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Author Topic: Trawoeer Power Pyramid Version 12 - Electrical output from a homemade pyramid  (Read 528262 times)

Offline neptune

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@Pascuser. I am sure that Ben will give us the measurements when he gets the parts . I would say that the large copper tube is definitely 29-30 mm because you can tell this just by comparing it to the plastic tube on the video . Also on video number two , compare it to the small 10 mm tube . It is obviously about 3 times bigger rather than 2 times . If you can not get adapters of the correct length or diameter , you may need to find someone with a lathe to modify them . I hope this helps .
     Another thought I had . The walls of the pyramid do not just act as a reflector . If they did , then the reactor would still work  with different sizes of pyramid , just as you can use a bigger satelite dish with the same LNB[ the bit that sits at the focal point} I think that the inside of the pyramid acts as a resonant cavity , and the size of the reactor has to match the resonant frequency of this cavity . Just a theory .

Offline Pascuser

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@neptune
Thanks for your informations. I yet noticed the same thing in a previous pots: capacitor and coil are in my mind tuned to a frequency that is characteristic of the pyramid size. So I will calculate mine to have a product LxC that will be half of the one Thomas had. To calculate this I need all measurements (wire diameter, insulation diameter, I can find the dielectric material, etc) to adapt to a small scale.

Another thing to measure: the wire. Thomas said it is 1.5mm diameter but the only thing I can find everywhere is 1.5mm², this is a surface and not the same. We have 1.5mm² or 2.5mm² in all shops for lectric wire, with a single wire.

So I suggest that it is 1.5mm² and not 1.5mm in diameter. Then if it is the case, you have a wire diameter with insulation of 2.5mm (I measured it in various shops for 1.5mm² copper wire inside).

Offline neptune

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It is obvious that Thomas went to a lot of trouble to make videos . But it is almost impossible to make 3 hours of video without slight mistakes , or leaving something out . It is a good thing we have Ben , who in time will resolve all the very small details . If we draw the wiring diagram as a schematic , it can be seen that the inner and outer reactor coils are in series [most likely series adding ] and the copper tubes and sand cause it to have increased self capacitance . The capacitor [which consists of a sort of bifilar coil ] is connected in parallel with the reactor coils . So the whole thing becomes a parallel tuned circuit . What would be very useful if someone who gets a reactor built to close specification could measure its resonant frequency with a Grid dip oscillator , or a scope and signal generator . Also , on his website Thomas says he he will give a formula to calculate the reactor for other pyramid sizes . I am not sure if he has shown it yet , but we know it exists .I would guess that the resonant frequency of the reactor is between 10 and 20 Mhz.That is just a guess.A Rough estimation of the wire diameter measured to include the insulation . Looking at the video , we know the distance on the inner copper tube between the 2 holes , and we know the number of turns . Simple mathematics .

Offline Pascuser

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Looking at the video , we know the distance on the inner copper tube between the 2 holes , and we know the number of turns . Simple mathematics .

I can't have this distance; only and idea approximately. About 27cm I think with videos, but nothing exact.

Thomas gave much and I don't criticize at all, he did a great work. There is some small lacks to have an identical replication.

Thomas said calculations formulae would be given but as he said he had to test it; so he hasn't it yet. And with the bad news of non working adaptation with US norm tells us that these formulas doesn't yet exist. It's research and everything can't be given like on a plate. This seems normal; and one times more i don't criticize. But if we can have precise measurements; and the resonant frequency as you suggest it would help to make our work with it too!

Offline nul-points

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hi all

please excuse the following 'damn fool' questions - i have a quota of them to fulfill, so i can justify my position as resident damn fool

has anybody asked to see, on video, a clearly-derived scope trace and  DVM reading of the unloaded and then resistive-loaded o/p voltage from this Giza?

if not, what convincing argument is produced to explain why these are not forthcoming?

seriously now, this is not a criticism - it is a valid technical query

if this data exists, could someone please provide a link?

many thanks
np


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Offline neptune

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@nul-points . If you go on youtube and search for TT`s channel [nanotec99`s channel] and look through the videos , there is one of an oscilloscope trace . Little info is given about it , at least in English . A trace of
the machine unloaded is unlikely as Thomas says that disconnecting the motor  will kill the effect and necessitate re electrifying the sand .

Offline nul-points

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@nul-points . If you go on youtube and search for TT`s channel [nanotec99`s channel] and look through the videos , there is one of an oscilloscope trace
[...]

thanks Mr N!  i'll go and have a look

Offline nul-points

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@nul-points . If you go on youtube and search for TT`s channel [nanotec99`s channel] and look through the videos , there is one of an oscilloscope trace
[...]
A trace of the machine unloaded is unlikely as Thomas says that disconnecting the motor  will kill the effect and necessitate re electrifying the sand .



the fan and the car lamp, shown as loads powered by the 'reactor' in tutorial video #13, are both presumably 12V DC parts?


i'm guessing that you don't get to be a licensed Radio Ham without knowing a thing or two about constructing and testing electronic equipment

so i find myself asking 'why is the inventor just showing us a scope trace of decayed ringing which occurs after a pulse?'

he doesn't show the pulse - he doesn't show the DC supply voltage offset on which the ringing occurs

he must certainly know exactly what he is, and what he isn't, showing us - i find that fact more interesting than the scope trace


also, there must have been a point in the setup just before the fan was connected?  i would have thought that would be a suitable point to show the o/p state of the 'reactor'?

or is the inventor saying that the fan must be connected whilst the 'reactor' gets charged up? 


don't break any coathangers in half, yet, Mr Neptune!

np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

Offline k4zep

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Hi All,

There are not any damn fool questions, only damn fool answers.  I have a lot of questions too but I'm going to follow the build by rote
method and when I get some output, I'll damn sure measure it and know exactly what it is pronto.  I know there is a pack of questions about inductance, AC, DC, purpose and specifications of exciter motor, that single scope shot, tuned cavity vs. resonant reactor, DC from an AC circuit with NO rectification, size, turns, length, etc.  I'll try and find out the answers, when I'm sure, I'll speak.  I am NOT going to spew forth what I think about it as we all have our pet theories.  I will show what is real and exact when I can.  Anyone else doing this I hope will do the same.  I know we have some excellent engineers, technicians, builders both mechanical and electronic out there on this and other list.  There are some I know more competent than myself, but I hope I can provide the "spark", and a small bit of guidance to keep the "herd" all going in the right direction with the artist and builder Thomas. 

Again, folks, be patient, I just didn't have time to do any work on it today except to find out my #16 TW wire was too large and only allowed me 77 turns on a trial inner tubing. I also ordered a couple more things on Ebay for shop stock.   I to have ask myself EVERY question I have see and heard (and a few more) since the list started.  None of the questions are without merit but ALL IN DUE TIME.  The only questions I will ask of Thomas is pertaining on HOW to build it to keep this the give and take to a reasonable level.  That is the first step.  Later we can develop a model as to HOW and possibly WHY it works when we have one or more working units. 

I have the worlds smallest but well equipped shop. Between the closet where I think and work, the desk where I "talk" to all of you and the storeroom where I keep equipment not in use, I have most everything covered.  Years of scrounging, buying off Ebay for pennies on the dollar have come to this.  The shop scope is an excellent FLUKE PM3394B, a few years old but a damn good 4 channel scope. Assorted pulse/waveform generators, power supplies, drawers of meters, HV probes, HV power supplies AC and DC, list goes on and on. WHEN I get measurable output, I will buy a portable battery operated scope to look at the isolated output real time and will also buy whatever else it takes to document and understand the process. 

A mechanic is only as good as his tools and an inquisitive experimenter is only as good as his tools and his abilities to use them after a certain point.  The most important tool is the brain and using it in a constructive manner.  Think, Think, Think. What ever it takes, it will be done.  IF I don't know the answer to what I see, I'll either put a video up on YouTube or a series of pictures here for all to analyze.  In the arena we are working, many inquisitive and constructive thinking heads are better than one.   

Just remember, this technology is thousands of years old.   Unlocking old technology and the secrets of the past is a painstaking business of electronic/electrical archeology and the last thing we want to do is get sidetracked on a basic error in theory or understanding.    So I guess I must crawl before I walk.  All I ask is that we do this together.  At some point, I expect to see the younger, brighter and more mental nimble than myself to get up and run away with it!!!  Then my job will be finished!

Remember, it is easy to "speak" with authority, but to show why your have the authority to speak  is  much more difficult!

That is all.

Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP

Offline nul-points

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[...]
 that single scope shot
[...]
DC from an AC circuit with NO rectification
[...]
The most important tool is the brain and using it in a constructive manner.  Think, Think, Think
[..]
In the arena we are working, many inquisitive and constructive thinking heads are better than one.   
[...]
the last thing we want to do is get sidetracked on a basic error in theory or understanding
[...]
Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP


hi Ben

i'm glad that you're to be the one who champions this for the thread because i know that you have the right mix of construction ability, experience - and doggedness!  :)

you remember we discussed your findings when you added the gen coil/FWBR/cap o/p from your MD rep to the PSU?  i was just thinking about that again, before i saw your latest post here, i feel that test you did was very important, and i'm trying to think around it and see if there's more we can learn from it, to help us all move forward


so i hope you will respect my concerns about the only scope trace i've seen so far on the Pyramid device

is that video which shows the scope trace the basis for saying that the o/p is AC?  or is there some other evidence?

you mention 'single' scope shot - did you mean the video as a whole, or is there a single photo somewhere?  please link, if the latter

you see, my concern is that the scope is not showing the WHOLE picture - what i see there is the 'ringing' part of a trace, immediately following a pulse

in fact, sometimes the scope trigger just catches more of the pulse (but not the whole) and you can see briefly a larger pk-pk (but narrower) damped wave at the LHS of the display

i don't believe that the scope is 'zoomed out' enough on the full waveform to show either the pulse, or the DC level on which the subsequent ringing sits

my concern is that the inventor must know this - and yet, unless you know different, this seems to be the only data we're being shown - why?

an AC signal can certainly be present - and useful - in some systems, even if there's no explicit rectification circuitry, but my strong feeling from seeing that trace is that the AC we're seeing there is superimposed on a DC component

it's not unreasonable FOR US to ask for a clear picture of what WE are being asked to accept - and recreate

it could be just a misunderstanding that we don't yet have a better picture of important features

but if the inventor persists in allowing ambiguous, or incomplete, information to remain, THEN my alarm bells start to ring!

i really hope that there IS more - and clearer - info available, OR that the inventor will provide such

hopefully you'll be able to put my mind at ease!  :)

you're doing a great job, as always - keep it up!
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

Offline Trawoeger

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@all:
Oh Lord... Please to all, calm down, and save the space here for useful comments!
I don´t want to create some kind of religion here, because we have plenty of them (and maybe there is some useful religion out there)

Well, I want so say it clear: I am not the well donated Scientist, I am a fully normal Guy and I made all my experiments in a manner of "Try and Error"
That´s why I am not the best in Explaining of Functions, and I am not the inventor of Scopes, I am the amateur User.

That´s why I can´t serve you all the Details on the golden Dish, and that´s why I am on such Forums like this.
(I am here to find answers and partners wich can give this)

I dont want to create some partys between believers and non- believers, and I don´t want to animate anybody to invest in building a Pyramide.

Now I had personal Contact to Ben K4ZEP and we will make this Project now to proof the basic Function.
On the other Side, FREIGEIST in Germany received my first Parts (reactor) and i hope to get som results in near time.
Next week, i can send my package to Ben, and I will guide him till the moment, we can proof the System in FL too.

After this is done, we can discuss whole nights to increase the Harvest, but now, we have to do our Basics.

That means, Now it is not useful to speak about the function-principe, now it´s useful NOT to nerve the two constructors in germany and FL  ::)  (Sorry Ben, I told you, it will not become easy, to be the Guy in US...)

Both constructors will give you all proven results from they own hands, and then you can do with this work, whatever you want to do.
But I think nobody will keep anybody by hand as a small child.

"If you want to win a war, you have to think about your risk"
Nice greetings, Tom

PS. Yes I am a HAM, but to become a HAM you have not to study Electronic or Physics ( in this case, HAM´s would be extinct)

Offline neptune

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Maybe it is time for someone with better computer skills than me to start a general discussion thread , and leave this thread strictly for technical stuff .That will take pressure away from the people who matter . I think Thomas might agree , that while a Ham license is not a degree in Physics , it does show a basic understanding of electronics and circuits .

Offline energia9

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@all:
Oh Lord... Please to all, calm down, and save the space here for useful comments!
I don´t want to create some kind of religion here, because we have plenty of them (and maybe there is some useful religion out there)

Well, I want so say it clear: I am not the well donated Scientist, I am a fully normal Guy and I made all my experiments in a manner of "Try and Error"
That´s why I am not the best in Explaining of Functions, and I am not the inventor of Scopes, I am the amateur User.

That´s why I can´t serve you all the Details on the golden Dish, and that´s why I am on such Forums like this.
(I am here to find answers and partners wich can give this)

I dont want to create some partys between believers and non- believers, and I don´t want to animate anybody to invest in building a Pyramide.

Now I had personal Contact to Ben K4ZEP and we will make this Project now to proof the basic Function.
On the other Side, FREIGEIST in Germany received my first Parts (reactor) and i hope to get som results in near time.
Next week, i can send my package to Ben, and I will guide him till the moment, we can proof the System in FL too.

After this is done, we can discuss whole nights to increase the Harvest, but now, we have to do our Basics.

That means, Now it is not useful to speak about the function-principe, now it´s useful NOT to nerve the two constructors in germany and FL  ::)  (Sorry Ben, I told you, it will not become easy, to be the Guy in US...)

Both constructors will give you all proven results from they own hands, and then you can do with this work, whatever you want to do.
But I think nobody will keep anybody by hand as a small child.

"If you want to win a war, you have to think about your risk"
Nice greetings, Tom

PS. Yes I am a HAM, but to become a HAM you have not to study Electronic or Physics ( in this case, HAM´s would be extinct)

Thomas, just 2 simple questions and i need a simple answer,
if you are a Ham operator,  did you check if your pyramid works in a faraday cage?  or did you try to switch off your houses electricity inlcuding your ham equipment? if you havent it might well be the case that you have not took this to account,   because i made LC coils  which drew  energy inside the house from the mains, i could light little lamps and run little motors with it,   i had to ask this question as you have not said anything about this.
Thank you friend

Offline k4zep

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Thomas, just 2 simple questions and i need a simple answer,
if you are a Ham operator,  did you check if your pyramid works in a faraday cage?  or did you try to switch off your houses electricity inlcuding your ham equipment? if you havent it might well be the case that you have not took this to account,   because i made LC coils  which drew  energy inside the house from the mains, i could light little lamps and run little motors with it,   i had to ask this question as you have not said anything about this.
Thank you friend

Good Morning Energia,

I doubt very seriously that Thomas has a Faraday cage or one he can transport, set up and test over one of the working locations without an immense amount of time and money and work.  Cages that size where he can work inside are HEAVY, bulky, expensive, etc.  I know, I worked in one off and on over the years in VHF radio repair work and calibration.   External or internal to the the reactor, it would not appear we are working with conventional RF waves, just my opinion based on NOTHING yet. 

In our conversations, he has mentioned that it does work outside.  Remember in the video, at the very end he showed a 20-30 watt load on the pyramid.  In my past experience I have never recovered that amount of energy from ground currents or ambient RF around me.  That was the "hook" that pulled me in......Oh, switching off the house electric is a good test if you like working in the dark and working with a flashlight and is a viable question. It would be a pain, resetting the clocks, the microwave, the TV's, DVR's, etc., but all for science, right?   Please just be patient, I won't forget any of these questions and when we get a working unit, I'll try and test each and every question......I can't speak for Thomas, if he wants to answer the questions, that is his concern.  FIRST, let us get a working unit, then we can try to understand the process as to how it works!!!!  Remember Thomas Edison tried approximately 1000 different materials to get a working lamp, and they said he was a genius!  What Tesla said was probably not quotable.

Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP

Offline hartiberlin

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Hi Ben,
nice replication work so far.

Have you already located a water leyline near where you live ?

Some folks on the german overunity.de forum said it would probably
work on the RF frequencies that come out of the earth at these places from some kind
of corona discharges...
So it would be required to tune to the exact resonance frequency.
So it would be also interesting to test to use instead of the bifilar capacitor coil
to use a variable capacitor, so you could tune it much more easily or
add this at the end of the coil, so you can change the capacity on the fly.

Looking forward to your replications results.

Good luck and happy greeting from Norway from my vaccation.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hartiberlin

for some inspiration from nature ... ;)