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Author Topic: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept  (Read 25443 times)

Offline tishatang

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4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« on: June 01, 2006, 09:14:15 AM »
Hi all,

I really like this forum.  If my idea for a permanent magnet motor is to be realized, it will be here as a collective effort.  Also, if my logic is faulty, it will be revealed before energy is spent building a prototype.  I will have to describe my process of thinking step by step as I do not know how to draw using the computer.  This motor could possibly a self-runner, or at the very least, a highly efficient, high torque pulse motor. It should be relatively easy to build compared to some other designs.

To show then motive force I employ, you will need 30 or 40 neo or ceramic disc magnets 3/8ths to 1/2 inch in diameter and about 1/8th inch thick.  You will also need two ceramic rectangle hobby magnets about 2 inches by 1 inch by 1/4 in thick.

To simulate the rotor to stator relationship, I used two clear CD blanks that were protectors in a CD-R bundle.
Using a felt pen, I drew different rotor/stator configuations that I could superimpose and rotate until I determined the ideal was 4 rotor poles and 3 stator positions.  Hence the title 4X3, or if a pulse motor 4X3=12 pulses per revolution.

To build the motor described, you will need 100 to 150 disc magnets and 8 rectangle magnets.  All plentiful and cheap, nothing exotic.

Try :  http://www.wondermagnet.com/main.shtml

and also :   http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category/370/Magnets.html

The latter is good also for optical sensors and other things of interest.

It has been a long day for me.  I am putting a new roof on my humble abode and tomorrow is another long day.

I will post again tomorrow and walk you thru the process.
Thanks,

Tishatang












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jake

  • Guest
Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2006, 02:35:53 PM »
Listening.

gn0stik

  • Guest
Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2006, 03:50:10 PM »
If you could draw a picture on paper and scan it in that would be cool. I'm no good a drawing with a mouse either so I understand your dilemma. For me, my surfing hand is my right hand and I write and draw with my left, so it's no good.

Anyway, we'd like to hear your design.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2006, 03:50:10 PM »
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jake

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2006, 04:48:14 PM »
If you do sketches and descriptions I can help with drawings if needed.

I have Solid Works (3d), Solid Edge (3d), and Autocad (2d).

If we go farther than drawings, I usually have idle machine shop equipment.  120x60x30 CNC mill (router - non ferrous & plastics - no hard metals) - Standard Bridgeport mill, small lathe, small surface grinder, bandsaw, misc power and hand tools.

I can handle most any type of data files to machine from.  STL and Iges work particularly well in most cases, but I can take any common format to work from.

If anyone has legitimate, promising looking projects, I am interested in helping in any way I can, as I have time.

I think an "open source" project of some kind would be a great thing on this forum.  I am eager to participate if we come up with the right project.

Offline kadora

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2006, 07:01:09 AM »
I am eager to participate too with my turner,
mill machine and tectronic osciloscope .
We have to find mag motor solution.

magnetism is amazing

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2006, 07:01:09 AM »
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Offline tishatang

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2006, 08:06:38 AM »
Hi all,

Thanks for your interest.  This idea came to me about 3 years ago, and I thought I would get around to building it someday.  Problem is, I will be 70 soon and who knows when that someday will be?

I am recalling this by memory because I have no idea where my original stuff is.

I was playing with a bunch of 3/8 inch neo magnets and was amazed at how they liked to assemble themselves into rodlike structures.  As you add on more magnets, the poles would get stronger and stronger.
I knew about magnetic flux gates and wondered what would happen if I brought two bar magnets together with the rod of neos in the middle forming a flus gate.

I used two ceramic hobby magnets with like polarity facing each other in a repell position.  Do not  try this with neo bar magnets as they are too strong to control with your hands and you could hurt yourself.  As I brought the bar magnets together in the middle of about a 4 inch long column of neos, I could see the column start to move forward but they would roll sideways and stick to my hand held bar magnets.  I have a 16 inch long double edge desk ruler that has a notch cut in the middle to hold a pencil.  I placed the column of neos in the notch to act as sort of a guide to prevent the rod from rolling sideways.  Much to my surprise, if my timing was perfect in that the two hand held magnets came together at the same speed and distance, the rod of neos would accelerate thru the flux gate so fast that they would fly right off the table!  I knew I had discovered a cheap and easy flux gate linear motor.  If I could convert this principle to a rotary version, a motor would result.  I also noticed that  the leading edge of the neo column only had to barely enter the leading edge of the bar magnet for the gate to open and the column would start to accelerate thru.

I discovered my 3/8 neos would fit perfectly inside a 3/8 I.D. clear vinyl flexible hose that you can buy at any building supply.  I stuffed a bunch of neos inside the hose and found I could bend the column in a circle.  The hose allowed a slight movement between each indidual magnet for them to shift and bend in an arc.  So, the problem of converting linear motion to rotary motion seemed solved, at least in my mind.

I next worked on the rotor/stator relationship.
Take a piece of paper and draw a circle about 6 inches in diameter.  Starting at the bottom 6 o'clock position,
mark three points on the circle 120 degrees apart.  These will be the leading edges of the flux gate stators.
Allow 90 degress for the end of each gate which leaves 30 degrees free space between the end of one flux gate and the beginning of another.  Mark with heavy lines these three flux gates representing the bent 90 degree arcs of magnets so that they are easy to see.

Now get two popsicle sticks and glue them together 90 degrees from each other forming a perfect cross.  These will represent the rotor with four poles, each pole being the two magnets in repell mode.  By reversing the polarity of the pole magnets, the motor will turn in the oposite direction.  Stick a pin thru the middle of the cross and the middle of the circle.  This will simulate the rotor turning thru the flux gates.  Bring a pole of the rotor to the leading edge of the bottom 6 o'clock position flux gate.  This will be the point of highest flux resistance keeping the rotor from entering the gate.  Remember, all we have to do is get the leading edge of the rotor past the leading edge of the gate for the rotor to accelerat thru.  As we have the bottom rotor in this position, take a look at where the other rotor poles are and what is going on in their respective positions.  We notice that one rotor is in between flux gates and is basicaly neutral.  However, we also notice that two of the rotor poles have already entered their respective flux gates and are helping accelerate the bottom pole towards the flux gate which is about to be engaged.

Because of the geometry of the 4X3 configuration, we have two flux gates acting together to help get the sticky pole thru its gate!  Of course, we can help the situation more by shielding the leading edge of each flux gate.  Also I have read, that an ordinary ball bearing does wonders to modify flux fields.  Maybe all we have to do is add a ball bearing to the leading edge of the flux gate.  

If we cannot get it to self run, we can always add a solenoid coil in front of each flux gate.  We could wind a bifiler coil and trigger it ala Bedini.  I think a simple coil triggered by an optical sensor would be better.  It would be timed to fire just befor the rotor pole reaches it in attrack mode to the solenoid.  The pulse would be timed to shut off just as the pole passes the solenoid the collapsing field reversing the polarity of the solenoid which would help kick the rotor pole thru the gate.  You could use only one coil and fine tune it.  When you get everything right, you could add the other two coils.
You could refine the opical sensors to move like an automotive  distributor allowing you to get the best power at various motor rpms.

This design is very scalable.  You can build it bigger or smaller or stack multiple rotors and stators together.

Let me know what you think.

Tishatang

Offline Magnetizer

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4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2006, 12:54:31 PM »
Hi all,

As the old thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1086.0.html has been locked, i have started a new thread for it ...

I read the explanations from Tishatang and tried to figure out the setup of his idea. So I made some drawing and attached it to that message.

I wanted to ask Tishatang if this drawing is what you wanted to tell us ?

Best regards,

Magnetizer

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2006, 12:54:31 PM »
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jake

  • Guest
Re: 4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2006, 02:36:52 PM »
Nice work on the drawing.  It is functionally as I envisioned it also.

I took a stack of 1/2 x 1/8 neo's and tinkered around with them for a while.  What I noticed is the force is very strong toward either end of the stack of magnets (repelling at one end, attracting at the other), but much less when the opposing magnets are in the middle somewhere.  There is probably some force profile that could be tested and plotted.

I think what is going to happen (without electrical input somehow) is that the device is going to find cogging points through the rotation and not rotate continuously.  If the force anywhere along the stator magnets was equal, the device appears to be perpetually out of balance.  I suspect that the drop in force while in the middle of the poles will cause the device to be in equalibrium.

It is very interesting, simple to construct, and easy to modify, etc.  I would like to know whether this device would cog or just be force balanced through the rotation.

This looks like something that could be made to rotate by combining with the Flynn effect to weaken the sticky spots at the right times.

jake

  • Guest
Re: 4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2006, 02:46:09 PM »
Magnetizer,

Is it easy for you to manipulate your rotor in the drawing?

If so, can you rotate the rotor 15 degrees clockwise and post another view?  This will put it at a point where the two rotor poles on the right exactly line up with the ends of the stator pole.  I think this is a point of uncertainty.  The upper right pole wants to stay where it is, very strongly.  The lower right pole doesn't want to stay there at all, and the two on the left are out in the middle where there is not a lot going on.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2006, 02:46:09 PM »
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Offline Magnetizer

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Re: 4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2006, 04:28:49 PM »
Magnetizer,

Is it easy for you to manipulate your rotor in the drawing?

If so, can you rotate the rotor 15 degrees clockwise and post another view? 

Here it is ...

Best regards,

Magnetizer

gn0stik

  • Guest
Re: 4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2006, 04:56:41 PM »
what do you use for your drawings magnetizer?

I just found a free 3D modelling software by google called sketchup.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 05:09:53 PM by gn0stik »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2006, 04:56:41 PM »
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jake

  • Guest
Re: 4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2006, 05:00:24 PM »
Thanks.

I wonder what happens right in that area.  The upper left rotor mag doesn't want to be there, the left one wants to be there, the two to the right side are ambivalent.  I think this is the problem with it.  I believe it will either cog or produce no torque at all.

There are all kinds of ways to modify, but I'm not sure you don't keep ending up in the same spot. - balanced or cogging.

Offline tishatang

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Re: 4x3 permanent magnet motor concept. Part 2
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2006, 06:35:55 PM »
Hi Magnetiser and all,

Boy, you guys are quick!  Nice drawings.
Just a quick response before my day starts.

Comments:

Rotate the bar magnets 90 degrees so that they are in a sense parallel to the rotor magnets.
Make the air gap bigger, say 40 degrees.
Make the the rotor magnets diameter smaller by 50 percent in relation to the size of the bar magnets.
Increase the diameter of the rotor by 50 percent.

It will be easy to change length of stator length by just adding or removing magnets inside the vinyl hose.

I don't think it will cog when we get the right proportions.

Thanks,
Tishatang

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2006, 11:25:14 PM »
I have merged the 2 topics now...Who did lock the first topic ??
Did I klick wrong ?

Offline tishatang

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Re: 4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2006, 04:59:21 AM »
Hi all,
Just fired up my computer and reread my earlier post.

I hadn't had my morning coffee when I wrote it and I see when I said rotor magnets I meant to say stator magnets.  I think it will be easier for me to say bar magnets for the rotor and discs for the stator.   It will be easier for me to think bar or rectangle for one and round or disc for the other.  Also, since the stator is really a flux gate component, is it really a stator?  Maybe in the sense that it is the fixed part of the equation.

As I look at this posting reply page, I see at the bottom the "lock this topic" toggle.

I probably  did it by accident as I wrote my long post.  My computer is an old laptop with a real sensitive touch screen.

Hopefully our collective energies will be fruitful.

Tishatang

 

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