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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 914361 times)

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #525 on: June 29, 2011, 03:36:45 PM »

hence Steven's guideline of a voltage range between 2.55V and 1.5V 


If you want to use 2.55 volts you can. But, as you noted, to get lowest power consumption the battery voltage should be as low as possible. The test voltages I use are what ever the battery voltage happens to be when I do the test.




nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #526 on: June 29, 2011, 03:48:18 PM »

If you want to use 2.55 volts you can. But, as you noted, to get lowest power consumption the battery voltage should be as low as possible. The test voltages I use are what ever the battery voltage happens to be when I do the test.


you can use any voltage you like (within the transistor device operating limits) for your own testing

in that case, however, the results will have no meaning for comparing between different approaches and circuits - which is why Steven asked people to make their measurements within his guidelines
 


xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #527 on: June 29, 2011, 04:00:19 PM »
may be one can combine Per-Johan's idea (third coil on the toroid with full bridge rectifier) and your low power JT circuit in order to feed back power to the 10.000µF capacitor? This should reduce the power consumption even more.

Hi Conrad,
My testing has shown that there is no gain in efficiency by using an additional coil on the toroid. I only use the extra coil to get higher output voltages.


xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #528 on: June 29, 2011, 04:10:19 PM »

you can use any voltage you like (within the transistor device operating limits) for your own testing

in that case, however, the results will have no meaning for comparing between different approaches and circuits - which is why Steven asked people to make their measurements within his guidelines

I am sorry my tests have no meaning for you. To me the meaning is quite clear - if you want to reduce power consumption you should reduce the input voltage.


JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #529 on: June 29, 2011, 04:13:52 PM »


thanks for the kind words as always, Steven...

i'll just bask in those words a little longer - before having to point out that your quote about OU statistics must have been posted by someone other than me!  :)

here is my contribution to the list of reported OU development, hopefully with a reasonably mainstream emphasis:-

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

   Oops, I thought you posted this, but apologize for the evident mistake... 
And thanks for your sense of humor, NP, gave me a hearty laugh this morning.

Xee2 -- yes, by increasing the cap feeding the base transistor, you decrease the pulse-rate on the LED (to 18 Hz) so that it flickers, and this decreases the input power.  It is remarkable to get the device to run for over 80 minutes on a 10,000 uF cap, but at the same time, let's note that decreasing the rep rate does not (almost certainly) change the Pout/Pin ratio.  Increasing that ratio, to a value > unity, is the major goal of this line of research.
 

conradelektro

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #530 on: June 29, 2011, 04:28:32 PM »
hi Conrad

the most 'efficient' config i've been able to achieve has been to use a different approach to Looping and DC Decoupling and remove the tertiary winding altogether
(see second schematic below)

hope this helps
np
http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

@nul-points: thank you for (re)posting the circuits.

What is a useful value of C1 in the second circuit?

What kind of coil is L1 (number of turns, material) in the second circuit?

Greetings, Conrad

JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #531 on: June 29, 2011, 04:30:07 PM »
  Let me hasten to add that I plan to place into the calorimeter (in about two weeks, when Prof H gets back from Europe) -- in separate tests with a "standard" cap for the input power:

1.  the "original" sj1 circuit

2.  my build of the Xee2 circuit, which runs for about 18 minutes on a 10,000uF cap

3.  my build of the NP circuit shown on the previous page (and earlier), still working on it...

4.  I may also include Chris' circuit discussed early on in this thread.

I haven't found any other circuits yet that look promising enough -- and SMALL enough -- for the calorimeter tests. (E.g., Laneal's test was not an apparent improvement; but I could reconsider this.)  Suggestions welcomed!
    The calo.'s cavity is the size of a D-cell battery, the one Prof H has talked about letting me use.  (There are larger calorimeters of course, but those would be for future studies...)

@NP:  About your circuit with bifilar on the toroid (not trifilar), I have questions:

A.  Is the 1N5817 necessary?  it appears to have a breakdown voltage of 20V, which does not seem particularly relevant to this circuit.  I could get the 1N5817 if you recommend it, however.

B.  Your L1 of approx 0.5mH -- what kind of inductor is this?  or can it be an off-the-shelf inductor of ~0.5mH?

C.  When you say T1 is approx 50:50, are you referring to 50 windings in each?  on what type of toroid?

JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #532 on: June 29, 2011, 04:39:13 PM »
PS --  if anyone (including Xee2 and NP and Chris) wishes to send me HIS own DUT, I would be glad to put it into the calorimeter for testing, assuming I can get enough time on the calo...  As long as I'm not asked to sign a long-term NDA (I could understand signing a short-term NDA and giving the inventor the calorimeter results immediately following the tests.)

 Note again the present tight volume restriction -- it needs to fit into a cylindrical cavity the size of a D-cell battery; and very thin wires are permitted leading from the outside to the DUT.

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #533 on: June 29, 2011, 04:41:48 PM »

I am sorry my tests have no meaning for you
[...]

those are not my words

this is what i said:

[...]
in that case, however, the results will have no meaning for comparing between different approaches and circuits - which is why Steven asked people to make their measurements within his guidelines

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #534 on: June 29, 2011, 05:00:30 PM »
 
[...]
What is a useful value of C1 in the second circuit?

What kind of coil is L1 (number of turns, material) in the second circuit?

Greetings, Conrad


C1 mostly decides the repetition of the o/p pulse 'burst' (while keeping other component values the same)

i've been using values between 0.1uF and 0.001uF, as required, to fit within Steven's requirements here for low-power consumption, LED visibility down to lower voltage supply, and less-visible flicker

L1 is approx 4 metres of 0.45mm enamelled copper, wound on a ferrite tube approx 30x15mm OD (obtained from Maplin, material unknown)

L1 decouples the DC supply from the oscillator and allows the LED to be driven by the resulting voltage swing across the oscillator as a whole
(providing for the possibility of some looping of energy back to the supply after each pulse)


greetings
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #535 on: June 29, 2011, 05:32:30 PM »
 
[...]
@NP:
[...]
A.  Is the 1N5817 necessary?  it appears to have a breakdown voltage of 20V, which does not seem particularly relevant to this circuit.  I could get the 1N5817 if you recommend it, however.

B.  Your L1 of approx 0.5mH -- what kind of inductor is this?  or can it be an off-the-shelf inductor of ~0.5mH?

C.  When you say T1 is approx 50:50, are you referring to 50 windings in each?  on what type of toroid?


aha - now it's my turn to go back and read the thread!  i've been re-constructing one of my circuits into a format for you to fit into a 'D' cell volume!  but it sounds like you intend to fabricate each of our circuits yourself?    LOL

my multi-toroid setup wouldn't fit the space requirements, so i've rewound my coil and inductor on ferrite tubes, in solenoid form

the cores & L1 winding are as per my previous posting just now to Conrad
(30x15mm OD, 7mm ID, ferrite); the oscillator coil is a bifilar wind of 2 strands of approx 3 metres of 0.45mm enamelled copper

C1 is 0.001uF; Tr is BC547

the diode(s) used for DC biasing of the transistor isn't critical - i'm just using the reverse leakage current as a high impedance supply for the base, rather than a resistor - but it's a question of 'select-on-test', unfortunately! 

on the unit i've just been making to send you, i'm using a 1N5817 in series with an OA93 to give reasonably flicker-free LED operation down to below a volt, with a power draw similar to my previous results obtained with the larger toroids

i'm happy to continue finishing off this more compact version and posting to you, c/o BYU, if that helps (assuming Calr. availability timing is met)


let me know what you think

thanks
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #536 on: June 29, 2011, 05:35:03 PM »
Note again the present tight volume restriction -- it needs to fit into a cylindrical cavity the size of a D-cell battery; and very thin wires are permitted leading from the outside to the DUT.

Normally, efficiency is the ratio of input power to power delivered to a load. If that convention is followed, only the load resistor needs to be put in the calorimeter.


conradelektro

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #537 on: June 29, 2011, 05:55:41 PM »
C1 is 0.001uF; Tr is BC547

thanks
np

@nul-points: thank you for providing the details.

Concerning the transistor: I understood you are using a PNP-type transistor (in the discussed circuit 2), which would be the BC549?

Greetings, Conrad

JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #538 on: June 29, 2011, 06:09:03 PM »


aha - now it's my turn to go back and read the thread!  i've been re-constructing one of my circuits into a format for you to fit into a 'D' cell volume!  but it sounds like you intend to fabricate each of our circuits yourself?    LOL

my multi-toroid setup wouldn't fit the space requirements, so i've rewound my coil and inductor on ferrite tubes, in solenoid form

the cores & L1 winding are as per my previous posting just now to Conrad
(30x15mm OD, 7mm ID, ferrite); the oscillator coil is a bifilar wind of 2 strands of approx 3 metres of 0.45mm enamelled copper

C1 is 0.001uF; Tr is BC547

the diode(s) used for DC biasing of the transistor isn't critical - i'm just using the reverse leakage current as a high impedance supply for the base, rather than a resistor - but it's a question of 'select-on-test', unfortunately! 

on the unit i've just been making to send you, i'm using a 1N5817 in series with an OA93 to give reasonably flicker-free LED operation down to below a volt, with a power draw similar to my previous results obtained with the larger toroids

i'm happy to continue finishing off this more compact version and posting to you, c/o BYU, if that helps (assuming Calr. availability timing is met)


let me know what you think

thanks
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

  For the Cal'r test, I'd much rather have your device to test, NP!  so glad that you are building a version that will fit into the tight space. 
The test will not be until the week of July 11th, and that if Prof H agrees...  I have a family trip planned starting July 18th, so I hope the cal'r tests can be done the week of July 11-16... that's my goal. 
Post:  PO Box 325, Spring City, UT 84662
UPS or other shipping:  265 East 200 North Street, Spring City, UT 84662

Thanks so much for working with me on this, NP!  I hope we succeed.
It may take a few iterations I suppose.

  @Xee2 -- correct, one could just put the "load" alone inside the calorimeter, and I'll do that for you if you request that be done.... Just define what goes INTO the cal'r and what stays outside. 

This makes some sense, but note that by putting the entire device inside, we measure the TOTAL heat output, and have a check on things -- for if the cal'r is working properly, the "efficiency" should be UNITY theoretically for each device, that is, the cal'r should capture the energy initially stored in the cap -- now  in the form of heat, integrating from all elements of the DUT.

If  "excess energy" for some reason is dumped in the toroid (for example), then we will still see this IF we place the entire circuit into the calorimeter.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 06:52:04 PM by JouleSeeker »

Mk1

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #539 on: June 29, 2011, 07:10:15 PM »
@all

In the old days when they spoke of computer core it was referring to a bunch of toroid wired together , some for logic operation some for memory . The later one dose imply storing energy ...

I also wonder if you have seen this

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w54lxNS3Hus


Basically i am pulling the secondary load without loading the transistor .

The coil it self goes one way and comes back over it self  (a la bifilar ) and cross in the center of the toroid .

Mark