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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 914308 times)

DrStiffler

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #540 on: June 29, 2011, 07:29:47 PM »
  For the Cal'r test, I'd much rather have your device to test, NP!  so glad that you are building a version that will fit into the tight space. 
The test will not be until the week of July 11th, and that if Prof H agrees...  I have a family trip planned starting July 18th, so I hope the cal'r tests can be done the week of July 11-16... that's my goal. 
Post:  PO Box 325, Spring City, UT 84662
UPS or other shipping:  265 East 200 North Street, Spring City, UT 84662

Thanks so much for working with me on this, NP!  I hope we succeed.
It may take a few iterations I suppose.

  @Xee2 -- correct, one could just put the "load" alone inside the calorimeter, and I'll do that for you if you request that be done.... Just define what goes INTO the cal'r and what stays outside. 

This makes some sense, but note that by putting the entire device inside, we measure the TOTAL heat output, and have a check on things -- for if the cal'r is working properly, the "efficiency" should be UNITY theoretically for each device, that is, the cal'r should capture the energy initially stored in the cap -- now  in the form of heat, integrating from all elements of the DUT.

If  "excess energy" for some reason is dumped in the toroid (for example), then we will still see this IF we place the entire circuit into the calorimeter.

@JouleSeeker
Yes you are looking at it correctly. If you first test for excess heat and find that you indeed have a gain or a mysterious lack of expected heat, then one can begin to find where the anomalous energy is coming from. In other words is it in the transistor, the core, the load? I don't think anyone would believe that a carbon resistor would in any way be at the root of the excess energy, rather a radiator thereof. The excess must come into the circuit (not generated in the circuit), otherwise Physics has a big problem. What would be found is that a diode, transistor or a special core might be the source if present. Coils themselves will interact with the lattice, provided the capacities are low. The capacity of the lattice is so low that one has a job to achieve something that will grab some of the energy. Now if it is something like the diodes, LED's or core, them it will require the minds to explore and fit a theory to it.

Sound like this is a comparative chamber (balanced) unit used for bio work, is this correct?

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #541 on: June 29, 2011, 08:39:14 PM »
removed by author. Was not correct.




« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 09:00:58 PM by xee2 »

JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #542 on: June 29, 2011, 09:06:47 PM »
  I was about to respond to you, Xee, when I saw that you had found error in your post and removed it.  Thanks.  (Note: the circuit in the cal'r will not have a battery in it at all; planning to use a cap.)

@JouleSeeker
Yes you are looking at it correctly. If you first test for excess heat and find that you indeed have a gain or a mysterious lack of expected heat, then one can begin to find where the anomalous energy is coming from. In other words is it in the transistor, the core, the load?

I don't think anyone would believe that a carbon resistor would in any way be at the root of the excess energy, rather a radiator thereof. The excess must come into the circuit (not generated in the circuit), otherwise Physics has a big problem. What would be found is that a diode, transistor or a special core might be the source if present. Coils themselves will interact with the lattice, provided the capacities are low. The capacity of the lattice is so low that one has a job to achieve something that will grab some of the energy. Now if it is something like the diodes, LED's or core, them it will require the minds to explore and fit a theory to it.


Right, agreed.


Quote
Sound like this is a comparative chamber (balanced) unit used for bio work, is this correct?

Sounds like it to me, too, but Prof H is still over in Europe.  When I sit down with him, I'll find out the details.

DrStiffler

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #543 on: June 29, 2011, 09:26:37 PM »
Quote from: JouleSeeker :Plink=topic=10773.msg293276#msg293276 date=1309374407
  I was about to respond to you, Xee, when I saw that you had found error in your post and removed it.  Thanks.  (Note: the circuit in the cal'r will not have a battery in it at all; planning to use a cap.)

Right, agreed.


Sounds like it to me, too, but Prof H is still over in Europe.  When I sit down with him, I'll find out the details.

@JouleSeeker
 Sounds very good and I am sure your Prof H will full understand his own device (not saying you do not).

Here is the results of a hurried test a few nights ago when I was suffering from a Cold? (first in 20+years) that I would be interested in how it all compares to what you will find in a few weeks. The text is from a running blog I have.

***********
Unless of course one does a heat analysis, then the measurement equipment will resolve only to a calorimeter. This is what I spent my time with last night and the results were as expected. The test was set up rapidly and fine-tuning is required, although the result is well within +/-15% where I am able under ideal conditions to resolve to +/-0.005%.

No CEC>1 is evident. In fact the test resulted in an over all heat production (entire circuit) of 93.255% of input. The circuit is not running cold; the missing heat is a result of the setup procedures and the fact that time allowed for only one test to be run. I am although fully comfortable that this circuit (the one I replicated) does not have a CEC>1
***********


nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #544 on: June 29, 2011, 10:09:23 PM »
 
@nul-points: thank you for providing the details.

Concerning the transistor: I understood you are using a PNP-type transistor (in the discussed circuit 2), which would be the BC549?

Greetings, Conrad


LOL it's getting confusing with all the variants which have been/are being tried!  :)

if you haven't seen all the earlier posts which record the progression of different variants, then i'm basing all my circuit variants round Steven's original SJ1 configuration (a Common Collector oscillator) as opposed to the JT type circuit (which is usually a Common Emitter oscillator, eg, like Xee2's)

in order to try different methods of looping, sometimes i use a PNP variant and sometimes an NPN variant

the circuit i'm constructing to send to Steven for calorimeter testing is the NPN variant, and that's why i mentioned the BC547 to him

the circuit i re-posted for you was a simplification (ie., removing the tertiary winding) of the schematic in post #345:
  link-->http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.msg291492#msg291492

which contains all the parts - i see that the transistor i used then was a 2N3906

i've also used a C560B successfully (hFE slightly greater than the 2N3906)


the second schematic i re-posted for you came from post #394:
  link-->http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.msg291904#msg291904

no extra components, just removed the tertiary winding and achieved slightly lower Pin


i'm sure you can use other PNP types (higher gain is probably better) in this variant - or you could invert the oscillator section and use an NPN transistor - both work

hope this helps

greetings
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #545 on: June 29, 2011, 10:34:31 PM »
  I was about to respond to you, Xee, when I saw that you had found error in your post and removed it.  Thanks.  (Note: the circuit in the cal'r will not have a battery in it at all; planning to use a cap.)

Right, agreed.


Sounds like it to me, too, but Prof H is still over in Europe.  When I sit down with him, I'll find out the details.

I tried to measure the circuit efficiency, but the circuit current changes if I replace the LED with a diode. So I agree with you that the only way to measure the output power is to put the LED in a calorimeter and measure the heat output.


JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #546 on: June 30, 2011, 01:49:06 AM »
  Thanks, Xee2.

This is interesting from Pop Sci:

Quote
A new alloy with unique properties can convert heat directly into electricity, according to researchers at the University of Minnesota. The alloy, a multiferroic composite of nickel, cobalt, manganese and tin, can be either non-magnetic and highly magnetic, depending on its temperature.

Multiferroic materials possess both magnetism and ferroelectricity, or a permanent electric polarization. Materials with both of these properties are very rare; check out this explainer from the National Institute of Standards and Technology if you’re interested in the electron orbital arrangements that cause these phenomena.

Related Articles
   Starting This Summer, Cars Will Harvest Their Own Waste and Turn Exhaust Into Energy
   Your Hybrid Car Is Hogging All the Rare Earth Metals
   New Nanocomposite Magnets Could Reduce the Demand for Rare Earth Elements
...
In this case, the new alloy — Ni45Co5Mn40Sn10 — undergoes a reversible phase transformation, in which one type of solid turns into another type of solid when the temperature changes, according to a news release from the University of Minnesota. Specifically, the alloy goes from being non-magnetic to highly magnetized. The temperature only needs to be raised a small amount for this to happen.

When the warmed alloy is placed near a permanent magnet, like a rare-earth magnet, the alloy’s magnetic force increases suddenly and dramatically. This produces a current in a surrounding coil, according to the researchers, led by aerospace engineering professor Richard James. Watch a piece of the alloy leap over to a permanent magnet in the video clip below.

A process called hysteresis causes some of the heat energy to be lost, but this new alloy has a low hysteresis,
the researchers say. Because of this, it could be used to convert waste heat energy into large amounts of electricity.

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #547 on: June 30, 2011, 09:49:22 PM »
 
  For the Cal'r test, I'd much rather have your device to test, NP!  so glad that you are building a version that will fit into the tight space. 
[...]


hello Steven

i've finished the 'compact' version of my SJ1 looped bifilar variant

i don't have a 'D' cell to display against in a photo, so i've shown the unit alongside an AAA cell (see below)

the 'end-on' photo shows the unit operating from a 1000uF cap (temporarily connected to the screw contacts which will accept the supply wires when loaded in the Calorimeter)

the device will be a close fit to a 'D' cell envelope, and i guess that the Calorimeter will be either copper or steel, so it remains to be seen if the circuit still operates in close proximity to the container walls in the test!

i'll try and get that posted off to you asap (may have to be after the weekend)


that new ferroic material sounds very interesting - it surely can't be long until we start to see some form of domestic level heat-to-electricity converters becoming available -  that would be a boon in many 'developing' countries!

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 
 
 

DrStiffler

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #548 on: June 30, 2011, 10:09:25 PM »


hello Steven

i've finished the 'compact' version of my SJ1 looped bifilar variant

i don't have a 'D' cell to display against in a photo, so i've shown the unit alongside an AAA cell (see below)

the 'end-on' photo shows the unit operating from a 1000uF cap (temporarily connected to the screw contacts which will accept the supply wires when loaded in the Calorimeter)

the device will be a close fit to a 'D' cell envelope, and i guess that the Calorimeter will be either copper or steel, so it remains to be seen if the circuit still operates in close proximity to the container walls in the test!

i'll try and get that posted off to you asap (may have to be after the weekend)


that new ferroic material sounds very interesting - it surely can't be long until we start to see some form of domestic level heat-to-electricity converters becoming available -  that would be a boon in many 'developing' countries!

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

A pro job!

I do not know if you might have ready access to a copper pipe to slip the unit into or may be just pull the batteries out of a flash light or (touch) and slip the unit in and see if it still works. Heck stuff it into a metal mint box or something. It would benefit as you know an early conclusion (result), if it does die in a close proximity container then are you not wasting Dr. Jones access to the device?

Oh sorry, you don't know who Stiffler is... Forgive me for offering a logical suggestion.

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #549 on: July 01, 2011, 12:55:20 AM »
 
[...] a flash light or (touch)
[...]


...did you mean to say 'torch'?

JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #550 on: July 01, 2011, 01:06:31 AM »


hello Steven

i've finished the 'compact' version of my SJ1 looped bifilar variant

i don't have a 'D' cell to display against in a photo, so i've shown the unit alongside an AAA cell (see below)

the 'end-on' photo shows the unit operating from a 1000uF cap (temporarily connected to the screw contacts which will accept the supply wires when loaded in the Calorimeter)

the device will be a close fit to a 'D' cell envelope, and i guess that the Calorimeter will be either copper or steel, so it remains to be seen if the circuit still operates in close proximity to the container walls in the test!

i'll try and get that posted off to you asap (may have to be after the weekend)...

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Very impressive work, NP.  I now have three working DUT's, including my build of a Xee2 circuit, so that makes four for testing in the cal'r!  Fun...

Xee2, Chris, anyone really who wants to build a device as we're doing, for testing in the cal'r in this first round -- pls do and let me know.

 DUT needs to fit inside a cylinder the size of a D-cell battery; I plan to use a standard cap OUTSIDE the Cal'r for these initial tests, with two wires leading in.  Will charge the cap to a specific voltage, measure voltage-start (then disconnect meter), then run down the voltage for a specific TIME, then switch off -- and then re-connect the DMM and measure the voltage-final.  Prior measurement will allow one to get the Vfinal close to what is expected, just from the time of the run.

You may let me know what voltage-range you wish to have tested, to include a "sweet spot", as you wish.  Otherwise, I will probably go from about 1.55V (single AA pre-charging the cap) down to 1.1V. 
  (Ps, my shipping address above.)

The goal of these tests is -- maximum Pout(from DUT inside cal'r) / Pinput (from cap).    I don't know if I expressed this contest-X clearly before, but the highest Pout/Pin from these initial tests will get at least a $100 incentive/prize!

(There is also a separate $100 prize for the JT-type circuit having the lowest required Pinput to light an LED visibly... but the above contest-X is of course the more significant test.)

hartiberlin

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #551 on: July 01, 2011, 01:14:21 AM »


L1 is approx 4 metres of 0.45mm enamelled copper, wound on a ferrite tube approx 30x15mm OD (obtained from Maplin, material unknown)

L1 decouples the DC supply from the oscillator and allows the LED to be driven by the resulting voltage swing across the oscillator as a whole
(providing for the possibility of some looping of energy back to the supply after each pulse)


greetings
np



Hi NP,
can you please show a scopeshot of what this L1 is doing and how it recharges the
battery together with the rest of the circuit ??
Maybe show a voltage waveform on a 1 Ohm shunt near to it ?
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #552 on: July 01, 2011, 03:03:06 AM »

Xee2, Chris, anyone really who wants to build a device as we're doing, for testing in the cal'r in this first round -- pls do and let me know.


I will not be sending a device. I am quite sure that my circuit is not over unity. The point was to show how little power it takes to light an LED.


nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #553 on: July 01, 2011, 09:24:13 AM »
 

Quote from: nul-points on June 29, 2011, 05:00:30 PM
[...]
>>(providing for the possibility of some looping of energy back to the supply after each pulse)


Hi NP,
can you please show a scopeshot of what this L1 is doing and how it recharges the battery together with the rest of the circuit ??
Maybe show a voltage waveform on a 1 Ohm shunt near to it ?
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

hi Stefan

here is a trace recorded across a 1 ohm current sensing resistor in series with a 1.6V supply (2x AAA NiMH, depleted)

as you can see, each time the transistor is triggered there is a pulse of current supplied to the oscillator from the supply, followed immediately by a pulse of current in the opposite direction (ie. returned to the supply)

exporting the trace data into Excel shows that the energy supplied to the oscillator is 189 units per pulse, and the energy returned to the supply is 149 units per pulse (ie. the net energy converted is 40 units per pulse)

so approximately three-quarters of the energy transferred from the supply, each cycle, gets returned to the supply (in this case) - this means that the system is nearly five times as efficient as it would be without any energy feedback to the supply

of course, this is not the only energy conversion per cycle - there will be energy transmitted as light, and also some energy dissipated as heat

the calorimeter tests, will enable us to quantify these other energy 'outputs' more accurately and get a better understanding of why the original 'scope alone' results show a value for 'n' > 1

by using a variety of different (but related) circuit types in the tests, it should provide more insight into a generic understanding of how and where energy is being converted to work in this kind of oscillator

hope this helps
np

[EDIT: replaced results using alkaline cells as a supply, with results using NiMH]


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

 
 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 10:19:04 AM by nul-points »

JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #554 on: July 01, 2011, 03:18:13 PM »
  Thanks for this waveform and additional information, NP -- very insightful.


I will not be sending a device. I am quite sure that my circuit is not over unity. The point was to show how little power it takes to light an LED.

Understood, Xee2 -- no problem.