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Author Topic: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure  (Read 17499 times)

Offline vineet_kiran

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Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« on: May 25, 2011, 02:43:26 PM »
Water can be pumped without using a pump!.  See the attachment for details.

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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2011, 04:05:55 PM »
Water can be pumped without using a pump!.  See the attachment for details.
What is new about this? This works the same way as a medical syringe. Put it in water and pull the rubber piston. Voila, water is going into the syringe.
You face a sub pressure when trying to pull out the inner cylinder due to the weight of the water you want to rise. It works, but it will require energy input to work.

Vidar

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 04:46:34 AM »
Medical syringe works like a reciprocating pump. When you pull the rubber piston, external atmospheric pressure straight away acts on the piston.  The idea of keeping both ends of tube V2 open is to prevent atmospheric pressure acting on it.

Please understand the concept before making comments. 

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 04:46:34 AM »
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Offline fritznien

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2011, 05:42:22 AM »
looked, understood, and it is a piston pump and air pressure dose act on V2.
when you bend the hose to pull on V2 you create a surface for air pressure to push it back in to
equalize the pressure.
thankyou for playing please play again.
fritznien

Offline tinu

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 10:50:47 AM »
“A very interesting point here to note is that work input to the system is only energy supplied to overcome friction between tube V2 and rubber ring” – Quote from AP Pump.pdf

Interesting it may indeed be but not true surely is. Vacuum swortze be with us ;)

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 10:50:47 AM »
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Offline JamesBe1

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 04:47:34 PM »
I think the flaw in the reasoning is in the statement "A very interesting point here to note is that work input to the system in only energy supplied to overcome friction between tube V2 and rubber ring . . ."
This is simply not the case.  The real energy input to the system is the energy required to overcome the friction of the o-ring plus the energy to overcome the air pressure differential between the surface of the water that is open to atmosphere and the air pressure in the tubes.
Consider figure 2.  If you were to try to reinsert V2 into V1 again, you would have to push the water back down the riser tube that runs from the open to atmosphere reservoir to the black box.
Nice try though.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2011, 04:49:50 AM »
looked, understood, and it is a piston pump and air pressure dose act on V2.
when you bend the hose to pull on V2 you create a surface for air pressure to push it back in to
equalize the pressure.
thankyou for playing please play again.
fritznien



Mr.Fritznien,

You are a great man.

As desired by you I am playing again.  Please go through the attachment and kindly enlighten me about it.  I won't play again. (my tank is exhausted). Forgive me for sending file in excel.


Thanks,
Vineet.K.

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2011, 04:49:50 AM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2011, 04:57:25 AM »
I think the flaw in the reasoning is in the statement "A very interesting point here to note is that work input to the system in only energy supplied to overcome friction between tube V2 and rubber ring . . ."
This is simply not the case.  The real energy input to the system is the energy required to overcome the friction of the o-ring plus the energy to overcome the air pressure differential between the surface of the water that is open to atmosphere and the air pressure in the tubes.
Consider figure 2.  If you were to try to reinsert V2 into V1 again, you would have to push the water back down the riser tube that runs from the open to atmosphere reservoir to the black box.
Nice try though.


It is not the case.   Even when you reinsert V2 into V1 again, it pushes air (or water) from reservoir to jar without experiencing force since both ends of tube are open, making work input independent of work output.  Try it practically.

I have practically conducted this experiment.

Thanks.

Offline fritznien

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 05:33:13 AM »
nothing important has changed.
mercury replaces the rubber O rings and V1 is now a box instead of a tight cylinder.
but the operation is the same.
you still pull V2 out against air pressure to create low pressure so water can be pushed up.
using brine instead of mercury would allow you to experiment more safely.
fritznien

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 05:33:13 AM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2011, 02:42:06 PM »
you know that atmospheric pressure is equal in all directions and pressure at both ends of tube is also same. you won't pull the pipe against any air pressure which requires work

Kindly do the experiment practically.

No more arguments please.

Offline JamesBe1

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 03:01:07 AM »

It is not the case.   Even when you reinsert V2 into V1 again, it pushes air (or water) from reservoir to jar without experiencing force since both ends of tube are open, making work input independent of work output.  Try it practically.

I have practically conducted this experiment.

Thanks.

Before I build something like this, I would like to understand a little more about it.
Are you saying that when you insert V2 into V1, that it takes no energy to move the air out of the system?
Also, what do you mean when you say that "both ends of the tube are open"?  Which tube are you referring to?  The end of tube V1 is closed in your diagram, and the other end of tube V2 is connected to a hose that is connected to a box.  This doesn't appear to make sense to me.
Thanx.

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 03:01:07 AM »
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Offline Kator01

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2011, 01:30:15 PM »
Hello vineet_kiran,

let us assume the tank with water, the container the water is sucked up to and V1 is fixed to ground:

Why do you assume that there is no air-pressure on the flexible hose attached to V2 ?

According to what I can see, airpressure is acting from all sides on the flexible hose pushing it back in and the work necessary will be the the new potential energy Epot of the pumped up watermass equals m * g * h.


Regards

Kator01

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2011, 02:45:45 PM »
Medical syringe works like a reciprocating pump. When you pull the rubber piston, external atmospheric pressure straight away acts on the piston.  The idea of keeping both ends of tube V2 open is to prevent atmospheric pressure acting on it.

Please understand the concept before making comments.
It's hard to understand a concept which doesn't work. You cannot pump water with a static pressure.

Vidar

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 06:41:25 AM »
Hello vineet_kiran,

let us assume the tank with water, the container the water is sucked up to and V1 is fixed to ground:

Why do you assume that there is no air-pressure on the flexible hose attached to V2 ?

According to what I can see, airpressure is acting from all sides on the flexible hose pushing it back in and the work necessary will be the the new potential energy Epot of the pumped up watermass equals m * g * h.


Regards

Kator01


There will be air pressure on the hose all round its circumference which will only try to flatten the hose and force due to this pressure will not be in a direction opposite to direction in which the hose is pulled out. (which is same as fixing a clip on the hose and pulling it out of the container V1.  The force of clip acting on both sides of the tube in no way can affect pulling of tube out of container).    In case of piston pump force due to atmospheric pressure acts exactly in the direction opposite to movement of piston opposing the movement of piston.

Regards,

Vineet.K.








Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Pumping water with atmospheric pressure
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2011, 06:54:56 AM »
It's hard to understand a concept which doesn't work. You cannot pump water with a static pressure.

Vidar



Mr.Vidar,


When you suck the air from a tube immersed in water,  the water will be pumped into the tube by static atmospheric pressure only.   Here the working principle is difference of pressure or drop of pressure and not static pressure.

When this experiment has worked for me, it should work for you also.  Certain things are difficult to understand unless you experience it practically.   Only theoritical genious like Einstein the GREAT can understand everything theoritically.


Thanks and regards

Vineet.K.








 

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