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Author Topic: Romero's experiments and OU principles  (Read 102653 times)

Offline redrichie

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2011, 02:44:45 PM »
Romero or all,
I remember you saying that rotor perfection is critical.  I also remember you saying to space your magnets and coils out equally.  Well due to the failure of my last experiment,  1 magnets width between each magnet is nowhere near enough. LOL.   would you please tell me what is your ideal magnet spacing/config for a given rotor?  Because in your newest and pre release vids the rotor you have has the magnets basically touching.  So im assuming that is a n/s config.  it gives an opposite pole between each magnet.  But if you had all one pole there wouldnt be any switching.

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2011, 02:44:45 PM »

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2011, 06:26:38 PM »
Is that what is in the HD that the magnets are on?

Better to use a dremel with a cutting wheel. You can get nice cuts with patients and not waste the material. ;]

I have been throwing away mumetal?

Hmm

Soo, if 2 ohm, then the coil is wound bifi, no separation of strands. The series connection is made on the coil itself somewhere. That will mean a rewind for some. I would try a couple first. ;]

Mags

Yes that is what I've been told and I checked it out with a little test and it does seem to shield the magnet field quite well.  It makes sense too if you think about it since the platters in a hard drive are sensitive to magnetism and there's that very strong Neo magnet in there. 

wings, thanks for the suggestion although that would run about $65 with shipping and what I've got here is free so I'll stick with this plan for now.  That does remind me though I've got a roll of something that looks a lot like that picture on ebay and it was in my alternate energy box but I can't remember what it is as I bought it probably 15 years ago when I was studying some of Bruce Perreault's energy info.  I'll have to look at it again as it's some sort of sheet metal with an odd feel to it. 

Offline lumen

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2011, 06:27:47 PM »
Could you increase the effective capacitance in a coil by winding the first layer of wire in the opposite direction of the remainder of the windings? This first layer is the most effective in controlling the field within the core.

 

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2011, 06:27:47 PM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2011, 06:33:28 PM »
From my notes at the time , Romero quoted the resistance of each coil as 1.7 to 2 ohms . Some one suggested on one of the threads to cause the coil to "ring" and use a scope to find its resonant frequency . We do not all have scopes . If someone with a scope can do this ,and tell us what the ideal resonant frequency is , there are easier cheaper ways to measure it . One way would be to connect the coil , with its added cap if any , into a one transistor radio frequency oscillator , and listen for it on a receiver . Or for those with radio tech experience , use a grid dip oscillator .
       If we work on one coil , or one coil pair at a time ,on the bench , with a means of measuring the frequency , we can tune it simply by winding it with too many turns , and remove turns until the frequency rises to the desired result .I favour the one-transistor-oscillator circuit method , and a receiver or frequency counter to measure the result .
EDIT . Maybe it will suffice to just adjust all coils to have the same frequency , as the ideal figure will be RPM dependent.

Well if I ever get around to winding some coils I can put it on my frequency generator and scope to find a resonant frequency.  That would also be interesting to see if there's a difference between ferrite and the Mu metal idea I'm thinking about. 

Offline romerouk

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2011, 06:58:35 PM »
Romero or all,
I remember you saying that rotor perfection is critical.  I also remember you saying to space your magnets and coils out equally.  Well due to the failure of my last experiment,  1 magnets width between each magnet is nowhere near enough. LOL.   would you please tell me what is your ideal magnet spacing/config for a given rotor?  Because in your newest and pre release vids the rotor you have has the magnets basically touching.  So im assuming that is a n/s config.  it gives an opposite pole between each magnet.  But if you had all one pole there wouldnt be any switching.
In a NN or SS config the spacing between the magnets is very important. we have a virtual pole in between the magnets but u can have 2 virtual poles too.
The recent video uses NS and that is different from my original build.I am trying to use single wire now with capacitors, this way is more easy, less tunning and does not require to take the coils out one thousand times.
What u see in the recent video is a new approach to be implemented in a new generator type I am building now.Until I have proof that it is working ok I will not post info about it as people will jump again to replicate and spend money.
Before release I will make sure I will have invited some people u all know here to confirm or deny it, of course, if I can make it again :)
Muller design as it is,  it's not a very efficient generator without all these tweaking.This new build will have a good eficiency before any tweaking, that should make my life easier.

Regards all,
Romero

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2011, 06:58:35 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2011, 06:59:11 PM »
One final set of remarks from my side on this capacitor thingy and then I will stop nagging.

Earlier yesterday I posted in the main OU discussion thread that multifilar wire ( = litze) probably includes a capacitance of several tenths of pF (see http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.2940 , reply #2940).
Quite different from the uF range values that others came up with.

It would be good to just having confirmed that multifilar is the way to go, rather then expressing the same thing as some sort of special winding is necessary to get added capacitance in the coil. Most of the forum member have no clue what you're talking about.
Advising in a too cryptical way will lead to even more cluttered discussions.

I am seeking for some kind of confirmation on my estimation that we have a few tenths of pF here.
Anyone with a trustworthy (;)) link?

[update]
Interesting links I found myself:
http://www.westbay.ndirect.co.uk/capacita.htm
http://www.magnetricity.com/NeoG/Bifilar.php (in particular fig 2 raises questions when projected to a 7 strand mutifilar coil as we are suppose to use)


Ya know, I cannot say for sure. And probably Romero cannot say for sure. ;] Though he did confirm my guess.


To make a set of bifi should not be hard to do and try, even just to eliminate that option.

I have a couple bifi, single strand per winding, and they are into the 10s of nf, .05 uf down to .011 uf.  Thats not pf. And I imagine being the stranded wire has more surface area, possibly more capacity could be had with it.
I would prefer, under these circumstances, an even no. of strands in the litz. This way you can mix up the wires in the litz to bifi, and the 2 separate windings will be in closer proximity and increase the capacitance even further.
I can imagine getting into the high 10s or low 100s of nf this way.

Be careful. lol  if you happen to measure capacitance across just 1 coil, not from 1 and the other, you may read 1 or more uf .   I cannot say this would be an accurate representation of capacitance of a single coil. ;]

After all this work, I would give it a shot.


I just saw Lidmotors walk around vid. Does he know about the advantage paralleling diodes has? I see only the 6A si. That may be what he needs. ;]


Mags

Offline bolt

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2011, 07:29:41 PM »
Inductance of a coil is a function of the core permeability  and the number of turns are the main factors.  A "special" coil can be wound where each of the litz wire strands can be separated to provide several higher frequency lower inductance windings or phases. Each end of the wire can be Averenko Diode Plugged. As each magnetic pulse of the passing neo magnetic flux produces "copies" of each winding which is why the voltage increases with the number of turns or each litz strand can produce its own individual excited elements with many other copies of the same joules of each wire strand without any degradation of the magnetic flux path.

Its important to note its not required to go looking for the frequency to be tuned TO as each strand has self capacitance of a couple of pf's and each length of wire represents a wavelength,  The energy from each wavelength (which will all be quite different to each other) is diode plugged and aggregated to a common o/p rather like a multi-tuned xtal radio.

I read in the past several expired patents using this process and can also lead to O.U motors and generators which can be rewound taking as many phases from the rotor as practical and terminating the ends of the wires in diode plugs.  Remember now cast you mind back when Romero said a few weeks ago Model RC 3 phase motors are already 97% efficient. They can be easy converted to 6 phases diode plugged on each strand and probably can go OU. They already have a perfect rotor with neos and professional castings.  Hector says find large commercial perm mag motors and convert to out-runners and diode plug all the wires as alike 21 phases provides hundred of watts OU.

Anyway bottom line YES its worthy of further bench testing.

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2011, 07:29:41 PM »
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Offline neptune

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2011, 08:02:22 PM »
@Bolt . Who is Hector please ? In your last paragraph , you talked about large permanent motor . What type of motor is this , are we talking a conventional brush type , or a larger version of the 3 phase model aircraft motor ? Hundreds of watts OU ? This is fascinating, but without more practical information and a circuit diagam , including the Avramenko plug circuit , no one can build anything . By converting to an outrunner , I assume that means fixing the shaft to a solid support and allowing the motor`s outer casing to spin . Your comments would be appreciated .

Offline bolt

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2011, 08:19:21 PM »
@Bolt . Who is Hector please ? In your last paragraph , you talked about large permanent motor . What type of motor is this , are we talking a conventional brush type , or a larger version of the 3 phase model aircraft motor ? Hundreds of watts OU ? This is fascinating, but without more practical information and a circuit diagam , including the Avramenko plug circuit , no one can build anything . By converting to an outrunner , I assume that means fixing the shaft to a solid support and allowing the motor`s outer casing to spin . Your comments would be appreciated .

AC or DC perm mag motor brushed or brush-less you can convert to an out-runner. Fix the shaft then rewind the coils so all the ends come out as separate phases to the existing armature pins. Now diode plug all the phases to a common DC BUS so you can convert  a  DC  2 brushes 21 pole motor to a 21 phase brush-less DC out-runner generator. You will notice now that the power can be taken off any phase at any time as there are no brushes. Each phase is constantly being pulsed by the now spinning neo magnets as the outer casing spins instead. As each phase is electrically isolated there is no cross conduction and each phase  can "ring" producing 21 times the energy.

PS this is NOT a Toy its a commercial application capable of producing hundreds if not many KW's pending motor size.  Im told as a guide you can get up to 10 times the old plated rating so a 5kw motor can become a 50KW generator.

Image courtesy ARK Research.

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2011, 08:19:21 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2011, 08:20:48 PM »
[..]
without more practical information and a circuit diagam , including the Avramenko plug circuit , no one can build anything . By converting to an outrunner , I assume that means fixing the shaft to a solid support and allowing the motor`s outer casing to spin
[...]

hi Neptune

is this what you meant by your coil oscillation test circuit?  (see below)

Hector is the main man wrt 'Rotovertor' technology

Avramenko plug is a capacitor connected across half a FWBR - two diodes, connected in series, both reverse polarity if using an electrolytic - fed with just ONE wire from a pulsing, or HF, circuit into the mid-point of the two diodes

an 'outrunner' is like that R/C motor we were all discussing way back - axial coils in the fixed stator, mag segments around a 'bell-like' outer rotor with a spindle going into a bearing in the centre of the all the coil radii - HavDad showed a video of one that he'd modified into a Genny a month back or so

hope this helps!
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

Offline EMdevices

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2011, 08:26:36 PM »
There's a few things that experimenters should realize concerning coils (if they don't already):


1)  Litz wire is used for coils when it comes to high frequency applications that require  HIGH Q VALUES, which means that you want the ratio of inductance/resistance to be high.   Why do you want a high Q value?  So you can tune to a particular frequency and have great selectrivity (it tunes very sharply) and amplification as in AM radio tank circuits.   The multistrand Litz wire achives these objectives because it has a lower AC RESISTENCE (as compared to DC resistance.)    AC resistance is limited by the SKIN EFFECT, and this effect limits the usable cross section of the coil wire that carries the current, so using lots of tiny wires in parallel lowers the AC resistance, and thiner wires can than be used that carry current across their whole cross-section, so a better utilization of the wire.    However, we can achive the same lower AC resistance with regular solid wire, but unfortunately you will use thicker wires (because resistance is proportional to the circumference of the wire multiplied by the skin depth) but the inside of the wire does not conduct current and is a useless volume and mass and $ wasted especialy with copper prices being as high as they are, so this does not make sense in a high volume manufacturing enterprise, but for experimentation who cares, right?   So use of Litz wire is realy an OPTIMIZATION for high frequency opperation, but not necessarily exclusive of other methods.  (for example in antennas, we use large diameter hollow tubes


2)  A coil that has many layers of winding,  is not only a great inductor (at low frequencies only)   but becomes a great CAPACITOR at high frequencies.     The capacitance is not tens of pF, but possibly hundreds if not thousands of pF depending on size and number of layers.    As the frequency of operation goes up high,  from circuit theory we know the impedance of inductors  (jwL) goes UP,   but for a capacitor  (1/jwC) goes DOWN.  So, the equivalent circuit for a typical coil in Romer's dynamo, is realy a capacitor in parallel with an inductor and resistor in series.   So at high frequencies the inductance + resistance is shunted by the capacitance and is realy not effective at all


3)  A comment about the dyanamo operation:    As I mentioned in my other posts,  the pulses from the coils occur at a high frequency , for example  5.76 kHz at 2400 RPM.   So we are operating at somewhat high frequencies but not too teribly high.   There are charts out there that show what size wire is necessary as a function of frequency and 100% skin depth.  (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm)      From this chart,  a solid wire of 0.8128 mm diameter is good up to 27 kHz, before the skin depth starts to limit the cross-section of the wire that conducts current (and hence the AC resistance starts decreasing relative to the DC resistance, but up to 27 kHz,  AC and DC resistance are pretty much EQUAL)    The bottom line,   no need to use Litz wire!    (unless something magical happens unaccounted by theory, of course) 


EM


PS,   In my opinion,  the interesting phenomena in this motor is

1) the short pulsing at high frequency, which is a type of COIL SHORTING at max voltage, and

2) the rapid speed of coil magnet alignments at a speed faster than the rotor speed, due to the 8/9 magnet to coil ratio, as I explained in other posts.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 10:47:43 PM by EMdevices »

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2011, 08:26:36 PM »
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Offline neptune

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2011, 08:51:13 PM »
@EMdevices .That was a good solid post , full of wisdom ,but there is one point that needs consideration . You quote a frequency of5.76 kHz at 2400 RPM . However there is a sort of concensus that Romero`s machine worked at around 1200 RPM . So, a frequency of 2.88 KHz . Problem is , how did you arrive at that figure . There is a theory doing the rounds that the the "magnetic events" happening at a given coil happen at 8 times  as often as would appear at first glance . This is due to even number of magnets and odd number of coils . If you did not factor this in , then frequency becomes 8x2.88 KHz or 23.04 KHz . and this does not take into account the possible importance of harmonics . So Litz might yet be beneficial . Your comments please?

Offline romerouk

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2011, 09:20:24 PM »
This can be built with one solid wire too but we need to use capacitors...
Below are pictures with some of the coils I am going to use in my new project, single wire. Not all are ready, more work to be done.

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2011, 09:29:32 PM »
That looks like some nice big coils Romerouk.  At least I think I'm seeing fairly large coils.  Hopefully some real generating power there ! 
 
Neptune,  you don't want to know about Hector unless you can handle some really harsh language and a slightly crazy sounding guy.  He does seem to have the mastery though on Rotoverters.  From what I've read though it's not an easy project unless you are bolt (or konehead or Hector) :D

Offline neptune

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Re: Romero's experiments and OU principles
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2011, 09:48:21 PM »
@nul-points . Many thanks for your help in drawing the circuit diagram . My skills did not allow me to do it . Suggested component values .
Transistor is any small signal NPN , eg 2N2222 etc
c1 and c2 are10 nf
R1 =100k
R2 10k
C3 -10pf to 47 pf .
  The capacitor values may not be the best but it will work . Supply is 9 volts .
L1 is your coil under test . Measure output frequency with a frequency counter .
@e2matrix . Fierce language and a bit crazy ,eh ? Are you sure you are not confusing him with me ?

 

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