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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 914403 times)

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #390 on: June 20, 2011, 09:12:21 PM »
I'm seeking the way to turn on/off transistor with minimal influence on transformer while still to sense the change to open transistor.

Short base to emitter.

JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #391 on: June 20, 2011, 10:06:55 PM »
  I have looked at the waveforms produced by the JT-variant by Xee2 (my build) -- see attached.  I have added a 1ohm R in series with the LED, and the waveform shows the voltage drop across this R:  V=IR = I since R=1.

Upper left shows one pair of pulses typical of operating in the region of interest (below the critical voltage as defined in my recent post above).  IOW, the LED has turned OFF and is now back ON.

Lower left expands the first pulse.
Right waveforms are of the right-most pulse of the pair; note that the right-most pulses differ, as seen by juxtapoing two observed waveforms.
Interesting (IMHO).

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #392 on: June 20, 2011, 11:38:21 PM »
  I have looked at the waveforms produced by the JT-variant by Xee2 (my build) -- see attached.  I have added a 1ohm R in series with the LED, and the waveform shows the voltage drop across this R:  V=IR = I since R=1.

Upper left shows one pair of pulses typical of operating in the region of interest (below the critical voltage as defined in my recent post above).  IOW, the LED has turned OFF and is now back ON.

Lower left expands the first pulse.
Right waveforms are of the right-most pulse of the pair; note that the right-most pulses differ, as seen by juxtapoing two observed waveforms.
Interesting (IMHO).

I do not have a real scope (just a toy). But I have seen that there are often two pulses. This makes it hard to measure frequency without a scope (I would measure frequency by time between large pulses). I can not think of any reason why the waveform does not repeat.




NickZ

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #393 on: June 21, 2011, 02:32:15 AM »
   @ JS:
  That effect may be caused by the pot.  Try a different one, of higher or lower value, I'll bet it goes out and on again at a different voltage. But, that may not be very important in relation to finding the sweet spot.

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #394 on: June 21, 2011, 03:43:18 AM »
 
Steven

i made an interesting discovery - the tertiary winding for the o/p in my previous circuit is  redundant!  (see below for updated schematic)

the latest circuit, using a 1000uF 35V cap as C2 (all other other parts as posted above) takes 687 seconds (11min 27sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.55V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.55V => 3.251mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
                    -------
           Ein: 2.126mJ

Pav: 2.126/687 = 3.1uW (including cap leakage)


thanks
np


PS  if the 'blanking' voltage is different between two different coloured LEDs and nothing else changed in the circuit, presumably then it's related to the excitation levels involved in the different turn-on and forward-voltage drop characteristics of different colour LEDs?


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #395 on: June 21, 2011, 05:48:44 AM »
ENERGY CALCULATION USING VOLTAGE CHANGE

10,000 uF capacitor
start voltage = 1.366
end voltage = 0.936
time = 21 minutes = 21 * 60 seconds = 1260 sec.

Joules = 0.5*C*(V1^2 - V2^2) = 0.5*10000e-6*(1.366^2 - 0.936^2) = 0.0049493

watts = Joules / seconds = 0.0049493 / 1260 = 3.9 uW


JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #396 on: June 21, 2011, 06:10:04 AM »

Steven

i made an interesting discovery - the tertiary winding for the o/p in my previous circuit is  redundant!  (see below for updated schematic)

the latest circuit, using a 1000uF 35V cap as C2 (all other other parts as posted above) takes 687 seconds (11min 27sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.55V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.55V => 3.251mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
                    -------
           Ein: 2.126mJ

Pav: 2.126/687 = 3.1uW (including cap leakage)


thanks
np


PS  if the 'blanking' voltage is different between two different coloured LEDs and nothing else changed in the circuit, presumably then it's related to the excitation levels involved in the different turn-on and forward-voltage drop characteristics of different colour LEDs?


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Remarkable achievement, NP!   Hope you keep experimenting... you might get to a self-runner yet ;)  .
 (Has the 3.1uW been corrected yet for cap leakage?)
 I like the simplicity of this circuit of yours; and of Xee2's circuit.

@Nick:  Yes, increasing the R in series with the LED increases the voltage at which the LED turns off, then back on.  For 21 ohms = R, the green LED goes off at ~ 1.694V and back on (with less power consumption) at 1.664 V.  Interestingly, the Pinput calculated using the cap/time method is about the same for R= 21 ohms (9.8uW) as for R=1 ohm.

In any case, NP's circuit is still the front-runner with regard to the LOWEST Pinput.  (NP, have you found a 1N4148 yet?)


JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #397 on: June 21, 2011, 06:32:17 AM »
Just saw your post, Xee2 -- 3.9uW is also remarkable!  Thanks for using the cap/time method.
ENERGY CALCULATION USING VOLTAGE CHANGE

10,000 uF capacitor
start voltage = 1.366
end voltage = 0.936
time = 21 minutes = 21 * 60 seconds = 1260 sec.

Joules = 0.5*C*(V1^2 - V2^2) = 0.5*10000e-6*(1.366^2 - 0.936^2) = 0.0049493

watts = Joules / seconds = 0.0049493 / 1260 = 3.9 uW

Now, NP is going from about 2.55V down to 1.5 V and you're going from 1.366V to  0.936V.  (My best Pinput to date is ~7.2mW, not in the running... ;)  )
To compare circuits, it is important to have consistent starting and ending voltages.

I've observed with my Xee2 replication (as explained above) that below a critical voltage, the Pinput consumed goes down dramatically, so this circuit should be tested below your 1.37 volts. 

1.  Can you both test from 1.37 V down to 1.10 V, using the cap/time method?  That should give plenty of time to get an accurate reading.  You may use different caps as you wish, but please give the correction for cap leakage (done by seeing how the cap voltage drops over the same time as the run -- but without cap connected to the DUT. Subtract this "effective cap-power loss" from the measured Pinput. This leakage correction will be smaller for shorter time in the run).

2.  AND, if you have a 1N4148 diode available, pls repeat the test with this "standard diode" in place of the LED. 



We still have some days left in the "competition" and you guys have done remarkably well, and I htink we've learned a lot (I know I have).  Actually, I'd like to move the "end date" for the contest up to July 1st, 2011, if no one objects.  Fast recent progress suggests this change.  And my wife says we have a trip to see grandchildren a bit later in the month, so would like to get closure on the contest before we go.

Thanks, guys!  any others want to jump in?   Lowest Pinput (input power) consumed (with a few conditions stipulated above) gets the prize.

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #398 on: June 21, 2011, 01:10:21 PM »

Thanks, guys!  any others want to jump in?   Lowest Pinput (input power) consumed (with a few conditions stipulated above) gets the prize.


I am not in the contest. My posts were to show what a standard Joule thief circuit can do.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 01:54:06 PM by xee2 »

JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #399 on: June 21, 2011, 03:02:32 PM »
   I understand, Xee2 -- thanks for contributing significantly to the discussion.  The purpose of the "contest" was for learning and to have a little fun while doing it. 
Do you have any suggestion of why your JT draws so little power?  did you find that one element was "most" important to this effect?

BTW -- Where are Kooler and Clanzers? I sincerely hope they are all right...  I rather hoped they would contribute to the discussion also.

   Anyway, I have checked my "Xee2 replication" and found that with a 1N4148, the power usage (Pinput) INCREASES by about 40% with the 1N4148 compared to a green LED, and also would not have allowed me to SEE the change in energy usage as the voltage from the cap dropped through a critical value.  Further, a red LED I have draws more power than the green LED I have... a bit surprising, but observed.

 SO -- I'm dropping the request of using a 1N4148 in place of the LED.  The LED is an active part of the DUT and the experimenter is allowed therefore to select the LED of his/her choice.  Likewise the voltage range of choice. I'm just asking that the cap/time method be used -- and I thank you fellows for using this method here to test your devices, to allow some comparisons using this method. 

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #400 on: June 21, 2011, 03:40:03 PM »
 
[...]
NP   Hope you keep experimenting... you might get to a self-runner yet ;)  .
[...]



good morning Steven

i can't see me either getting a self-runner or even winning a competition with my test circuit - i don't think that the LED is visible much below 1.2V!!


i've rerun the cap/time tests for the reduced voltage as requested and it's looking like my LED/circuit combination is already below its 'critical voltage', because i can't state categorically that the LED is still visibly lit at 1.10V

maybe there's a basic performance difference between the usual JT oscillator config (as used by Xee2) which is a 'Common Emitter' type oscillator, and your SJ1 config which is a 'Common Collector' type oscillator?

i've used your SJ1 config (my PNP variant) for all these tests so far - at 1.10V supply the oscillator is still generating positive peaks of approx 2V, even though it's very difficult to see if the LED is still lit

anyway, the cap voltage/timing results for this test are as follows:

the circuit takes 191 seconds (3min 11sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 1.37V to 1.10V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
1.37V => 0.938mJ
1.10V => 0.605mJ
         -------
    Ein: 0.333mJ

Pav: 0.333/191 = 1.74uW


cap leakage for 191 seconds from 1.37V:
1.370V => 0.938mJ
1.367V => 0.934mJ
          --------
    Ein: 0.004mJ

the cap leakage is less than 0.25%, which i think can be ignored (both here and in the previous 2.55V -> 1.5V test)

at least i have a better cap now for subsequent tests, even if my present LED/circuit is not so good!

i will try and get a more accurate capacity value for it, to use in future


i haven't found my 1N4148s yet (so will buy some more) - but i was thinking about your aim to standardise LEDs and had an idea for a possible solution:

Opto coupler devices contain an LED and these kinds of parts are more likely to be available as a standard distributed item than a particular LED part

they would only need to be used for the standard reference measurement - the usual visible LED could be used to experiment with the circuit for optimum visual results

an opto coupler would also open up possibilities to take some measurements direct from the transistor o/p

 - either using a filtered DVM resistance range reading, like i used a few weeks back as a comparison with the internal LED DC power consumption;

 - or making a simple amplifier circuit to provide a voltage o/p representing the DC average of the LED continuous power which could either be measured by DVM for 'spot readings' or be logged for graphs or accummulated data


just an idea


thanks
np



http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 


JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #401 on: June 21, 2011, 03:47:49 PM »
Just saw your post, NP -- good morning!  :)

Quote
i don't think that the LED is visible much below 1.2V!!


i've rerun the cap/time tests for the reduced voltage as requested and it's looking like my LED/circuit combination is already below its 'critical voltage', because i can't state categorically that the LED is still visibly lit at 1.10V  -- NP

As noted this morning above, I've relaxed the request to run at a "common" voltage-range (also the request for using a 1N4148) since the device itself is affected significantly by the choice of LED (or diode) and by the voltage range. 

LED-off, then back-on effect:  I have re-confirmed the effect with my build of Xee2's circuit, as the voltage from the cap drops, the LED goes OUT then comes back on at a lower voltage -- and at much lower energy usage.  With a 5-ohm resistor in series with the green LED in my circuit, the LED goes out at 1.665 V and then, after several seconds as the cap loses voltage very slowly, the LED comes back on (very visibly) at 1.631 V.  I was glad to learn about this effect.

  I am also pleased that also that Xee's circuit allows resistance in series with the LED and works fine.  I get roughly the same power usage (Pinput) with 1, 5, and 21 ohms in series with the LED.    I did burn out two MPSA06 transistors yesterday in the process of playing with the circuit...   :-\    Not sure how I did that.

NickZ

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #402 on: June 21, 2011, 04:13:49 PM »
  @ JS:
   You had mentioned that your voltage test with the single AA showed hardly no discharge rate.  Did that change now???
   My BwJt are still discharging the AA battery in two days.  So, I have not really seen the benefit of this circuit yet.
   I'll bet the capacitor test will only show discharging. While your first days test with the AA showed no discharge of the battery. 

xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #403 on: June 21, 2011, 04:24:47 PM »

I made some small changes to the very low power Joule thief video.
The new link is >>>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHdhMZzwQ_g


NickZ

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #404 on: June 21, 2011, 04:26:20 PM »
   If the 5 of a buck 1" Goldmine ferrite toroids are not available, maybe the original Hartley type of air coil can be used instead. It was wound on a straw using 50 turns one way and 25 turns in the opposite direction.
   There may be loses due to the ferrite cores.  An air core may provide less losses, may be worth testing.
   The different types of cores will effect the result even when the other components are all the same.  I have several different cores going going 24/7, but they are all discharging the battery.  So, there must be a trick or two to learn still.