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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: MagneticPotential on May 30, 2011, 09:47:10 PM

Title: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: MagneticPotential on May 30, 2011, 09:47:10 PM
Hello all. This is my first post on this forum. I have come up with a method for magnet motor regauging which I am calling the 90-60 Method. The "90-60" refers to magnetic field interactions at 90 and 60 degree angles used for canceling out (balancing) magnetic field effects thus mechanically separating the amount of force acting on the magnets from the amount of force required to regauge them. I have described the method in detail on this page:

http://www.magneticpotential.com/2011/05/90-60-method-for-regauging-magnet.html (http://www.magneticpotential.com/2011/05/90-60-method-for-regauging-magnet.html)

Though I've been studying and pondering mechanics and magnetism for years, I am not very mechanically inclined, so I've been taking forever to design and build an actual device. I have done some basic experiments just to prove the concept to myself, but nothing worthy of a video.

Though it is a bit tedious to explain, the idea itself is actually very simple. This is why I am so excited about it. I just need to come up with an easy "proof of concept" experiment that people could do on their own. Easy replication is the key to getting this type of information out to the masses, because if people don't understand it, they won't pay it any attention.

I would really appreciate any feedback. When I passed the page linked above to my friends, I was inundated with "It won't work ..." comments which showed little or no understanding of basic mechanics or magnetism. I really feel that any perceived flaw in the method is the result of a lack of communication on my part, which I would very much like an opportunity to remedy.
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: kadora on May 31, 2011, 07:38:07 AM
Hi MagneticPotential
brand new approach to magnets
excellent thank you
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: gravityblock on May 31, 2011, 11:54:14 AM
Everything highlighted in "bold" is a link.

MagneticPotential,

It won't work with conventional magnets, but your concept may work using correlated magnets if coded properly.  The repulsive force between two magnets is weaker than the attractive force between the same two magnets, so the magnets won't move into a position resulting in an equilateral triangle.  Here's an on-line calculator which displays the pull and repulsion forces between two disc magnets (http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/Calc_filles/PullAndPushBetween2DiscMagnets.asp).  If the calculator doesn't convince you, then here's a video with an experiment using Attraction vs Repulsion in Magnetic Field (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sUpFc-0yg0).

Correlated magnets is going to change everything you ever thought you knew about magnetism.  Watch this video on "Multi-Level Magnetism (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/Vdo_multimag.html)".  The video shows that the near-field repulsive force is stronger than the near-field attractive force, while the far-field attractive force is stronger than the far-field repulsive force.  The reverse can be achieved also.  In addition to the near and far fields, there is a shortest path.  At the "zero point" there is an equal repel and attractive force.  This can be seen where the magnets are repelling each other, while they are also attracting each other.  Also, note how they were able to dynamically change the "zero point" in real time.  As you can see, the repel force between the magnets is equal in strength to the attractive force between the magnets under the right conditions.  If they're not equal in strength between the magnets, then it's because some of it's strength is elsewhere and it's field isn't totally concentrated between the magnets, but there's an equal net force still present.

Reference Links:

Video Gallery on Correlated Magnets (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/videogallery.html).
Introduction to Correlated Magnetics (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/Intro.html)
Coding Theory (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/codetheory.html).
Correlation Theory (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/corrtheo.html).

Spend a few hours researching Correlated Magnets, and your view on magnetism will be much different.  Some of the links above has a "next" and "previous" button to navigate through the presentation.  The correlated  magnets can also be done with arrays or with multiple electromagnets.  If you have the magnets coded properly (where the repel and attraction forces are equal in strength), then your chances of success will be greatly increased.

GB
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 02, 2011, 05:31:07 PM
Hello all. This is my first post on this forum. I have come up with a method for magnet motor regauging which I am calling the 90-60 Method. The "90-60" refers to magnetic field interactions at 90 and 60 degree angles used for canceling out (balancing) magnetic field effects thus mechanically separating the amount of force acting on the magnets from the amount of force required to regauge them. I have described the method in detail on this page:

http://www.magneticpotential.com/2011/05/90-60-method-for-regauging-magnet.html (http://www.magneticpotential.com/2011/05/90-60-method-for-regauging-magnet.html)

Though I've been studying and pondering mechanics and magnetism for years, I am not very mechanically inclined, so I've been taking forever to design and build an actual device. I have done some basic experiments just to prove the concept to myself, but nothing worthy of a video.

Though it is a bit tedious to explain, the idea itself is actually very simple. This is why I am so excited about it. I just need to come up with an easy "proof of concept" experiment that people could do on their own. Easy replication is the key to getting this type of information out to the masses, because if people don't understand it, they won't pay it any attention.

I would really appreciate any feedback. When I passed the page linked above to my friends, I was inundated with "It won't work ..." comments which showed little or no understanding of basic mechanics or magnetism. I really feel that any perceived flaw in the method is the result of a lack of communication on my part, which I would very much like an opportunity to remedy.
This is interesting stuff. I have a bunch of small disc magnets. I tried this experiment just now. I can confirm that the theory described are 100% correct.

The only consern I can think of is the potentially difference in potential energy between a 90 degree alignment and a 60 degree alignment. Will it take energy to convert from 60 to 90 degrees in order to repeat the cycle?

Probably not as the red magnets will repel eachother, and have to move tangential in order to move from 60 to 90 degrees.

......I was hoping for a Chineese dinner plate tonight (just me and my wife) without thinking about magnets :-\

Vidar
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 03, 2011, 12:15:58 AM
Everything highlighted in "bold" is a link.

MagneticPotential,

It won't work with conventional magnets, but your concept may work using correlated magnets if coded properly.  The repulsive force between two magnets is weaker than the attractive force between the same two magnets, so the magnets won't move into a position resulting in an equilateral triangle.  Here's an on-line calculator which displays the pull and repulsion forces between two disc magnets (http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/Calc_filles/PullAndPushBetween2DiscMagnets.asp).  If the calculator doesn't convince you, then here's a video with an experiment using Attraction vs Repulsion in Magnetic Field (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sUpFc-0yg0).

Correlated magnets is going to change everything you ever thought you knew about magnetism.  Watch this video on "Multi-Level Magnetism (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/Vdo_multimag.html)".  The video shows that the near-field repulsive force is stronger than the near-field attractive force, while the far-field attractive force is stronger than the far-field repulsive force.  The reverse can be achieved also.  In addition to the near and far fields, there is a shortest path.  At the "zero point" there is an equal repel and attractive force.  This can be seen where the magnets are repelling each other, while they are also attracting each other.  Also, note how they were able to dynamically change the "zero point" in real time.  As you can see, the repel force between the magnets is equal in strength to the attractive force between the magnets under the right conditions.  If they're not equal in strength between the magnets, then it's because some of it's strength is elsewhere and it's field isn't totally concentrated between the magnets, but there's an equal net force still present.

Reference Links:

Video Gallery on Correlated Magnets (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/videogallery.html).
Introduction to Correlated Magnetics (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/Intro.html)
Coding Theory (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/codetheory.html).
Correlation Theory (http://www.correlatedmagnetics.com/corrtheo.html).

Spend a few hours researching Correlated Magnets, and your view on magnetism will be much different.  Some of the links above has a "next" and "previous" button to navigate through the presentation.  The correlated  magnets can also be done with arrays or with multiple electromagnets.  If you have the magnets coded properly (where the repel and attraction forces are equal in strength), then your chances of success will be greatly increased.

GB
Howard Johnson also said that repulsion is weaker than attraction, but very little difference. This is my experience too. It shouldn't be the reason why Tonys idea don't work in practice. It shoud be something else. I cannot see why yet.

Vidar
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: gravityblock on June 03, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Howard Johnson also said that repulsion is weaker than attraction, but very little difference. This is my experience too. It shouldn't be the reason why Tonys idea don't work in practice. It shoud be something else. I cannot see why yet.

Vidar

There's quite a bit of difference if you take a look at the calculator.  Elias on another forum says the calculator gives pull and push forces which are approximately related to each other by the Golden Mean (1.618).  I haven't verified this, so it may be something to look into.

GB
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 03, 2011, 10:47:49 AM
There's quite a bit of difference if you take a look at the calculator.  Elias on another forum says the calculator gives pull and push forces which are approximately related to each other by the Golden Mean (1.618).  I haven't verified this, so it may be something to look into.

GB
Hi,

This ratio cannot be correct. See the pictures of the experiment I just did. I made an array of 12 small neos configured as NSNSNSNSNSNS. I used a long neo bar with N or S down, and tested wether it will repel or attract. Honestly, I cannot feel much of an attraction. Maybe slightly, but I can feel a repelling force too. It all depends on how accurate I place the bar magnet over the array which is suppose to cancel out attraction and repel. The "Golden Ratio" relation has nothing to do with it. If it had, the bar bagnet would instantly snapped out of my fingers. Remember, this is very strong neodym magnets in very close proximity.

PS! The bar magnet have a copper foil around it. I use this magnet to attach battery cells for charging. The copper foil has nothing to do with the experiment.
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: gravityblock on June 03, 2011, 04:24:16 PM
Hi,

This ratio cannot be correct.

According to the calculator the attractive force is approximately 1.618 times the repel force between two magnets.  With arrays or different configurations, then the results may be different. 

GB
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 03, 2011, 05:09:15 PM
According to the calculator the attractive force is approximately 1.618 times the repel force between two magnets.  With arrays or different configurations, then the results may be different. 

GB
It does not have to be an array. I have tested only two side by side NS and approach a smaller magnet with S or N. Does not matter. The attraction is litterally not present.
Maybe the person who designed that calculator was drunk... ;D

Vidar
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 03, 2011, 07:40:50 PM
I believe (from experiments) that the possible difference between attraction an repulsion is depending on how equal two opposing or attractive magnets are. If one is much stronger than the other (ferrite vs neodymium), you can have attraction regardless of the position of the weakest magnet. If they are 100% equal, I strongly believe the attraction is equal to repulsion. This is also what I have confirmed by using neodymium magnets with small tolerances.

Vidar
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: gravityblock on June 03, 2011, 09:45:09 PM
It does not have to be an array. I have tested only two side by side NS and approach a smaller magnet with S or N. Does not matter. The attraction is litterally not present.
Maybe the person who designed that calculator was drunk... ;D

Vidar

I have done the same test.  The approaching magnet is attracted to the magnet with the opposite polarity while also being repelled towards the magnet with the opposite polarity by the magnet with the like polarity.  The test was done with neos of the same size.

GB
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 04, 2011, 12:50:25 AM
I have done the same test.  The approaching magnet is attracted to the magnet with the opposite polarity while also being repelled towards the magnet with the opposite polarity by the magnet with the like polarity.  The test was done with neos of the same size.

GB
This is my experience too. However, when the approaching magnet is guided by a given path that doesn't allow it to move sideways, there is nor repulsive or attractive force in that particular vector.

Attached there is an animation which explains Tonys idea. A rotating wheel with proper guides can make all necessary operations of both red magnets. If the magnets behave as expected by Tony (and myself), we have at least a device which harness some kind of "unknown" energy.
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: gravityblock on June 04, 2011, 01:08:56 AM
Vidar,

Thanks for the animation.  I'll continue to play around with this concept.  It's an interesting approach and may be fruitful.

GB   
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: excessAlex on June 05, 2011, 03:25:32 PM
My 2 cents..

may be helpful for the design of the guides?

Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 05, 2011, 05:20:28 PM
Except the red magnets MUST escape in 60 degrees angle - not 45 as in the drawing. The escape of the second magnet can also be 60 degrees initially, but farther away from the fixed magnet, the path can take a slight turn so that magnet ends up 90 degrees off the other red magnet - into the initial position again.

I am working on a drawing that use a wheel with paths on it. I will post pictures soon.

Vidar
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: MagneticPotential on June 05, 2011, 07:23:35 PM
Wow! Thank you all for your great replies. Low-Q and excessAlex, your diagrams are great! It's so good to see all of your ideas. I am taking in and processing your comments and insights. In addition, I am putting together an animation to illustrate the implementation which I have been imagining.
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 05, 2011, 09:33:15 PM
Here is the operation of the magnets - how I imagine it would work. Green path activates the top magnet. Red path activates the other magnet. A cam on the wheel lifts the left side path into a 60 degree alignment.

The vertical path is always fixed. The other path is fixed only when the magnet is sliding back and forth.
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 06, 2011, 11:37:51 AM
Here is an experiment of magnetic cancellation. I used speaker magnets. The two bottom magnets are fixed - not moving. The upper magnet is freely sliding on the table. Look at the small gap between the "free" magnet and the other two magnets, and still there is no sign of attraction. A guide prevents the "free" magnet to fly into the blue magnet. This is total cancellation - just what we want.
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 06, 2011, 12:21:22 PM
I did now the 60 degree escape experiment with guides. Problem found!
The two magnets will not escape the center magnet. The attraction between both magnets and the center magnet is greater than the repulsion between the escaping magnets. Two attractions vs. one repulsion so to speak. The attraction wins and will make sure the kinetic energy that is gained in step one will cancel out by the required energy to make the 60 degree escape.

So basicly we can say that this design will not work. This is bad news :'(

Vidar
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 06, 2011, 11:18:44 PM
The 60 degree vector will allow attraction in step 3, while there is no attraction in the 90 degree vector in step 2.
So what made me blind was the cancellation BETWEEN the other red magnet and the center magnet, while I forgot the attraction in the 60 degree angle where the movement in step 3 actually is.

Well, never mind the explanations. It will not work :-\
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: gravityblock on June 07, 2011, 12:23:45 PM
Vidar,

Here's my attempt at making the attraction and repulsive forces equal.  Let me know what you think.  Maybe you can run a simulation of this.  The gray in the image represents a ferromagnetic material, and the green is a non-ferromagnetic material used as a spacer, such as plastic.  The back-side has a greater repulsive force, while the front-side has a greater attractive force.  They should cancel each other.  The only downside is the small edge effects with the ferromagnetic material.  This could be minimized by not over-saturating the ferromagnetic material, and to leave a greater distance between the ferromagnetic material and the two approaching and departing magnets.  Also note, the small gray areas located between the poles of the magnets on the side-view can be dis-regarded, that was due to me using that color as a stroke color while drawing.

Thanks,

GB

Edit:  After second thought, this won't work either.  Solving one problem creates another problem, LOL.
Title: Re: The 90-60 Method for Regauging Magnet Motors
Post by: Low-Q on June 07, 2011, 06:41:29 PM
Vidar,

Here's my attempt at making the attraction and repulsive forces equal.  Let me know what you think.  Maybe you can run a simulation of this.  The gray in the image represents a ferromagnetic material, and the green is a non-ferromagnetic material used as a spacer, such as plastic.  The back-side has a greater repulsive force, while the front-side has a greater attractive force.  They should cancel each other.  The only downside is the small edge effects with the ferromagnetic material.  This could be minimized by not over-saturating the ferromagnetic material, and to leave a greater distance between the ferromagnetic material and the two approaching and departing magnets.  Also note, the small gray areas located between the poles of the magnets on the side-view can be dis-regarded, that was due to me using that color as a stroke color while drawing.

Thanks,

GB

Edit:  After second thought, this won't work either.  Solving one problem creates another problem, LOL.
Just what I was thinking too. You will change the conditions in step 2 also. I honestly think that Nature is hard to fool. But we never give up, right? :)

I think the "zipper motor" is worth a try too. I "know" it won't work, but I would really like to know what exactly do prevent the zipper motor to run forever.http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10417.msg275686#msg275686 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10417.msg275686#msg275686)

I'll buy some "rubber magnets" which I can cut into triangles and see if the right part in the picture (in the link), will separate as I think it will. If it does, I must try to complete the cycle with shieldings on the left side.


Vidar