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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: DeepCut on July 04, 2011, 09:20:26 PM

Title: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 04, 2011, 09:20:26 PM
Hi, another noob questoin from me i'm sure someone here can explain it.

I am driving a standard Bedini SSG circuit from a DC power supply.

With one drive coil attached i was drawing 18V @ 300mA and getting 1400 RPM.

I attached a second drive coil in series with the first and i was drawing 18V @ 150mA and getting 1485 RPM.

Questions :

1. Why is the rotor spinning faster ?

2. Why has the input amps been cut by 50% ?

Any education greatly appreciated :)


Cheers,

Gary.
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Cherryman on July 04, 2011, 10:30:59 PM
Maybe the old saying "Divide and Conquer" does not only work in politics  ;)
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 04, 2011, 10:55:18 PM
Considering what we discussed at OUR, is there a possibility that we can have just 1 or 2 gen sets and the rest are drivers. ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: gyulasun on July 04, 2011, 11:11:35 PM
Gary,

The input current is reduced to half value because it 'sees' double the DC resistance and double the AC impedance wrt the single coil case.

On your first question: Cherryman gave a good answer I believe,  The more permanent magnets you use in such pulse motors and the more input coils you let interacting with those magnets, the higher the rpm may climb up.   Putting it otherwise: the more flux you enter into the setup (by using the many permanent magnets) the better the efficiency of the input power usage becomes.  I am not saying this input efficiency may increase beyond 100% by this 'divide and conquer' method because I have not tried it but it is sure it increases as said above.  (Years ago member Ian showed this in a youtube video.  See his posts here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1754.msg31932#msg31932 )

Gyula
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 12:15:54 AM
Thanks Gyula.

I haven't added any more magnets, just additional drive coils, there are now three coils.

The drive-coils are aircore.

I'm now getting an RPM of 1305 with an input power of 0.97W, whereas with one coil i was getting  an RPM of 1400 with an input power of 6W, that's great for what i plan to do but i would love to understand it !

It's probably worth mentioning that the two additional drive coils are just like the first one, bifilar wound with a trigger wire and a power wire, but in the two new coils the trigger wires are disconnected.

Bedtime ... zzz ...
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Jdo300 on July 05, 2011, 12:50:00 AM
Hi DeepCut,

Also, your coils are going to operate most efficiently if they are matched to the input voltage you want to drive them at. In addition to the extra DC resistance and inductance, the rise time of pulses will be slower, which means the magnetic field has more time to transfer energy to the magnet to push the rotor. Additionally, if you're using a power supply that is current limited, the input voltage will drop if the instantaneous current required by the coils is too high. Having a higher inductance allows the power to be used more efficiently.

- Jason O
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 12:52:55 AM
Thanks for that Jason.

Couldn't resist it, found my old coil box and have added a fourth coil, current draw (untuned) is 75mA and RPM is 1402 !

Is this happening because 4 little coils are just like one big one ? Does a larger drive coil have a stronger magnetic field because of the larger number of turns even though the input power is the same ?


Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 05, 2011, 01:11:59 AM
Hi folks, i posted this at EF awhile back on my garry stanley thread.

Quote
I ran some more tests with my motor to verify Newman's principle and that which woopy and Ian discovered as well. I wired all 6 coils in series and started with 2 coils connected in series with 24 volt input, with a draw of 1amp for 24 watts @ 5 ohms total coil resistance, the motor had little torque and could not maintain much load at a particular speed. Then I wired 4 coils in series with 36 volt input, with a draw of around 700milliamps for around 24 watts @ 10 ohms total coil resistance, the motor had much greater torque and could maintain a higher load at a particular speed. Then I wired all 6 coils in series with 48 volt input, with a draw of around .5amps for around 24 watts @ 15 ohms total coil resistance, the motor again had even greater torque and could now burn my hands at a particular speed. I think this is very significant and by increasing amount of coils and magnets the motor would supply even greater and greater shaft work with the same input watts. I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

So my observations confirm what deepcut is questioning and I do think at some point the produced or production efficiency, which is what coefficient of performance relates to, can exceed COP>1.
peace love light
tyson ;)
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 05, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
I posted this at OUR a bit earlier today   it relates...  ;]

Another excellent example is audio speakers.  Say subs.

If you have 1 sub running 100w and it gives 100db, we need to increase the power to 200w to get 103db   3db increase for each doubling of input power. 

But, if we have 2 subs, same sensitivity, and we apply 50w each, each will have 97db output, but when they are combined, we get a 6db increase!  Same power input, divided into 2 drivers, and we achieve 103db @100w   not 200w to 1 driver.   ;]

And you can do this again with 4 drivers at 25w each and you will get 106db @100w not 400w to 1 driver.

Did custom car audio fer bout 20 years. 


Mags
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 01:32:20 AM
@Mags, wouldn't it be great if The Secret Was In The Bass ! Music and energy :)

@Sky (and all) Yes i've just tuned it running with four coils now and am getting 1417 RPM @ 0.97 Watts :)

I have an alternator magnet-rotor at the top-end of the shaft, tomorrow my coil cores arrive, they are masonry anchor shields :

http://www.transtools.co.uk/store/prod_5326/screws-and-fixings/shield-anchors/masonry-shield-anchor-loose-bolt-m10-x-10-x-65mm-10-pack.html

I will wrap these tomorrow and see what comes out of the other end.

That's me for the night, it's half past midnight here in the UK.

DC out :)
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 05, 2011, 01:45:15 AM
Very cool.   In the speaker example, the output rises as the input is the same. In your example it is the same as adding speakers in series, and the impeadance(resistance) increases pulling less current from the rated amp, yet still achieving the same output.  ;]

So if you had 16 coils, will the input be near .24w at 1400rpm?    ;]


32?  .14w?  1400 rpm?   ;]

Now, how do we apply this seemingly multiplying function to gen coils? ;]

Mags

Edited to change 140 to 1400   =-]  And again ma to w  ;]
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 05, 2011, 01:58:22 AM
Ya know,  give this a try for the fun of it, when you wake tomorrow. 

Put a freewheel diode on each coil, of the 4 you have now.

Just have the diode polarity so that it doesnt conduct during input, but when the input is disconnected, the diode will freewheel the coil to get a longer push. ;]  trust me, I been doin it for a while now.

You should see at least 200 rpm increase at .97w  And actually, if you would report your rpm and watt findings, Ive seen a lowering of the input using this method.  ;]

Oh  I meant to say watts instead of ma in the above post.  Sorry

Mags
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 11:14:51 AM
I don't understand. I just googled freewheel diodes and understand how they use energy from inductive loads, but i can't see how i would connect one to each coil.\

*EDIT ADD*

I'm being dumb aren't i ? There's only one place i can stick the diodes, in between the coils !

OK will try then post results.
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 11:51:12 AM
OK i tested it with just one diode (1N4001) in between the last two coils in the series and my current draw went down to .052 but my RPM went down as well.

Maybe i'm doing it wrong, i just connected the diode in series with two of the drive coils ?

This is what i don't understand :

"Just have the diode polarity so that it doesnt conduct during input, but when the input is disconnected, the diode will freewheel the coil to get a longer push."

If i have the diode the other way round then no current will conduct and there is no rotation at all, or do i need to add more than just a diode ?


Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: gyulasun on July 05, 2011, 02:16:35 PM
Hi Gary,

The diodes come in parallel with the coils, one diode per one coil, so 3 diodes if you have already 3 coils.
And on the diode polarity: Magluvin wrote it,  if you did not get it: a diode in parallel with a coil should see reverse bias polarity when you switch ON the coil.  This way the spike from the collapsing field at switch-off will be directed back to the coil and it maintains for little time the coil current. This means that you can reduce the ON time of the switch a little so this
reducement is a benefit in input power.

Gyula

PS: in my previous post I wanted to write torque rather than RPM when I referred to RPM which increases as the number of input coils and the number of permanent magnets are increased. RPM also increases a little though.
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 05, 2011, 02:25:39 PM
Hey Deep

Put the diode in parallel on each coil..  Say if you can see the Pos input to the coil, the cathode(silver bar end of diode) of the diode to that side of the coil. the diode wont conduct till the drive is disconnected.

 This will allow current to continue in the coil for a bit beyond the time the drive current is disconnected.

More rotation benefit without using more input. the inductor acts as a flywheel.

Ill draw it up after work if you dont get it by then.

=]

Mags
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 02:37:14 PM
Hi Gyula.

I am confused, i understand the function of the freewheel diode but not how to implement it.

I don't understand how i would connect diodes in parallel with my series-connected coils, of whiuch there are four now.

Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 02:49:59 PM
Hi Mags, thanks, sometimes i have a really hard time seeing the bleeding obvious !

I still don't think i get it so here is a picture of what i tried, what am i doing wrong ?
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 02:54:50 PM
Think i got it !

You mean like this, i will try it now :
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 02:56:26 PM
WOW !

Thanks Mags what a simple but effective little trick, who invented that ?

I've only done it to one coil and i've got 1432 RPM instead of 1417 RPM with the same current draw.

Luckily i have exactly three more 1N4001's ! I will stik them all on then post results.

Thanks Gyula too :)

**EDIT ADD**

OK the first one i tried was on the last (4th) coil in the series and as i say above it was good.

The second one i tried, in the 3rd coil in the series, i got less RPM for the same current draw.

I added a third diode to the second coil in the series and things slowed down dramatically and my current draw doubled.

I have checked all the diodes and re-checked the coils and all are functioning.

I have also tried them one at a time and the only one to give any gain is the last coil in the series.

The 3rd coil slows it down, the 2nd coil nothing changes !

One thing i've noticed, the coil that performs well with the flyback diode (the 4th coil in the series) is about two-thirds of the thickness of the other three, would that make a difference ?

What could be the problem here ?


Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on July 05, 2011, 06:10:49 PM
DeepCut, you do not need diode for each coil when they are in series.
If diode is a bit underpowered you can put multiple in parallel.
Also making all coils as similar as possible would be good practice.
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 05, 2011, 06:15:59 PM
Im at lunch

So I assume you have all the diodes facing the same direction in the circle of coils. If some are wrong, the drive current will go through the diode and not the coil, thus increasing current and slowdown.

If all are correct, then I suspect some diodes are shorted.

I am doing this as we speak, with 3 coils in series and 6A diodes(RS) across each coil and I get the increase with each and no problems.  You can try 1 diode across all coils as a whole, but the diode may have to endure higher voltages.

I suspect you have a few bad diodes or the current/voltage limits of the diodes are being breached.

I can show a simple vid later after work.

I have no doubts that this works 100%   ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 06:40:40 PM
Thanks yss and Mags.

I tested the diodes and they are working and they are all the right way around, they all come up at around 700 on the multimeter diode test.

These are them :

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/surge/1N4004.pdf

Is the spec not good enough ?

I'm thinking since the only coil that works regardless of which diode i use is the coil with the least turns then maybe the others have too many turns on them ?

Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 05, 2011, 06:54:18 PM
Hmmm   

doesnt make sense..   I would very quickely try the other coils with the diode in the opposite direction, just for sake.  Do you have a pic of the setup so I can see when I get home later?   

If you dont get it , ill be back on this evening to see  what is up.
Are the coils that different from each other?

Something is strange..  My coils are beefy.  .44ohm 18awg 2.5in dia 1.75 thick  around 2mh  in series. I do the diodes when in parallel also..   

This is a way to get more to the rotor by using less than normal. We could capture the excess, but instead we are applying the extra into getting more motive force to the rotor that the gen will work with.  Its all about doing all we can to increase efficiency.  ;]




Mags
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 05, 2011, 07:55:11 PM
Three of the coils are 800 turns bifilar, trigger wire is finer than power wire, can't remember gauge maybe trigger around 0.25mm and power 0.35.

The fourth is about 600 turns of same.

My generator cores arrived today and they are the wrong bloody size, my fault, i was going on bolt diameter not shield diameter ...

Here is pic :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/setup.JPG

I have a callout so won't be back until 10pm.
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 05, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
Three of the coils are 800 turns bifilar, trigger wire is finer than power wire, can't remember gauge maybe trigger around 0.25mm and power 0.35.

The fourth is about 600 turns of same.

My generator cores arrived today and they are the wrong bloody size, my fault, i was going on bolt diameter not shield diameter ...

Here is pic :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/setup.JPG

I have a callout so won't be back until 10pm.

Hmm  maybe if trying the diodes in the other direction doesnt work, then maybe there is something up with bifi that this doesnt work...  dunno   I cant fathom why.

Mags
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: DeepCut on July 06, 2011, 01:06:38 AM
Ye i was thinking the same. I have a pound of the power wire i used on those coils left, tomorrow i will wind some coils with only that and make them all exactly the same.
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 06, 2011, 01:37:35 AM
Well   something simple to try.  Undo the bifi and run the coils separate strands in parallel.  If you only have 3, try those in unbifi mode, in series. 

Your power in will go up and rpm. But it gives you something to try with what you got.

Maybe you get over 2000 rpm. maybe more than .97w but then add the diodes. Just to see what you get as compared to before.  Be careful at any high rpms. At least goggles.   ;]

Was thinking, the possibility that the diodes kept the coil running too long, due to the config of the coil in this case.
If you have a scope and possible way to shorten the pulse to the bifi, its very posssible that you could use a lot less power and the freewheel has time to stop before the next mag comes and is not forcing the rotor in reverse, as would be if the coil is still spinning.

Sounds nuts, but if you have those diodes in the right way, it is very possible that the flywheel is going still, when the next mag is approaching and cause slow down. And higher current, cuz the thing is still spinnin, new current can flow more and easy from the source.  There is no git up lil doggie on the coil.  No impedance to kick into a gradual current increase.  Its already goin.  Gotta scope this if you can. 

This is all theory, but they are things, clues that you gave me, that I question, and these are possible answers.  ;]

Just to get some experience with it.   ;]

Im going to try some things while I have my coils up.

But try the parallel on the bifi's  If you have a way to lower the on time, this will reduce input. Then diodes. I suggest 600v n up and probably a couple amps to try.

Mags
Title: Re: Why do two drive coils draw less power and create more RPM ?
Post by: Magluvin on July 06, 2011, 01:47:45 AM
When I said undo the bifi, I just mean to undo the ends that make them series strands and make them parallel.
If its not a hassle.  ;]   may even lower the in V.

It will give you an idea of how much you will save on input as compared to a simple pulse situation.

Now would ya think that you are getting more out of the motor if the freewheel diode allows additional push on the rotor that the input pulse alone?  Im not saying its free, yet ;], but its something that just gets wasted otherwise. 
Mags