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Author Topic: Muller dynamo thread short format  (Read 12388 times)

Offline Tudi

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Muller dynamo thread short format
« on: June 21, 2011, 11:08:53 AM »
I'm trying to contribute the only way i can : practicing my copy paste skills. If i forgot something or made a mistake pls bump the thread and i will correct it
People that you should pay attention : RomeroUK( knows a lot but likes to force you to learn rather then explain), Bolt( can soak up theory fast and good ), Jdo300( both practical and theoretical background ), zerofosilfuel( never seen him do deep explanations, but he's actions say a lot ), lidmotor( he knows to explain things in human way), Khabe( has the ability to convince you in 3 words why this device will never work, 90% troll though )....
People replicating and managed to get to first step at least : RomeroUK, scratchrobot, keykhin, Thaelin, toranarod, penno64, k4zep, mariuscivic ...lots of others
Best thing is to read the whole huge thread ( over 200 pages now ) to make sure i did not skip any detail written there.

Quick resume :
- Romerouk made a thread about muller dynamo. Not sure what you thought it is about, or how you interpret it, but the main content of the thread is speedup under load
- OU does not mean you create energy. No point of searching for energy conservation laws. Your solar pannel or your avarage heat pump is considered an OU device. You are getting more output then input. Most of the time you cannot directly loop these devices.
- Achieving OU is not something that happens every day. Be prepared that you will fail 99.9% unless you manage to get the point why it should work.
- Romerouk stated that you should try to build a dynamo and not a motor
- Romerouk stated that you should build an efficient device. Both dynamo and motor. Don't neglect small gain, they add up in the end
- Bill Muller spent most of he's life to optimize he's dynamo. If you spent few hours on youtube doesn't mean you are already ahead of everyone. Try to read he's teaching, but most important try to understand it.
- you do not need to build a Muller dynamo. You can start with a cheap way to move a magnet in front of a coil and tune that. Once you are happy, move on. There no hardcoded setup, the effect does not rely on the layout of the device but the combination of the parameters ( canceling effects at the right time, delayed feedback effect, perfect delay of feedback that might produce beneficial effect...)
- you should design your device to be able to adjust RPM and maintain RMP no matter of the output or other external effect
- Your first step is to search for the speedup under load effect. You can get this with proper adjusting of coil magnet distance ( i need to get more info on this, got lost in the theories )
- your second step is to use magnets behind coil. This has a whole theory behind it. You will need to find a sweet spot for the magnet to help the coil restore it's neutral state faster. Put an iron washer to guide your magnetic flux of this magnet in a way to cover aprox 1/4 part of your coil. This will make your rotor speed up or just reduce your input power. This is an optimization step.
- There are multiple patents and devices that seem to be based on similar principle to achieve OU. Again, replicating an OU device tends to be impossible most of the case. Most of the time the explanation seems to break some laws and you will try to avoid exactly what is supposed to help you. You are probably searching for a hazard effect that in general people try to avoid having ( random , self amplifying oscillation for example )
- There are still speculations why this device is capable to OU. The most plausable one is given by bolt : You separate reactive power from active power. ( see next section for details )
- ZPE theory is used everywhere just because it sounds cool enough. Let's not forget that it is more theory then practical at this moment.
- some say your perfect osciloscope wave should look like a Kromrey converter output. I personally think that the power you can extract is proportional to the surface delimited by your wave. The smaller the surface the smaller is the feedback from your coil to your rotor so you will get a speedup( not good ). Do not mistake I and V osciloscope shot !
- i personally think you should not be happy when you get a speedup under load, you just managed to get your fine tuned device go untuned. When you add your second coil your first coil will work out of resonance. This is why you need to be able to maintain RPM. High RPM is good, but not a variable RPM.
- almost everyone tends to confuse energy, power, I, V. You ultimate goal is energy, you can approximate your gain using power ( watts ). Almost all OU devices are simple measurement errors. Try to not fall into this trap when you try to patent it :)
- try to not forget you are searching for OU and not chasing big numbers. High RPM leads to high voltage and power. But will probably decrease the conversion efficiency also of the input to output. You might not observer a COP = 1.1 if your input / output factor is just 30%, your total output will get only 33% from 30% from input.
- be prepared to have insane patience. We tend to make large changes to our devices and expect to be a small one. Add a bit of wire, extra component and you might need to remake all your tests to see it's effect. The number of combinations are limitless if you have no clue what you are looking for.

Bolt active - reactive power theory : You copy reactive power device state( from PM to coil + capacitor ) and try to NULL out active power state of the device ( bucking coils )
- To separate active and reactive power you will need to maximaze the V and I phase out by the maximum 90 degrees.
- Maximum phase difference happens at resonance. You can create this state with a proper capacitor (or perfect coil conditions that is really hard to get )
- your resonance state happens for a specific circuit setup. Changing anything to it will lower your tuneup.
- you will probably need to have a multi state circuit.
          - copy reactive power to your coil
          - just when I would catch up with coil. Dump the state of the coil to a second cap
          - try to cancel active power drag that happens between coil and permanent magnet ( lenz ). Some do this using bucking coils, other short the coils, increase magnet distance, use magnet on the back to create a dead zone, anything to avoid lenz effect.

from Jdo300 :
Nice replications you have there! But as others have stated, I don't think you will see the full benefit of the AC capacitor until you tune the value to match the equivalent frequency of the induced EMF in your generator coils. Though it is encouraging to see that the HF ringing created by the capacitor can reduce the load on your motor, the tuning is absolutely critical to really get the benefit. The simple way to determine the capacitance you need is to simply rework the standard LC resonant frequency formula to solve for C based on the desired RPM of your motor:

C = 900 / [L * (Pi * Poles * RPM)^2]


C = Capacitance of the capacitor (In Farads)
L = Inductance of the generator coil (in Henries) (or coils if multiple coils are wired together)
Pi = Pi (p)
Poles = Number of magnets on your motor's rotor
RPM = RPMs that you will be tuning the coil to run at.

This formula is extremely useful for quickly determining the value of the tuning cap for your pulse motor. And since everyone here has different coils, motors and rotational speeds, you can all determine which cap value will work best for you based on your design's operating parameters.

For Example, for my pulse motor, my rotor has four magnets with two sets of coils on either side of the rotor. If I want to use one pair of coils as drivers and the other pair as the generator, I can do that.

In my case, the inductance of each of my coils is 1.1mH. So if I have the generator cois wired in series, that gives me 2.2 mH for the L value in the formula.

If I want to run my motor at, say, 6000 RPMs and tune for that speed, I can plug these values into the formula to calculate the capacitance, C, like so:

C = 900 / [0.0022 * (3.14159 * 4 * 6000)^2] = 71.97E-6 = 71.97 uF.

Remember, the whole point is to tune the motor to run at resonance, which creates the 90-degree phase shift between the voltage and current waveforms. In this state, the Power Factor is 0 (system is totally reactive), the VSWR is infinity, and you have no loading on the generator itself :-).

The 900 is just a constant from combining two equations together. The first one was the formula to convert RPMs into a frequency value, which is

f = RPM / 60.

But this equation assumes only one magnet rotating past the coil per cycle, so you add the "Poles" variable to increase the frequency. So:

f = (RPM / 60) * Poles

Then, I took the standard equation for LC resonance:

f = 1 / [2*Pi* Sqrt(LC)]

and solved it for C. Then after substituting in the RPM equation and simplifying terms, that's how I got the final formula with the 900 in the top.

ZPE theory :
- according to this theory your circuit has a very very precise state when it will start sucking energy from the vacum. Your whole device is considered just a focus point where the energy is getting converted
- as complicated this sounds it is a bit more easy in theory to make it happen
- you need specific circuit parameters like : L ( inductance ), R ( resistance ), C ( capacitance ) and a mechanical part that brings the device in resonance ( see similarity with bolt resonance ).
- at resonance your circuit will function in segments in functionality. There will be segments when you stack up the energy and there will be segments when you will have missing energy ( 2 waves with different speed, segmented will overlay at intervals... ). Due to the oscilating state of the circuit your capacitor will try to soak energy from the medium when your device enters the missing energy state and will add it to the state when you overlay the waves.
- before you get over excited the only person i heard managed to get 100pvolt usign a few sqaure meter sized capcaitor. In theory the energy source is "unlimited" and extraction can speed can be scaled.
- the biggest issue with ZPE is that any attempt to tap the energy will probably alter the sate of your circuit and break the perfect state ( heatup of wire changes resistance, feedback of the wire might change the RPM of the magnet... ). To counter this you will try to create sessions when you extract energy and try to reset the state of the device.

Practical advices for beginners :
- get a motor to drive a rotor ( someone used a pendulum, i find it a bit harder to make this properly work )
- your rotor could be for example a CD/DVD case
- mount some magnets on the rotor
- get a generator coil and try to mount it so the moving magnets will have a perpendicular motion to the wires of the coil. You can experiment with coil facing and you will notice less or more drag depending on the amount of flux will cross the wires.
- basic generator principle is that the amount of flux that crosses a wire generates higher voltage. The wider your wire is the more current can pass in it, as this wire requires more space you can choose if you wish to draw more current or voltage. If you aim to get voltage out of the coils and neglect the current then you probably want to have thick wire. Don't forget that you can convert potential difference to current if you wish later on.
- put a magnet on th back of the coil
- you can try to use a core for your coils. This will guide magnetic flux and will increase generator limits ( limit = more input to more output ). For some this step is complicated, you might skip it for first experiment.
- move your coil closer / further to find sweet spots. The further the coil from the magnet, the less voltage you can generate. There is a dead zone between the 2 magnets, try to move your coil in a way that it is not inside this dead zone, will help you reduce lenz drag.
- 1) you can extract both V and I if you short your coils at the maximum POWER point of your scope shot. Some say this extraction will not influence the rotor speed and that you can short it multiple times. See ismael aviso explanation about RPM / harmonics / resistance....
- 2) you can extract V if you create a phase difference between I and V. Charge a cap with V while there is no I. Dump V content to another cap. Try to get rid of I to avoid lenz drag.
- 3) some say due to speedup under load you have a small gain / gen coil. You can add additional coils to increase gain. Practice says it is really hard to add second gen coil. Theory says that mechanical energy conversion is divided between gen coils evenly.

There are countless reasons why this device should not work, if you just want to get convinced of that, go read a physics book and leave alone people who learn by building. Your main focus here is to learn and even if not this year, maybe next year build an OU device :)
Feel free to flame me, i'm too stupid to feel the pain xD
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 10:36:26 PM by Tudi »

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Offline romerouk

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Re: Muller dynamo thread short format
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 02:08:34 PM »
this is a nice and useful info that all people can benefit with their builds.
Useful in all devices and the rule number one is called PATIENCE.

Thank you,

Offline Tudi

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Re: Muller dynamo thread short format
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 02:11:11 PM »
this is a nice and useful info that all people can benefit with their builds.
Useful in all devices and the rule number one is called PATIENCE.

Thank you,
I thank you for giving meaning to my life in the past month. I haven't been so excited since years :D. No matter what comes next, the memory of the feeling will exist forever, i will try to hang on that to make next steps in my life.

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Re: Muller dynamo thread short format
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 02:11:11 PM »
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Offline scratchrobot

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Re: Muller dynamo thread short format
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 05:59:02 PM »
@Tudi, Thanks very much for putting all that info in one place, very useful   :)

@Romero, Thanks for rule number one, I have a lot off that  ;)


Offline Tudi

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Re: Muller dynamo thread short format
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 04:33:54 PM »
damn, for some reason i cannot edit my topic anymore. Wanted to remove K4zep drawing. Having the capacitor in parallel with the coil does not seem to be a good idea.

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Re: Muller dynamo thread short format
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 04:33:54 PM »
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Offline Tudi

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Re: Muller dynamo thread short format
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2011, 11:06:42 AM »
still can't edit my post. Wanted to add tips section :

Tips :
- adding permanent magnet to/near your motor will increase efficiency based on the position of it. Some say that after adding 2 magnets the 3rd one will decrease the gain. I think it is related to the number of poles of your motor
- adding magnet to a generator coil increases the efficiency. See the hysterisis curve screenshots
- having a large sized FWBR , the position of the FWBR can count a lot. Seen some videos where the voltage drop got almost half if positioned near a changing magnetic field
- you can parallel diodes to reduce voltage drop a bit. You can use this same principle with most NP doped silicon components. See above recommendation also. By using parallel diodes you are increasing NP contact surface and a magnetic field will further boost the voltage drop. You cannot reduce to 0 the voltage drop
- it is vital to not use a coil based power supply. Use a battery. There are cases when you loop back your grounding will not be 0 but a negative number. Coil based power supplies cannot accept negative ground.
- there are multiple capacitor types regarding dielectric materials. Some behave differently then others. Some say that size does matter. Let's not forget there are theories where a large size cap can be used to capture ambient energy. I'm not saying you should use a specific size. I'm saying you might want to try out different sizes.
- there are hundreds of transistor types. If you are using a specific one because XXX said so then try to find out why he was saying it. Maybe he also just heard about it. Maybe you should use another one with other properties.
- you can use doped silicon components for very low resistance transmission line. You can for example put 10 transistors in parallel to reduce R close to 0. You might need this for pure potential steal approaches.
- you can experiment a lot with magnet to coil distance changing. With right positioning you can get some interesting COP factors. Note that this refers to the input / output conversion rate and NOT the amount of input / output
- you should try to use an osciloscope to visualize BOTH I and V sine wave of the generator coils. Just see how the sinewaves change and watch your COP factor also. See what is helping you and try to focus on that.
- I seen some videos where people were using coil inside coil ( or even a 3rd coil ) as generator. One coil is aimed to give the speedup effect, the other one is trying to absorb this extra gain. You can have quite a few coil combinations if you want to insist on trying them all out ( you can wire 4 ways 2 coils in series )
- never forget your goal, you are aiming for the best COP factor and nothing else. Once you manage to get over COP=1 you should start thinking about understand why it happens and scale that effect
- always try to measure things in a way to be able to compare with previous experiments. Change 1 thing at a time, measure the effects, see if it was benefic, note down the benefic effects. If you change multiple things at once and try to compare it with other tests sooner or later you will get lost what you tried and what not.
- try to not get stuck on 1 idea only. Nobody documented properly how to get to COP = 1 in a way so others can reproduce it. So do not base everything on only 1 opinion. Instead see if gives a beneficial effect to your generator or not
- try to not forget that output voltage = number of wires crossed by magnetic flux ( with strength X ). You can put more number of wires or increase magnetic flux to increase output voltage. BUT be careful what you use this voltage. In case you need current also then you will need to use bigger wire (= reduce voltage) to not burn out your coils