Author Topic: Romero's experiments and OU principles (Read 122625 times)

energia9 · « **Reply #60 on:** June 14, 2011, 09:58:33 PM »

Quote from: romerouk on June 14, 2011, 09:20:24 PM

This can be built with one solid wire too but we need to use capacitors...
Below are pictures with some of the coils I am going to use in my new project, single wire. Not all are ready, more work to be done.

Hello friend, where can i get these small holeless ferrite beads in the uk? i have taken out 1 of the same one from an old pc powersuppliy, but, i have looked on ebay maplin and everywhere and i cant get them.. :S

EMdevices · « **Reply #61 on:** June 14, 2011, 10:09:58 PM »

Quote from: neptune on June 14, 2011, 08:51:13 PM

@EMdevices .That was a good solid post , full of wisdom ,but there is one point that needs consideration . You quote a frequency of5.76 kHz at 2400 RPM . However there is a sort of concensus that Romero`s machine worked at around 1200 RPM . So, a frequency of 2.88 KHz . Problem is , how did you arrive at that figure . There is a theory doing the rounds that the the "magnetic events" happening at a given coil happen at 8 times as often as would appear at first glance . This is due to even number of magnets and odd number of coils . If you did not factor this in , then frequency becomes 8x2.88 KHz or 23.04 KHz . and this does not take into account the possible importance of harmonics . So Litz might yet be beneficial . Your comments please?

I did a more complete mathematical analysis in the other tread, but I'll repeat the basic calculation here (assuming all 9 coils are generator coils).

1) As the rotor turns, every 5 deg of rotation a new magnet and coil align. (because 360/8 = 45 and 360/9 = 40, so 45-40 = 5 deg difference)

2) So, in one rotation of the rotor, 360/5 = 72 magnet-coil alignments take place ( these alignments have a higher velocity than the rotor, somebody posted an animated GIF file showing this phenomena, it's worth seeing.)

3) Each magnet-coil alignment produces 2 pulses, one positive and one negative, so 72*2 = 144 pulses per one revolution of the rotor. (because rectification doubles the frequency)

4) So at an RPM of 2400, we get: 144 * 2400/60 = 5760 pulses per second, or 5.76 kHz

This was just an example, I realize that he operated at much lower speeds when powered at 4.5 volts.

I agree with the harmonic principles, good point. However I will say that most of the energy is in the fundamental.

EM

neptune · « **Reply #62 on:** June 14, 2011, 10:25:38 PM »

@EMdevices . Absolutely spot on old chap! I am not the world`s best mathematician . However might I point out what may be a small mistake in your maths ? You say that as a magnet passes a coil , it causes 2 pulses ,one positive and one negative . You then proceed to calculate the number of pulses . However , in a Alternating current , one positive pulse followed by one negative pulse equals one cycle . So your final answer needs to be divided by 2 to give the correct frequency , being 2.88 Khz . I realise that this gives even more weight to your original argument against the necessity for litz . Also note the aRomero is using plain wire in his new project , albeit with a cap added . Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on the maths .
Doh ! just realised what you said about rectification doubling the frequency . Sorry .

EMdevices · « **Reply #63 on:** June 14, 2011, 10:28:18 PM »

(because rectification doubles the frequency)

neptune, did you notice the above sentance in my previous post? His FWBR rectifies the sine wave. these are pulses into the output capacitor from all the coils.

EM

P.S. Oh I just saw your edit. I'm glad you notice it, but good question none the less.

neptune · « **Reply #64 on:** June 14, 2011, 10:30:03 PM »

Sorry EM . Failed to spot that!

neptune · « **Reply #65 on:** June 14, 2011, 10:57:24 PM »

@Bolt . Many thanks for info re the permanent magnet motor mod . This is doable but would invove lathe work to arrange that the spinning mass is on 2 bearings . Big question is , is the result OU . 10 times the ouput is good , but what effect would this have on the input .

bolt · « **Reply #66 on:** June 14, 2011, 11:11:24 PM »

Quote from: neptune on June 14, 2011, 10:57:24 PM

@Bolt . Many thanks for info re the permanent magnet motor mod . This is doable but would invove lathe work to arrange that the spinning mass is on 2 bearings . Big question is , is the result OU . 10 times the ouput is good , but what effect would this have on the input .

The up to 10 times rating is the power handling factor of the motor converted to so a 1kw motor can become a 10kw generator as the power is shared over ALL phases as all times. So this is NOT the COP. I don't know is the answer my guess most of these things IF they work have a COP between 2 and 10 so lets settle for 5:) Half decent size motor driving at using 1kw should give like a 5Kw output. Yes it needs machine work for bearings etc but i'm told its VERY well worth the effort. Looping stuff is very difficult even if it has very good COP. Requires DC to AC inverters usually in the feedback path and some method to control the amount of energy going around the loop to run the driver. If you stick with all DC perhaps PWM can be used. Free Energy is not FREE typically you still looking at 2 bucks a watt building from scratch. "TOYS" probably cost more like 50 bucks a watt so it scales up cheaper:)

energia9 · « **Reply #67 on:** June 14, 2011, 11:23:55 PM »

so can anyone help me where to find these ferrites? am i being ignored?
thank you

lumen · « **Reply #68 on:** June 14, 2011, 11:24:37 PM »

I like the 5.76khz. 72 * 2400rpm/60 sec =2880 cps x2 because the FWB converts the negative transition to another positive transition.

No?

neptune · « **Reply #69 on:** June 14, 2011, 11:47:22 PM »

@energia9 . Please be patient , when the right person sees your question , someone will help you .
@EM devices and Lumen . Just had another think about this frequency thing . I think that what matters is the actual frequency of the AC in the coils rather than the frequency of the DC "ripple" after the bridge rectifier . So It is this AC frequency that will determine the need for litz . Or not . That is what I think . I would of course like to know what you think .

bolt · « **Reply #70 on:** June 14, 2011, 11:48:56 PM »

Quote from: EMdevices on June 14, 2011, 10:28:18 PM

(because rectification doubles the frequency)

neptune, did you notice the above sentance in my previous post? His FWBR rectifies the sine wave. these are pulses into the output capacitor from all the coils.

EM

P.S. Oh I just saw your edit. I'm glad you notice it, but good question none the less.

Perhaps you need to consider the frequency is on the AC side this is the bit that requires consideration. As the magnet passes you get one sine wave pulse so therefore this is the frequency of concern as it effects what the cap tuning capacitor value should be AND it determines the ideal core flux material to provide max permeability without saturation or eddy current losses. Whatever happens on the DC side is not so important except for impedance matching to desired load. IMO the frequencies we are going to be seeing here are best suited to Iron Powder Cores or metal alloys.

Magluvin · « **Reply #71 on:** June 15, 2011, 12:00:38 AM »

Quote from: energia9 on June 14, 2011, 09:58:33 PM

Hello friend, where can i get these small holeless ferrite beads in the uk? i have taken out 1 of the same one from an old pc powersuppliy, but, i have looked on ebay maplin and everywhere and i cant get them.. :S

You can find them on ebay as pre wound "inductors" and just remove the wire.

Mags

lumen · « **Reply #72 on:** June 15, 2011, 12:22:40 AM »

Anyone know if Romero used some special wind on his coils other than the wire used?
I didn't see any capacitors directly on his coils but wasn't something said about this also?

energia9 · « **Reply #73 on:** June 15, 2011, 12:33:28 AM »

Quote from: Magluvin on June 15, 2011, 12:00:38 AM

You can find them on ebay as pre wound "inductors" and just remove the wire.

Mags

sadly i did not find any small holeless rod types, anyway, I just saw a picture from Romerouk which had coils and iron powder inside, can you, Romerouk, confirm that your effect worked with iron powder, will you?
regardz

nul-points · « **Reply #74 on:** June 15, 2011, 12:43:36 AM »

Quote from: energia9 on June 14, 2011, 09:58:33 PM

Hello friend, where can i get these small holeless ferrite beads in the uk?
[...]
i have looked on ebay maplin and everywhere and i cant get them.. :S

...not quite 'everywhere'

Farnell sell them - i got some 20x6mm OD 4B1 ferrite rods from them (they have a few other sizes & grades also)

HTH
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

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