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Author Topic: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept  (Read 25457 times)

Offline acp

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2006, 07:10:46 PM »
This doesn't work, I had almost exactly the same idea last year, built a model..... It just sat there. It cogs if you turn it by hand, but basically It completely balances out. Changing the air gap won't make any difference.

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2006, 07:10:46 PM »

Offline Gregory

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2006, 09:55:56 PM »
Hi Tishatang and all!

I want to say it's basically a very good idea, but of course have many troubles.
I'm working on a geometrically similar 4x3 design, but not the same as this. My new magnets arrived few days before, and now I'm testing different setups with my previous unworkable prototype, used as a testing tool.

4x3 geometry has interesting properties, but the geometry itself is not enough.

Until this day I don't have any success. So I was very disappointed and depressed.
I had a setup before, wich looked almost work, but of course didn't, it cogged. When I changed the position of one magnet by 1-2 millimeters, it became workable for that area, and spinned through the sticky spot. But the problem is, when I change the position of one magnet I brake the geometry, and this makes it also unworkable. And of course 1 or 2 millimeters is a long lenght if you are working with magnets.

I designed all my ideas to have only one sticky spots per stator magnet at the entering point to the field of the stator. I designed more than 50 setups from the last winter to this time, tested the best ones, and I still don't have "the great workable design".

This day I feel a bit better. I tested an attractive design, partly with my hand. I tested many times the same movement, and saw something interesting.
A rotor magnet attracted to a stator magnet, and when it wants to stop (due its attraction), another rotor magnet entered to a position, where another stator magnet attracted this second rotor magnet and free the first (cogging) rotor magnet, and pull it farther from its lock point, and finally the second magnet cogged. But what if, I add a third... and close the geometry...? ;)
I tested this many times with these 4 magnets. They all fixed in the same geometry, except the one in my hand.
This experiment makes me hoping a little, maybe it is possible to make it self-running, but i don't know. It has many troubles to work with this. Of course it also has very low torque.

Tishatang. I work with small neo magnets. My design has only one sticky spot at the entering point of the stator. If I think right your design has two, at the entering, and at the exiting points. But... Your design has much more force than my. I tested it with the same magnets I use.
So I think this theory really worth to try. But every sizes, dimensions, and proportions are very important. I think little changes can makes it workable or totally unworkable. There are big differences between two unworkable device. "Fighting" with geometry... It's really not easy.

Another good geometries for this: (rotor / stator)
5/3; 3/9 or 9/3;

Every geometrical setup has a best proportion, and a best diameter for the stator to rotor ratio. If you use wrong proportions, it looks really not good, but when it set into the right relation, it looks interesting.
I think the actual pictures are not bad.

Every geometrical ratio possible for the number of locked magnets per the number of working magnets. In this design at least 1 magnet always cog, and 3 other want to move it through. It is possible to use 1 vs. 6, or 1 vs. 8, but it is not instantly mean the design become workable if you add more and more working rotor magnet, because when you increase this proportion, you must increase the lenght of the stator magnets, and the force they are producing in the middle areas become smaller and smaller, and the same time the sticky spots become stronger and stronger.

Anyway, I think this is a good idea.
Good luck to experiment with it!

Best wishes,
Greg

Offline tishatang

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2006, 07:03:08 AM »
Hi Greg and Gregory,

Thanks for your detailed response.  I appreciate the feedback.
Yes, if you look at my design from a static standpoint, there are two sticky points, one entering and one leaving.  However, dynamically, the acceleration thru the gate was much more than any retarding pull by the magnetic fluxes.  Otherwise, the neo rod would not have scooted off the desk.

I have a philosophical  question:

Would the world be better off with a permanent magnet motor that self-ran, but was so delicate, it could produce no work,

Or, a cheap to make, compact pulse motor, that could be retro-fitted to the front wheel of a bicycle, and maybe give you a range of 75 miles instead of 20 miles?  How many consumer/commuters would choose the latter?

Maybe the pulse mode is the way to go!

Thanks,
Tishatang

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2006, 07:03:08 AM »
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Offline Gregory

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2006, 10:37:44 PM »
Hi Tishatang!

Very good question!

Of course, I think the function and the usability always have primary importance. So, when we are thinking only in present time I choose the latter, like many people do. But... If we are not consider present time only, and thinking without such limits I choose the first, the so delicate self-running magnetic toy. Because it has great scientific importance, wich makes it more important than (almost) every pulse motor.
And on the other hand, once a permanent magnetic motor become workable, It's just a question of hard work,  designing, and technology to make it stronger and stronger to turn into a really useful device.

However a pulse motor with good efficiency is absolutely viable, and its reality is unquestionable. Unlike the permanet magnet motor, wich branded to impossible by most of the physicists and scientists of nowadays.

But I like things believed as impossible. :D  I'm more an artist than an engineer. And if I think I have a good idea, I feel it's my role to try and make it real if it's possible. If my mind is enough I will do it, but if it isn't enough, then anybody other will do it in the future, I'm pretty sure.

Just wait and see... One day sombody will do the "impossible", it's sure. And I'm not a believer.  ;)

Thanks,
Greg

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 03:29:27 AM »
You would probably need special iron
cores to get this motor to work.
Just with magnets it will not work,
simular designs we had already tested years
ago...

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 03:29:27 AM »
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jake

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 04:14:17 PM »
Quote
I have a philosophical  question:

Would the world be better off with a permanent magnet motor that self-ran, but was so delicate, it could produce no work,

Or, a cheap to make, compact pulse motor, that could be retro-fitted to the front wheel of a bicycle, and maybe give you a range of 75 miles instead of 20 miles?  How many consumer/commuters would choose the latter?

Maybe the pulse mode is the way to go!

I vote for the second.  The journey to #2 could very well lead to #1.  With a constant focus on overunity, no matter how small, we go nowhere.  If we have a goal we might reach, we make a step toward big gains.

If you produce a motor that is, let's say, 1w overunity, you would have to multiply by 1,000,000 to get 1 megawatt.  It may be impossible to construct something so large.  A motor that is barely overunity is arguably of little practical use if it can do little more than turn itself.

This is why I am trying to form a group of people to work toward a vehicle propulsion motor that would possibly do as you suggest - make the same car go much farther with the same energy input.  This would be a more useful device that a wheel that can spin itself and light one LED extra, for example.  And it is a reachable goal that might allow us to learn how to get to the overunity goal.

Offline nightwynd

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 05:29:29 PM »
If the motor is cogging at a certain point, perhaps you could use another property of matter that many here seem to forget: inertia. Hook up an electric motor to this one, get it spinning as fast as you safely can without the magnets flying apart. Would the weight of the rotor arm give it enough inertial push to get it past the cog point and accelerate fast enough to the next one to actually increase its speed?

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 05:29:29 PM »
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Offline tishatang

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 08:54:43 PM »
This design would benefit by the use of inertia.

I was going to build my prototype by using a square piece of plywood 18 inches on a side with a 12 inch cirle cut out in the middle.  The plywood would be 1/2 thick.  I would use a router and cut a hollow groove inside the circle to hold the vinyl hose with the magnets inside.  3/8 ths magnets plus the thickness of the hose would be about 1/2 inch to equal the thickness of the plywood.

For the rotor, I would use two pieces of plastic cutting boards you can buy at Wal-Mart and cut out two 12 in circles.   With a spacer and some shims for width, I would attach the rotor magnets to the inside of the rotor discs.

I was going to use an automotive alternator to attach the rotor to.  This would give me strong smooth running bearings and a shaft that was disigned for a pulley (rotor) to be attached to.  If it ran, it would also generate some current since it is an alternator.  I don't know if modern alternators will motor.  That way you could attach a battery and spin the rotor up to speed.  If you can find an early alternator, they had permanent magnet fields, and should motor?  Of course, if you could just use a PM DC motor if you had one.

Once up to speed, you could disconnect the battery and see of it self-runs.  If so, you now have a built-in generator to measure output.

The piece of plywood could be notched to accomodate solenoids if you decide to make it into a pulse motor.

Tishatang

Offline Gregory

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2006, 12:58:27 AM »
You would probably need special iron
cores to get this motor to work.
Just with magnets it will not work,
simular designs we had already tested years
ago...

Thanks for the tip, Stefan. Let me see... What is the usability of these special iron cores? I can wind them up, and use as an electromagnet... or maybe for special shielding... and What more? How can I use them to make things going?

Quote
If you produce a motor that is, let's say, 1w overunity, you would have to multiply by 1,000,000 to get 1 megawatt.  It may be impossible to construct something so large.  A motor that is barely overunity is arguably of little practical use if it can do little more than turn itself.

Jake. I agree with you in this. I can agree with you easily, and understand your viewpoint, but I think you still missing something:
Once you have a self-running permanent magnetic toy, You can perfect it, and re-desing in a better way to make a useful device. And this spinning toy can be the best starting point to create the most efficient pulse motor of the world, isn't it? Maybe one day you not need to recharge the batteries of your newest device anymore, just drive the car... Now, it's only a "stupid dream", but nobody of us know everything, wich is possible... and Nobody of us understand and see through everything...

Nightwynd.
I didn't forget inertia, but yes it is usually a forgotten property. Thanks for the reminder.
I tested another setup. My design actually uses a little inertia, because it can't start by itself. Normally it is in balance. But when I push through one sticky spot, or just push back enough, the wheel spin through 2 sticky spots, and stop at the third, where it started, and where in balance. Now the geometry is still broken, and I can't close it, because the proportion seem to be wrong. But looks interesting when it spins through 2 attractive sticky spots, where normally magnets want to stop. I will do tests with it few more days, need to test all of my ideas very carefully. After I try to design and make it in the right form. I think maybe it can be something, what has partly similar effect as the eyewitnesses said about Bessler's last two wheel. It is normally in balance, so it has weaker balanced points on smaller areas, and stronger overbalanced points on larger areas... Once you push on a little, it begin to spin and can't stop without outsider influence. I think it is possible somehow. Sorry to mention Bessler...  :D But I observed this similarity.

Tishatang. Hope you enjoy to work with your design!  :)
Please post some words about your results, after you tested it properly. I intersted what happens at the cog points.

Thanks,
Greg

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2006, 12:58:27 AM »
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jake

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2006, 03:16:49 PM »
For any device to be useful, it must produce a lot of torque.  Most of the OU designs are vain attempts to get something to just rotate itself.  I see little value in this objective.  Step back and be objective, and look at how many examples there are of "I'm almost there" when you go through these forums.  There have been many brilliant people spend lifetimes trying to get a perfectly balanced wheel to be perpetually out of balance, or a force balanced magnetic contraption to rotate forever.  The device always wins.  It quickly or slowly relaxes into its equalibrium and sits there.

I find it unreasonable to think that any magnetic device without some outside stimulus will keep rotating.  It is the equivalent of thinking that some kind of gravity wheel will keep rotating.  The forces are balanced at some point (or all points) in the rotation in all these devices.  When the forces are balanced the device will not move.  You must disturb the equalibrium to cause motion.

As for magnetic devices with outside stimulation, I find it reasonable to think that there may be a chance to find COP>1.  It could be that the outside stimulus will tap in to some unknown and allow a COP > 1.

I will not entertain designs that include magnets only (no outside stimulus such as coils, etc.).  I believe it to be unreasonable to think that any magnet only device will produce any positive results.  Same goes for gravity only devices (gravity wheels, etc.) with no outside stimulus.  I would eliminate gravity-magnetic combinations for the same reason.  There is always equalibrium in these devices.

It should be intuitively obvious to a person with a minimal understanding of physics that gravity wheels will not work.  It should be just as obvious that magnet only devices will not work.  The magnets act as static forces, and a simple force analysis will expose that they can't work.

If you add electrically stimulated coils, I don't think the situation is hopeless.  The coils can cause disturbances to the otherwise static forces and provide the necessary stimulation to make the device actually rotate (Kundel, for example).  The trick is to shock the system in some way that taps into the undefined forces to create to COP > 1 that we are looking for.  Perhaps some kind of high voltage zap will cause the system to grab energy from the ether, or whatever.

But, as for me, I will not invest time in any gravity only, magnet only, or gravity-magnet device that doesn't have some other stimulation mechanism.  It is unreasonable to believe any such device will work - in my opinion.  In fact, there is some evidence to believe that when a magnet only device appears to work, the magnets deplete without explanation, and the device slowly stops - I have seen at least two reported cases of this on this site.

This leads me to believe that, ironically, if you figure out a way to get "power" from magnets, the magnets appear to deplete. (once again the second law wins)

If someone credibly and openly demonstrates otherwise, in a manner that is easily and widely reproduced, I will be most happy to say I was wrong.  Until then, my money and effort goes toward a more efficient, lighter, more powerful motor as the first objective - because it is reasonable to believe it can be done, and it has great benefits immediately.

jake

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2006, 03:28:09 PM »
An interesting quote from Sterling Allen that supports my position:


"If these guys (and others doing similar research, like Bedini) truly are getting over unity, and it isn't just a measurement error due to an unusual electromagnetic phenomenon, then it probably has to do with something that is happening to alter normal magnetic flux at the point where magnetic lock-up of the magnets is overcome by the proper electromagnetic pulse. Perhaps that sudden flip-flop is the gate to the inflow of external energy from ___ (fill in the blank: zero point energy? magnetic energy? gravity? or something else not even named or conceived yet?)" -- Sterling D. Allan (SilverThunder 10:06, 23 Feb 2006 (EST))

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2006, 03:28:09 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2006, 06:06:00 PM »
For any device to be useful, it must produce a lot of torque.  Most of the OU designs are vain attempts to get something to just rotate itself.  I see little value in this objective.  Step back and be objective, and look at how many examples there are of "I'm almost there" when you go through these forums.  There have been many brilliant people spend lifetimes trying to get a perfectly balanced wheel to be perpetually out of balance, or a force balanced magnetic contraption to rotate forever.  The device always wins.  It quickly or slowly relaxes into its equalibrium and sits there.

I find it unreasonable to think that any magnetic device without some outside stimulus will keep rotating.  It is the equivalent of thinking that some kind of gravity wheel will keep rotating.  The forces are balanced at some point (or all points) in the rotation in all these devices.  When the forces are balanced the device will not move.  You must disturb the equalibrium to cause motion.

As for magnetic devices with outside stimulation, I find it reasonable to think that there may be a chance to find COP>1.  It could be that the outside stimulus will tap in to some unknown and allow a COP > 1.

I will not entertain designs that include magnets only (no outside stimulus such as coils, etc.).  I believe it to be unreasonable to think that any magnet only device will produce any positive results.  Same goes for gravity only devices (gravity wheels, etc.) with no outside stimulus.  I would eliminate gravity-magnetic combinations for the same reason.  There is always equalibrium in these devices.

It should be intuitively obvious to a person with a minimal understanding of physics that gravity wheels will not work.  It should be just as obvious that magnet only devices will not work.  The magnets act as static forces, and a simple force analysis will expose that they can't work.

If you add electrically stimulated coils, I don't think the situation is hopeless.  The coils can cause disturbances to the otherwise static forces and provide the necessary stimulation to make the device actually rotate (Kundel, for example).  The trick is to shock the system in some way that taps into the undefined forces to create to COP > 1 that we are looking for.  Perhaps some kind of high voltage zap will cause the system to grab energy from the ether, or whatever.

But, as for me, I will not invest time in any gravity only, magnet only, or gravity-magnet device that doesn't have some other stimulation mechanism.  It is unreasonable to believe any such device will work - in my opinion.  In fact, there is some evidence to believe that when a magnet only device appears to work, the magnets deplete without explanation, and the device slowly stops - I have seen at least two reported cases of this on this site.

This leads me to believe that, ironically, if you figure out a way to get "power" from magnets, the magnets appear to deplete. (once again the second law wins)

If someone credibly and openly demonstrates otherwise, in a manner that is easily and widely reproduced, I will be most happy to say I was wrong.  Until then, my money and effort goes toward a more efficient, lighter, more powerful motor as the first objective - because it is reasonable to believe it can be done, and it has great benefits immediately.

I would mostly agree with Jake.  I think that using stimulus to the magnet motor and recovering the power used for motor operation (like Mr. Kundel's motor) through turning a alternator or generator would be the best method to use. 

Even though I believe that on the "Liberty motor" that I made, it would be possible to run the motor without power with a little redesign, but it probably would not be the best way to run the motor, because you could not control it as well.

I agree with Jake, that we will need high torque magnet motors that can be used in a small 'hub' to help provide motive power to our current vehicles, or something like it.  The hub device would be readily attachable.  It would be necessary and timely to have available until such time as a magnet motor alternator device can be developed to help to power it.  So it is good to persue both devices in my opinion. 

Offline Gregory

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2006, 10:49:59 PM »
Thanks for your response, Jake.
Okay, I don't want to convince you, or anybody, I never wanted. It's just an idea I'm trying myself.
By the way I really agree with you, electricity and magnetism work best together, and an only magnetic device itself is not practical. I just think, if you have one, and understand how it works, you have better understandings to make a good magnetic-electromagnetic device wich is suitable for usual applications. Thats all.
If I'm not annoying you... Please can you clarify for me, which ones are those devices you mention they are depleted? Maybe one is the Perendev one? And the other?
Thank you.


Hello Liberty,
If you really feel, your machine can run without electricity with a little redesign, I recommend to try it, and if it truly run, you can add your (new) coil setup to it, and make it powerful.
But I don't want to prejudice you, or chip on your work.

Good work all for you!

jake

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2006, 11:43:02 PM »
Here are notes from the first one that made an impression on me (This is not perendev):

Quote
CONCLUSION:

This kind of device is interesting, and the principle
is easy to understand and to follow.
In my experiments, my magnets got weak after some
hours of testing and never reached speeds more than
100..150 revolutions/minute. This shows, that much
energy is lost due to eddy currents wich are inducted in the
soft iron and the nickel-plating of the magnets i used.
Maybe also a big loss of energy is caused by my magnets itself,
on memeber of the group tells me that my magnets (NeFeB)
are highly conductive and so they are itself a big reason
to brake the system due to eddy currents.

This the device spins without initial startup for up to 50 seconds.
(I had some longer runs (up to five minutes) but this runs are not
predictable and not safely repeatable.) 40-50 Second runs
without any starting action was the "normal", wich is interesting
enough to think and experiment a little bit more..

Further experiments will show, if ceramic magnets
will do a better job!

greetings
helmut goebkes

His wheel type device was the most promising looking wheel I stumbled in to.  It really looked like it could work (and apparently it did until the magnets weakened)  If this testimony is true, it leads me to believe that if you really get a wheel to run with magnets only, you will weaken the magnets because you are really drawing power (not just force) from the magnets.

I'm positive there was one more all magment design I saw either here, or linked from here that described the same issue. (depleting magnets)  I think it may have been perendev, as you guessed, but I'm not sure.  I know I saw another, because it struck me after seeing the above one.  I was so impressed by the Goebkes device that I copied the information into my records.  When I saw the same effect in another device it made me form the hypothesis that there is some problem that occurs if you do figure out a way to pull power from mags.

Offline Liberty

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2006, 12:31:24 AM »
Here are notes from the first one that made an impression on me (This is not perendev):

Quote
CONCLUSION:

This kind of device is interesting, and the principle
is easy to understand and to follow.
In my experiments, my magnets got weak after some
hours of testing and never reached speeds more than
100..150 revolutions/minute. This shows, that much
energy is lost due to eddy currents wich are inducted in the
soft iron and the nickel-plating of the magnets i used.
Maybe also a big loss of energy is caused by my magnets itself,
on memeber of the group tells me that my magnets (NeFeB)
are highly conductive and so they are itself a big reason
to brake the system due to eddy currents.

This the device spins without initial startup for up to 50 seconds.
(I had some longer runs (up to five minutes) but this runs are not
predictable and not safely repeatable.) 40-50 Second runs
without any starting action was the "normal", wich is interesting
enough to think and experiment a little bit more..

Further experiments will show, if ceramic magnets
will do a better job!

greetings
helmut goebkes

His wheel type device was the most promising looking wheel I stumbled in to.  It really looked like it could work (and apparently it did until the magnets weakened)  If this testimony is true, it leads me to believe that if you really get a wheel to run with magnets only, you will weaken the magnets because you are really drawing power (not just force) from the magnets.

I'm positive there was one more all magment design I saw either here, or linked from here that described the same issue. (depleting magnets)  I think it may have been perendev, as you guessed, but I'm not sure.  I know I saw another, because it struck me after seeing the above one.  I was so impressed by the Goebkes device that I copied the information into my records.  When I saw the same effect in another device it made me form the hypothesis that there is some problem that occurs if you do figure out a way to pull power from mags.

Hi Jake,

Just a quick note before I have to leave.  You should also put Steve Kundel's motor in your records, because as far as I know, his magnets are still working in his motor.  I think it depends on how deeply you stress the magnet and of what type you use. 

As far as the "Liberty motor" goes, I ran it for several hours per day and during several different days.  Then took the magnets out and stuck them to the table.  No problem here with demagnetization.  I used standard neo magnets.

Have a good day, I've got to go mow the yard.  Bye.

Liberty

 

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