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Author Topic: Water and gravity: look at this video  (Read 23334 times)

sm0ky2

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2022, 04:53:44 PM »
Hi Sm0ky2,

Very clever design in your video!  Would you be willing to share more specifically how you envision moving the solenoid back and forth with minimal energy expenditure?  That solenoid is going to have to compress a fair amount of the air to increase the pressure enough to get the cartesian diver to overcome the resistance in the sprocket/chain mechanism. 

PS  I've enjoyed reading all your posts on this thread.  BTW, do you have any thoughts on the Plankz Buoyancy Engine?


Yes so:


Of course there are efficiency improvements that could be made:
For example we could reduce friction by using a belt/pulley system,
with a nylon or similar water-resistant belt, and the upper pulley fixed to
the drive shaft.


The compression mechanism itself, wether an electric solenoid is used, or
something like a linear motor, etc.:  is synonymous to a spring.
In that the energy used to compress the gas is returned upon decompression.
Reducing the energy input, essentially to frictional losses. This is Key.


The precise amount of compression required is a factor of the volume of buoyant gas
in the upper (flexible) portion of the bobber, the coefficient of the flexible material,
and the mass-ratio for the desired output energy.


This is a volumetric compression ratio based on the mass of displaced water between
the compressed and expanded states. The greater the compression ratio: the “heavier”
the bobber becomes during the non-buoyant stage, and the more gravitational force is
imparted onto the bobber as it falls. The same applies to the buoyant force, when the gas expands.


Height of the container provides a longer cycle-time, meaning the force acts on the drive shaft for
a longer period of time, each half-cycle, for (roughly) the same compression force. (+in / -out)
The important thing to take away from this is the fact that energy in and energy out (at the solenoid),
balance each other out. The output energy obtained at the drive shaft is purely gravitational.
(minus system losses)


P.S.:
My examination of Plank’s ideas, the best attempts i have seen use a compressed gas,
introduced beneath the water chamber. This removes the loss of water
 (which, is my understanding of the technical problems in Plank’s original design)
I have NOT given this situation a full analysis, in terms of the energy required to compress
the air, beyond the pressure exerted on the bottom of the water tank, in comparison to the
Buoyant force obtained over the height of the water column. However, in practical applications
this seems to require more energy in, than out.
If i were to make an attempt at this, i would use flexible (expandable) vessels to harness the
compressed air, thereby regaining some of the pressure at the top side. There are of course technical
difficulties in terms of valves, etc. to make such a thing possible.








MT

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2022, 11:04:29 PM »
I’m open to any opposing theories, constructive criticism,
Or idea that could advance this area of science.


Here’s another gravity engine i  designed


https://youtu.be/jv9lQVZ4tUM


Hi sm0ky2
like your idea, have even believed in it for a while but I see a problem with retrieving back energy inputted in solenoid. As diver sinks deeper, air cap is further compressed by water pressure. At the bottom acts on air cap not only pressure exerted by solenoid but also whole water column above diver. This means air cap has smaller volume than it had at the top. Smaller air cap volume means water level is lower than it was when diver was at the top. And lower water level means less pressure which means less energy pushing solenoid back to initial position.


MT

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2022, 11:15:54 PM »
To better illustrate issue with this design:


1. bottle has initial pressure P1 of the air above the water.
2. Solenoid increases that pressure to P2
3. Diver loses buoyancy and descent to bottom
4. Hope you see that air cap on diver is exposed to higher pressure at the bottom than it was on top
5. Less air cap volume causes water level to drop causing air pressure in the top of bottle to drop to P3


I think as P3 is less then P2 we cannot fully retrieve energy inputted to solenoid.





kolbacict

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2022, 06:49:06 AM »

As diver sinks deeper, air cap is further compressed by water pressure. At the bottom acts on air cap not only pressure exerted by solenoid but also whole water column above diver. This means air cap has smaller volume than it had at the top. Smaller air cap volume means water level is lower than it was when diver was at the top.
If we take two divers in one aquarium. And connect them mechanically with the necessary interaction.
When one sinks and contracts, the other will rise and expand. The water level at the top will not change. 8)

Beginners Mind

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2022, 07:19:34 AM »
Sm0ky2 - Thanks for your reply.  Not withstanding the further comments about possible problems recapturing energy from the solenoid, I'm still puzzled how nearly all the energy powering a solenoid in this situation can be theoretically recaptured.  The plunger would need to be held either in or out, depending on the solenoid's orientation, for a period of time during which there will be I^2R losses in the coil that can't be recaptured, won't there?  Please correct my thinking if I misunderstand.  Thx.   

MT

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2022, 07:58:07 AM »
If we take two divers in one aquarium. And connect them mechanically with the necessary interaction.
When one sinks and contracts, the other will rise and expand. The water level at the top will not change. 8)
Nice try  :)  but not sure you can easily workaround it. If solenoid is engaged in one aquarium then both of them will be sinking.

kolbacict

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2022, 02:18:36 PM »
And how do German "rosсh" installations known work?
Or they don't work?

Willy

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2022, 06:22:58 PM »
The capacity for compression, of the Cartesian diver, can be limited to a maximum by its design.

Even so, the amount of energy required to re- expand the diver increases with any increase
in the depth of its dive. This is because at greater depths, greater pressure exists outside the
diver.

Nice try  :)  but not sure you can easily workaround it. If solenoid is engaged in one aquarium
then both of them will be sinking.


Two tanks would then be required and instead, a pressure sealed axle passes through and between
the two tanks. Two mechanically linked, insert able pistons and cylinders (one for each aquarium),
would then be required.

kolbacict

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2022, 08:11:52 PM »
Two tanks would then be required and instead, a pressure sealed axle passes through and between
the two tanks. Two mechanically linked, insert able pistons and cylinders (one for each aquarium),
would then be required.
Yes, there are maybe many options.
But It seems to me that if such serious people as Rosch did not succeed, if this is a fake, then there is nothing to look for in this direction.

sm0ky2

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2022, 12:56:11 PM »

Hi sm0ky2
like your idea, have even believed in it for a while but I see a problem with retrieving back energy inputted in solenoid. As diver sinks deeper, air cap is further compressed by water pressure. At the bottom acts on air cap not only pressure exerted by solenoid but also whole water column above diver. This means air cap has smaller volume than it had at the top. Smaller air cap volume means water level is lower than it was when diver was at the top. And lower water level means less pressure which means less energy pushing solenoid back to initial position.


Yes you are correct. The ratio at which this changes is (approx) 880 milligrams per cubic centimeter
of air volume differential between the upper and lower maximum.
Therefore, there is a maximum height at which the weight of the water column begins to affect
the ability to decompress the air volume. This is one of the maximum system parameters.
And is defined by the elasticity of the flexible part of the bobber. (spring constant)


The compression method must match the decompression capacity.


 

sm0ky2

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2022, 12:57:55 PM »
If we take two divers in one aquarium. And connect them mechanically with the necessary interaction.
When one sinks and contracts, the other will rise and expand. The water level at the top will not change. 8)


Pressure in a sealed vessel is equal throughout the vessel
One cannot sink while the other rises

sm0ky2

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2022, 01:05:39 PM »

Two tanks would then be required and instead, a pressure sealed axle passes through and between
the two tanks. Two mechanically linked, insert able pistons and cylinders (one for each aquarium),
would then be required.


I like this idea:


Working pressure from one chamber acts on the pressure in the opposing chamber
In this method, it may be possible to have a tandem system.


In such: the decompression energy from one chamber could add to the compression energy of the other, thereby lowering the energy required to compress the air.
The equilibrium state would be approx half-compression in both.
The piston would only have to half-compress either chamber while energy is extracted from both.
Hmm ;)

sm0ky2

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2022, 01:07:25 PM »
Yes, there are maybe many options.
But It seems to me that if such serious people as Rosch did not succeed, if this is a fake, then there is nothing to look for in this direction.


The mathematics implies that there is significant energy that could be extracted.


Remember with solar and wind: our early designs were far less efficient than the ones in use today.


Also:  the failures of one group bears little on the successes of another.
Regardless of how serious or well funded the one may be.

sm0ky2

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2022, 01:11:53 PM »
And how do German "rosсh" installations known work?
Or they don't work?


Not sure if i have a reference to their work.
Is this the “rosch” type device?


https://youtu.be/8Zenn0VD2Bo


If so:  this is one of the compressed air powered Plank’s Engines.

sm0ky2

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Re: Water and gravity: look at this video
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2022, 01:21:26 PM »
Sm0ky2 - Thanks for your reply.  Not withstanding the further comments about possible problems recapturing energy from the solenoid, I'm still puzzled how nearly all the energy powering a solenoid in this situation can be theoretically recaptured.  The plunger would need to be held either in or out, depending on the solenoid's orientation, for a period of time during which there will be I^2R losses in the coil that can't be recaptured, won't there?  Please correct my thinking if I misunderstand.  Thx.


In practice, a true electric solenoid may be impractical.
This was used mostly as an analog. A mechanical gearing system or spring based system, or even pneumatic systems may be more feasible for the compression/decompression mechanism.


To actually recover the energy using an electric solenoid would result in great electrical losses do to the decompression rate being rather slow.