone.

no matter what you think about it all, or how much money you can afford to spend on all the legal stuff, there are multi-billion dollar corporations that can get around it all. I had talked to many lawyer's and patent experts, and even joined a state inventor's congress before finally learning the truth about all the details.

There are no guarantees with anything in life Bush Wacker.  The idea is to increase your chances as best you can.  I do not subscribe to the mentality that if something's not a guarantee then why use it?  Rather, IMHO I'll take every advantage that I can.  Patents are no guarantee but from what I've heard so far it is by far the best option.  I am still waiting for anyone to provide some facts why a trademark is better than a patent.  Dave at the misc.legal has provided some good points.  He is saying that the Trademark protects the name, not the actual machine.  Are you still suggesting to these people here that they do a trademark rather than a patent or publish?

Sincerely,
Paul

I'm told the process of the inventor doing his or her own patent is called "pro se" application.  Here's the U.S. web site:

http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm

I've seen numerous books on this.  They make it sound like a piece of cake.  With modern computers, I think everyone could manage to draw and scan their own work.  Also, they could use the example of a similar patent as a template.  Most patents seem to follow the same type of writing format.  That should not take long.  Once the patent is submitted, do you know how long it might take to get finalized?

note:
big companies are big for one reason, they are great at industerial thieft in a manner that leaves thier hands clean while taking small ideas and making the big million dollar deals.

the min cost to legally and properly file for patent, and do all the legal follow-up through the approval process is app. 3000.00usd. and i for one do not have that kind of cash to throw to the winds so that some big weasel of a corp can steal and re-work my simple idea, then go into production and  the public.

in my reasearch i found that the only real serious way to protect your arse is to do a "poorman's patent". first think through a very simple description of your good and novel concept. and then do a cleanly written job of covering all bases in plain writting, and then mail it to your self (and others with the statement to those friends? "DO NOT OPEN THIS"). and if there is ever a cause to ever defend your idea as your own, you go to court with your postal date stamped letter. the judge has judicial rights to open the postal sealed and stamped/ with date documents... and read the documentations, enter that information/judgement into the court records....and best of all that same judge has the right and duty to RESEAL that same document with a JUDICIAL COURT SEAL for further "reading and discovery of intent to make or invent a novel idea" from your own writtings.

PRESTO!! you are covered, without the app. 3000.00usd cost... or the threat of death... or the dark industerial concept of thieft by big multinational corps....etc. this is simple and basically fool proof. and it cost the price of simple postage and a phone call to each of your friends to store "that letter" in a very secure place. then when you "go public" let one and all know what you have done.... and why.

with these simple steps you can live longer, and have the rights of your invention, share a needed idea with an impoverished world, and if all goes well with your production scheme.... cash!!

trademarks and goodwill are "assets", not protection of any business. yes, the word zerex, mobile oil, ibm, etc. are both recognized and respected for thier corp values. (good or bad), but these are not a form of protection for a business venture or an idea.

as good an asset as a proven quality trademark or a trade name or a time derived value of goodwill may be, neither of these will protect a given product or a production scheme. these are buisness asset values built up over time, not to be confused with current production, current profits, or current value. if a old recognized business is suddenly takenover and starts to produce a crap product that trademark,goodwill, and trade name will dive to the value of zero.

as long as profit and greed exist in the human heart there will be some yahoo that will either try to beat the your system or will outright kill and steal to procure your goods. the best way i see to win is to produce a given product and get in into folks hands. and do it cheaper, better, and faster than the guy that sits and says,"i have it and i will wait for a better price." there is an old addage that goes ...snooze and loose. remember, when the first iron stoves were made it was not the best one that made the consumer happy but the one they could both afford and get locally. some inventors had a superior item, but if it was not available the customer went to purchase a need. they bought from an inferior company and they bought an inferior product. in short if they need it they will buy it, whatever quality is available! you may have the best item, but if the customer can not get your product they will get another some where else.
 
note: as soon as there is just one working unit out there in the public domain, that unit is fair game for backward eng., so then the race is on to get more widgets into production cheaper, quicker, at a better price or better quality.

and while the 'windfall' profit motive is driving the big corps and stockholders, the 'profit' motive it's self ain't all bad (curently misdirected and abused, but not all bad). for this motive will cause each of us to get the construction diagrams and word out to all. everyone can sell plans or parts and construction methods, that is profit. and each of us can make complete items for sale, that is profit. then everyone can do for thier family as best as they can. if that private person in need can not build a unit for themselves, they should have access to buy either the parts or a complete unit at the cheapest price for a given quality. this secondary factor is our chance to be both a humanitarian (here are the plans and digrams for a very low price) and a businessman for profit (since you can not, or will not make it for yourself, i have it for sale).

a free and open marketplace and the customer's driving needs will force the creation and the distribution of the 'finding', the 'getting', and the 'making' of that needed item. to one and all, the needs of today drive all of us to find that new and novel idea.? if you can build my widget for less than i can; i need to review my supply chain, my overhead, and my goals. a sharp businessman is forever asking, " how did he do that, at that price?"

speaking of business is secondary to, and in contrast with, getting a new or novel idea (zpe) into the private hands that most need to have it.?

i see this as a driveing need that should be above all else to save lives and homes and also produce profit for the inventor. we can have our cake and eat it at the same time if we can seriously ascribe to the basic ideal of..." IF A CUSTOMER CAN NOT PERSONALLY BUILD A GIVEN ITEM, and that customer still has a serious need for it, they should be able to find a place and way to purchase/barter/swap/('work for food')/etc to have it for thier family". all prior cultures and countries were origionally founded on these principals. and as long as those given cultures worked from this basis, they grew in prosperity. we seem to have gotten off that track. when a person could not build a quality iron cookstove by themselves, they bought one from the foundry. if they had two houses, they bought two good quality cookstoves. demand drives production.

I'm trying to avoid patenting creativity. Here's the poor mans read only pouch: Buy a binder pouch with a clear vinyl window. Insert 4x6 cocument so the important writing is visible. Zip closed. Apply sealing wax. With good technique, attach address label and postage to document its going through the mail.

The main thing is to run your enterprize with respectable competence.

Aloha, Charlie

Sorry guys for being so slow to respond, had a bit of a vacation there.

First off.  The poor man's patent thing.  Mostly worthless.  Unless you get the court to seal it the first time, it can be argued that the glue of an envelope is subject to tampering(ie. steaming). 

Second.  Screw this whole patenting fervor.  It is a tool now not of the common man but of big business.  The corporate machine is now driving the goverment and keeping the masses around an content only because the businesses need a consumer base.  Patent it, don't patent it, it really doesn't matter when you are playing with the big boys. 

Third.  Two words: Forman Grill.   This is where TM protection comes into play.  Everyone, in the States at least, knows and recognises this product.  There are knock offs and immitations, to be sure, but even then the item is refered to by the trade name of Forman Grill.  If two identicle items were sitting on the shelf and one said "forman grill" and the other said "fat reducer" the forman grill would outperform in a heartbeat. 

If someone wants to make it better and compete with what you have put out... I wish that were the most important concern for those of us on this and similar forums.  As it is, we are only praying that ANY product makes it to the market place.  If there are more than one manufacturer and there is competition, we have done our jobs.  We have brought the technology out of hiding.  My best advice in this realm is to not patent, but produce and build an inventory.  File a provisional patent, but without waiting for the confirmation (patent protection where proof of first concept is extended to filing date), launch the sales of the product locally and get some testimonials.  Infomercial, Infomercial, Talk Show, Talk Show, play the game.

At that point you will have a monopoly on the market for a short while.  If you can come up with a catchy name and TM that.  If you play the market launch right, you will have more name recognition than any of the big guys right out of the gate, and since you filed for a provisional only days before your launch, the big boys will have very little warning of the market invasion...what in American Football is called a blitz.

Just my thoughts and thanks for listening

Kysmett